European nightcrawlers - really red worms?

[LadySharon]

Hi. I JUST found this forum - it was a link from Scott F's site.

A week ago I was doing searchs on the whole vitimin b deficiency deal and came accross some articals on gartersnake.info - unfortatly when I tryed to contact the site person/persons with a question the contact form would not work. I've tryed several days now.

Background - I got garters because I didn't want to feed mice to a snake (otherwise I'd have just bought kings or corns) . I've ALWAYS fed goldfish and have several nice size adults. A few years ago however, I heard about this vit b problem (and I can't spell the "T" words... :p ) and started adding smelts (frozen) with a reptile vitimin supliment. (The fish are whole ... split down the middle)

Most of my snakes like to eat the smelts first- so no problems there... BUT I can't feed them to babies. I generaly TRY earthworms... but now I'm wondering if I've been suckered into feeding the wrong worms.

Anyway I copied the message I tryed to give to gartersnake.info into a word document and I will copy paste it here. Note- I am really anal about some things and I won't just go to walmart to pick up what they are calling "nightcrawlers" I want to order a bunch on-line and use them in a worm bin... which is what I've been doing with the european "nightcrawlers" - but now I'm wondering if they are really what they seem. If I'm going to buy "nightcrawlers" from anywhere I'd want to know the latin name.

Anyway see below: (some info may be repeated)


I have fed "nightcrawlers" to my baby snakes in the past and now I'm concerned that I may not really be feeding them nightcrawlers. (On a side note I bought garter snakes so I wouldn't have to feed them mice. I used to have gerbils as pets and just don't like the idea of feeding mammal to a snake. and now am appalled to find out that the all or mostly fish diet I use may actually be harming them. I DO use supplements now - but it's hard to supplement a baby that will only eat moving things in a food bowl - and it's easier to put supplements on worms)

ANYWAY. right now so called European nightcrawlers are advertised everywhere as bait worms, composting worms, worms you can feed to reptiles etc. but... now I have discovered that they have the same genies (spelling?) name as red worms.

I was reading your article: Feeding Earthworms: Red Wigglers vs. Nightcrawlers - gartersnake.info (http://www.gartersnake.info/articles/001634_feeding_earthworms_.phtml)

and grew concerned when I discovered that red wigglers are Eisenia Foetida and European "nightcrawlers" are Eisenia Hortensis"

but I can't tell if any place sells the "Lumbricus terrestris" - and if I can use them in the worm bin I have (to raise)

So the question is... are European nightcrawlers ok to feed to garter snakes or are they really red worms in disguise?

Thanks for any help.
- Sharon



Also if you know another way to contact the people at gartersnake.info - please let me know. :)

[Cazador]

Hi Sharon,

Have a look at this thread (http://www.thamnophis.com/forum/urgent-care/358-thiaminase-red-worms.html#post3800) for a simple test to determine whether you're feeding red wigglers or nightcrawlers.

Rick

[LadySharon]

Hi. Thanks for the reply. though I already know whta red wigglers are.

The problem stems in the latin names being simlar and therefore the possiblity of the worms having the same problems.

that is... are european "nightcrawlers" (there is a reason why I put this in quotes - you can name any big worm a nightcrawler as a commin name - doesn't mean they are the same as other worms named nightcrawler.) really just larger red worms?

Eisenia Foetida - latin name for "red wiggler"
Eisenia Hortensis - latin name for the European "nightcrawlers"

I have even seen some articals refering to them as europe's redworm.
these nightcrawlers would be DIFFERENT then the Lumbricus terrestris - or if I remember correctly - canidian nightcrawlers - which are/were commenly sold as bait worms before the european nightcrawlers came on the seane.

I'd like to buy worms in bulk online but I want to make sure what they are selling are REALLY safe even if they are labeled "nightcrawlers"

I'm starting to repeat myself here - sorry.

I really wish I could just get ahold of the person who wrote the artical to begin with. :(:

Do the people from gartersnake.info post here?

- Sharon

[Cazador]

The only one I know from gartersnake.info is Jonathan Crowe, and I know he posts on Yahoo's garter snake forum (gartersnake : In recent years, interest has grown in t (http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/gartersnake/)).

On a different subject, are you from the US or Europe? Your flag shows that you're from the US, but you're asking about European nightcrawlers. If you'd like to make the change, you could click on the "Edit Profile" link near the top left. Then scroll down to the "Additional Information" box at the bottom of the page, and use the "Home Country" box to change your settings. Regards,

Rick

[LadySharon]

Yes I'm really from the US. - colorado to be exact. European NCs are being sold in the us. Here is a google search: "european nightcrawlers" - Google Search (http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=%22european+nightcrawlers%22&safe=active)

For example these people: European Nightcrawlers & Redworms, Vermiculture Composting, Worm Farming Supplies (http://www.vermitechnology.com/) are in florida.

Of course not all of the compaines on the list are in the US.

Here is a quote from a site about them: "European Nightcrawlers (Eisenia hortensis) are also known as the Belgian Worm, Super Red, Carolina Crawlers and Blue Worms. The most fitting name is "Giant Redworm".
European Nightcrawlers grow to be 3-8 inches long, and are 2 or 3 times bigger than their smaller cousins, the red wigglers. When they are not stretched out, they are as thick as a pencil"

site: Raising European Nightcrawlers (http://carolinapetsupply.com/european_nightcrawlers.htm)

I also now see a link at the bottom compairing europeans with canadians... I havn't seen that before (google puts up slightly different sites when I search) so I'll check that out.

My big fear is that these "european nightcrawlers" are really giant red worms and have the same problem as red wigglers - if so then I shouldn't be feeding them to my snakes.

- Sharon

[adamanteus]

Speaking as a European, I've never heard of them. "Nightcrawlers" is not a name we ever use in the UK. I'm afraid I can't help much, but as they are in the same genus as your red wrigglers I would feel inclined to err on the side of caution myself.

[Cazador]

I'd offer the same advice as James. Error on the side of caution and stay away from Eisenia sp. One of the things that make red wigglers so attractive to vermiculture is that they remain where you put them and don't crawl away from your compost. I hope you'll follow up with us if you find the right answer from Jonathan.

Meanwhile, I'd suggest going to Wal Mart (or similar) and buying a few dozen Canadian nightcrawlers and then giving them the crawling test just to be sure. See if you can keep them alive and reproducing before ordering a bunch online. Best of luck,

Rick

[KITKAT]

The genus of the "nightcrawler" is LUMBRICUS. That's the nice thing about scientific names... they are the same in any language!;)

[Stefan-A]

Yeah, but they might not be the same tomorrow. :D Common names last for centuries. ;)

[RedSided]

Red wigglers from the Us are what we here in the uk call tiger worms, and as far as I know are the same, mainly due to the clearly visible yellow bands they have.
They also secreet a foul smelling toxic substance.

Notice the coloration, they are often used to compost, because, as it has been said before they like to stay local.

http://www.thamnophis.com/thamphotos/data//500/red_wiggler.JPG

I think these are the thiaminase containing type.

As far as im aware the earthworm is not toxic, but don't take my word for it.I often use them to supplement a mouse diet as a snack. They are noticably larget than red wigglers , and they do not smell.

They are also able to crawl long distances and are often found crawling accross my lawn.

Hope this helps

[LadySharon]

The genus of the "nightcrawler" is LUMBRICUS. That's the nice thing about scientific names... they are the same in any language!;)

yep. that's why my concern. I have tarantulas as well - and when I bought my first last year I accessed a bbs on them and quickly found out most people perfer you to use the latin names not the common ones - as a pet store could sell several different speices under the same common name... so in this case just because something is called commonly a "nightcrawler" doesn't mean we are talking the same thing....

an apple and an orange are both fruit for example.

- Sharon

[LadySharon]

thanks for the replys - I think I'll try that forum on yahoo too... I hope it isn't a "group" though... i've joined stuff like that in the past and posted once.

I'd rather be able to post as a guest.