Rethinking Food; Eartworms are not native to Northern US and Canada

[Selkielass]

While researching raising and keeping worms for feeding I came across some information that floored me.
Worms are not native to the Great Lakes region, nor through much of the Northern US and Canada. Glaciers pushed Native worm species South and west, and all species currently found in these northern areas are Non-native, invasive foreign species.

Night crawlers are European, Red Wigglers Eurasian. Forest ecosystems in the Great Lakes regions are being disrupted by introduced worm populations that are causing major changes in the ecology of the forest floor.

See;
Great Lakes Worm Watch :: Forest ecology and worms (http://www.nrri.umn.edu/worms/forest/index.html)
bootstrap analysis: as the worms turn (http://nuthatch.typepad.com/ba/2005/08/invasive_specie.html)
Michigan Tech Media Relations Story#57 - Earthworms Endangering Rare Northern Ferns (http://www.admin.mtu.edu/urel/news/media_relations/57/)

What does this mean to us?

If I'm interpreting this information correctly, it means that garters and similar snakes in these areas would *not* have been eating worms since the area was recolonized after the last glaciation. Their primary natural diet *has* to be something else- worms are only common, even since introduction my man, in towns, areas agriculturally developed by man, and near roads where egg cases were probably brought in by vehicles.

So, here is what I'm left wondering; What have wild garters in these northern regions *actually* been eating for the last 10,000 years or so?
It seems we can't simply write it off as earthworms anymore.

[Stefan-A]

So, here is what I'm left wondering; What have wild garters in these northern regions *actually* been eating for the last 10,000 years or so?
It seems we can't simply write it off as earthworms anymore.
If I remember correctly, the species found in (roughly) that region should be two generalists, two slug & leech specialists and two amphibian specialists.

[Selkielass]

Michigan list here; DNR - Michigan's Snakes (http://www.michigan.gov/dnr/0,1607,7-153-10370_12145_12201-61219--,00.html)

I agree with you on the slugs leeches and amphibians, but I'm a bit stymied by the fact that, at least in the areas I have searched, not terribly abundant. (And all heavily colonized by worms.)
I wonder if Garter numbers have increased in response to the availablity of this 'new' food source.
I also can't shake the feeling that worms may be garter junk food- delicious stuff they will jump on with relish when they can get it, but a long way from being nutritionally complete.

Slugs would provide a good bit more calcium wouldn't they? Descriptions of duff laden Native woods lead me to think slugs would have been a lot more abundant. Has anyone experimented with raising and feeding native slugs?

I'm tossing this out here to get people thinking and discussing- the more we can figure out about how they would have lived in the wild, the better we can duplicate those needs in captivity. Small litters and mysterious sicknesses lead me to think there is a lot left to study and figure out.

[Stefan-A]

I agree with you on the slugs leeches and amphibians, but I'm a bit stymied by the fact that, at least in the areas I have searched, not terribly abundant. (And all heavily colonized by worms.)
The thing is, you'd need to know the situation at least 300-500 years ago. Not just before the worms came, but before habitat destruction was a problem.


I wonder if Garter numbers have increased in response to the availablity of this 'new' food source.Not at all impossible. We know that has happened before, eg. with birds that benefit from farming.


I also can't shake the feeling that worms may be garter junk food- delicious stuff they will jump on with relish when they can get it, but a long way from being nutritionally complete. If it was that bad, it should at the very least have started a rapid decline of the populations. Insufficient data.

[ConcinusMan]

It doesn't mean a dang thing to me or my snakes. Earthworms here now and garters are chowing down on them.(night crawlers)

What a population or lineage of wild garters eat naturally adjusts according to what is available and many other variables. Even if the change in food supply happens suddenly, say over a period of 50 years or so. Fuggitabout 10,000 years. If I had that long, I could probabably get all those generations to go from thriving on amphibians to surviving on gummy worms in that time. (not really :rolleyes: )

The wild snakes found within at least a 60 mile radius of my location would have been flooded out with biblical proportions of water, and intermittent glaciation up to hundreds of meters thick. That lasted for several thousand years. By 10,000 years ago, there were no snakes here and glaciation hasn't returned. In the past 10,000 years, the garters moved in and thrived with whatever is available.

Man during that time was eating a bunch of crap we wouldn't consider eating now and risking his life to get it. I could see it now, some guy walks into a bar in the northern central U.S. and asks for an order of medium rare mammoth...

[mb90078]

I wonder if Garter numbers have increased in response to the availablity of this 'new' food source.




I also can't shake the feeling that worms may be garter junk food- delicious stuff they will jump on with relish when they can get it, but a long way from being nutritionally complete.

I tend to agree much more closely from the first idea than the second. I would tend to think that even though these may be "foreign" species, they were beneficial, and in this case, may have helped the garter population to flourish. Maybe without the introduction of earthworms, we wouldn't have garters today (even if they existed prior to the introduction). Just something to think about, rather than demonizing them as a food source, solely due to the fact they haven't been here since the beginning of time.

[guidofatherof5]

[QUOTE=Selkielass;136742]
I also can't shake the feeling that worms may be garter junk food- delicious stuff they will jump on with relish when they can get it, but a long way from being nutritionally complete.
QUOTE]

I think there is more to night crawlers than we may realize. They may have a high water content but whatever is left must be doing something right. The main source of food for the radixes in my area is night crawlers. The radixes are thriving and growing large. I feed 70% night crawlers and I've got some big healthy snakes.
I've heard they are high in protein.
I know that some of the study findings would vary because of soil conditions in the test area, but there must be something special in them there worms.
I did find this from a worm seller.
Nutritional Analysis for Nightcrawlers
Moisture - 83.6%, Protein - 11.7%,
Fat - 1.5%, Ash - 1.2%, Other - 2.0%
Nutritional Analysis for Nightcrawlers
Moisture - 83.6%, Protein - 11.7%,
Fat - 1.5%, Ash - 1.2%, Other - 2.0%

[ssssnakeluvr]

the garters were here before the worms....they have adapted to eating them. the snakes get additional nutrients from the worms food.
ordinoides are primarily worm feeders also. my male ordinoides has eaten only worms since last december...and he's doing fine (was only able to trick him once with a pinkie mixed in a pile of chopped worms)

[Spankenstyne]

I often wonder where the idea that earthworms are nutritionally deficient came from? Everything I've ever heard, read, or found online points to them being a good food source for many animals. For example here's part of an abstract about the Nutritive value of earthworms:

Abstract:
The chemical compositions of the earthworm Eisenia fetida, its casts and body fluids were investigated and compared with those of a variety of common foods and animal feeds. Nutrient analyses showed that Eisenia fetida meal has a high protein content in the range of 54.6 to 71.0% dry matter. The protein content and amino acid composition were close to those of fish meal and eggs, and higher than cow milk powder and soyabean meal. Casts of E. fetida had a protein content of 7.9% dry matter, similar to that of maize meal, and hence earthworm casts could be used not only as an excellent organic fertilizer, but also for partial replacement of maize meal or wheat bran in animal diets. Earthworm body fluids contained 9.4% protein and 78.79 free amino acids per litre and were rich in vitamins and minerals, in particular iron (Fe). Our nutrient analyses suggest that the earthworm (Eisenia fetida) could be an excellent protein supplement for animal feed and human food.

From here: Nutritive value of earthworms. | Sun ZhenJun | Ecological implications of minilivestock: potential of insects, rodents, frogs and snails | Science Publishers, Inc. (http://www.cababstractsplus.org/abstracts/Abstract.aspx?AcNo=20053163790)

I think if anything we underestimate their value. There are tribes of people that eat earthworms for food (look up "Noke" as an example)

[ConcinusMan]

We've been through the worm discussion a million times. There are advantages and disadvantages. If your snake will eat anything else then fish, amphibians and rodents provide very good nutritional density in comparison to worms.

I've also kept ordinoides that refused to eat anything but worms and sometimes slugs and worms. Longest I kept one on that exclusive diet was 7 years. It was big and healthy, grew well, and probably lived longer after it's time with me.

My large concinnus also are given worms fairly often. They love them so I do fill them with worms once or twice a month. It's just that they also eat mice and fish and it sustains them longer while producing less poop, costing less, and reducing the required feeding frequency. I can buy $3 worth of trout and feed them 4 times a month, or I can give them nothing but night crawlers twice a week and spend $8 to get thrice as much poop. Your call.:cool:

[drache]

let's not forget that this European invasion supposedly pushed a native worm species South and West
so why not just assume that the garters just ate said native worm species before?

[Stefan-A]

I often wonder where the idea that earthworms are nutritionally deficient came from? Everything I've ever heard, read, or found online points to them being a good food source for many animals. For example here's part of an abstract about the Nutritive value of earthworms:

Abstract:
The chemical compositions of the earthworm Eisenia fetida, its casts and body fluids were investigated and compared with those of a variety of common foods and animal feeds. Nutrient analyses showed that Eisenia fetida meal has a high protein content in the range of 54.6 to 71.0% dry matter. The protein content and amino acid composition were close to those of fish meal and eggs, and higher than cow milk powder and soyabean meal. Casts of E. fetida had a protein content of 7.9% dry matter, similar to that of maize meal, and hence earthworm casts could be used not only as an excellent organic fertilizer, but also for partial replacement of maize meal or wheat bran in animal diets. Earthworm body fluids contained 9.4% protein and 78.79 free amino acids per litre and were rich in vitamins and minerals, in particular iron (Fe). Our nutrient analyses suggest that the earthworm (Eisenia fetida) could be an excellent protein supplement for animal feed and human food.

From here: Nutritive value of earthworms. | Sun ZhenJun | Ecological implications of minilivestock: potential of insects, rodents, frogs and snails | Science Publishers, Inc. (http://www.cababstractsplus.org/abstracts/Abstract.aspx?AcNo=20053163790)

I think if anything we underestimate their value. There are tribes of people that eat earthworms for food (look up "Noke" as an example)
There's two things in that text that I'd like to highlight:
1. could be an excellent protein supplement
2. could be an excellent protein supplement

I don't think it's necessary to explain the implications.

[ssssnakeluvr]

earthworm Eisenia fetida



these are the toxic red wigglers right? not a good thing to feed to snakes.

[tspuckler]

Europeans have been keeping and breeding American garters for decades. I'm under the impression that they're feeding their snakes European fish and worms.

What the nutritional value of something is isn't really debatable. It can be broken down and analyzed. To imply worms are somehow "junk food" without having a nutritional analysis comparing them to other foods isn't really saying anything valid.

I understand your theory, but the fact is people have been raising and breeding garter snakes on store-bought nightcrawlers and worms that they find in their yards for years - and not only that, for generations of snakes. If these food sources were somehow deficient, then hobbyists wouldn't be successful keeping and breeding their garter snakes.

[Stefan-A]

Europeans have been keeping and breeding American garters for decades. I'm under the impression that they're feeding their snakes European fish and worms.
Primarily fish and mice.


What the nutritional value of something is isn't really debatable. It can be broken down and analyzed. To imply worms are somehow "junk food" without having a nutritional analysis comparing them to other foods isn't really saying anything valid.As with any positive claim, evidence is needed for both positions (safe/unsafe).


I understand your theory, but the fact is people have been raising and breeding garter snakes on store-bought nightcrawlers and worms that they find in their yards for years - and not only that, for generations of snakes. If these food sources were somehow deficient, then hobbyists wouldn't be successful keeping and breeding their garter snakes.How many controlled studies have been made? That's the real question here. It's easy to say "I've been doing this for twenty years" and not realize that the average lifespan has been halved, or that certain illnesses or deformations among offspring are significantly more frequent.

I'm not saying it's the case here, but that's the problem with simple anecdotes from veteran keepers. They are unreliable and biased.

[Selkielass]

As for where I got the Idea worms were junk food- it was from a Veterinarian who treated snakes, reptiles and turtles. They told me that worms were very incomplete nutritionally, and what nutrition they had was highly dependent on what they had been eating recently.

Commercial worm breeders, like people who commercially rase fish, cattle or any other commodity are going to feed their animals as cheaply as they are able to do and still have a product acceptable to the majority of their customers.

We all know feeder goldfish are junk nutritionally. People who feed their reptiles crickets gut load the cricket to ensure proper nutrition. Wild caught worms probably have a pretty decent load of good stuff in their guts (Depending on food source availablity.) Trusting bait worms to be full of nutrition? I don't think so.

I don't argue that Garters wouldn't eat worms where and when they are available- I just think, based on the fact that earth worms *were not available to garters* over large areas of North America for several thousand years, that other food sources probably play a much larger role in their diets than we have led ourselves to believe. (Native worms did remain available in southern areas. no doubt.)

'Junk food' was, I must admit, a poorly chosen phrase, but it was the phrase used by the vet who lectured me *hard* as a youngster about feeding turtles an all worm and goldfish diet. Here is a better analogy- steak. Yummy, high in protien, but not a healthy diet all by itself, even for carnivores.

Dogs, cats and other predators depend on a lot of other nutrients from their prey, more than just bones for calcium. Pet owners who feed their animals 'Biologically appropriate raw foods' swear that the organ meats and stomach contents drastically improve their pets health. (Tho the matter is subject to *tons* of debate and ongoing research.)

Most cats and dogs do well on cheap waste meat products, and have done so for many generations. Most garter snakes can, I believe, do well on pretty simple diets with occasional supplementation. I also believe that better, more appropriate nutrition could improve our pets health, and that the easy availability and eager acceptance of of night crawlers European worms has led us to believe they are a larger portion of our snakes natural diet than they may actually be.

You disagree? Cool! Come up with some research to back up your gut feeling.
I've found this evidence that worms may be, or may have been less important to Northern garters than is widely believed, but I have not found any info on research examining the stomach contents of wild snakes or even numbers showing brumation mortality in wild snakes. I don't have access to these sorts of research materials, but they are probably out there somewhere if someone goes looking.

If they aren't there, perhaps some younger person will be inspired to do the research- I see lots of potential for great research papers or even thesis material in this and related areas.

[tspuckler]

...but that's the problem with simple anecdotes from veteran keepers. They are unreliable and biased.

This whole conversation is "unreliable and biased." There have been no studies of average lifespan of wild snakes vs. captive bred ones. There have been no studies on which for sources are better or if any are nutritionally complete.

Sometimes "simple anecdotes from veteran keepers" is all the information there is to draw conclusions from. If you want to disregard them, that's your prerogative. But I've always thought that was the idea behind forums such as this one - for people to share their experiences.

[Stefan-A]

This whole conversation is "unreliable and biased." There have been no studies of average lifespan of wild snakes vs. captive bred ones. There have been no studies on which for sources are better or if any are nutritionally complete.
And that's no reason to assert that they are nutritionally complete. Or to have faith that they are.


Sometimes "simple anecdotes from veteran keepers" is all the information there is to draw conclusions from.
The problem is that it's not information. It's gut feeling. Speculation. At best, it's misleading. The human brain is not an accurate recording device and personal bias is a well-known problem.

[tspuckler]

And that's no reason to assert that they are nutritionally complete. Or to have faith that they are.

When did I indicate that they were nutritionally complete?
When did I indicate that anyone should have faith in anything?


The problem is that it's not information.

Really? Someone relating their experiences isn't providing information?
You have a very different defination of "information" than I do.


It's gut feeling. Speculation. At best, it's misleading.

So if someone raised garter snakes for several generations on earthworms, you'd call that "gut feeling. Speculation" and (my favorite) "At best, misleading." What's so misleading about it?


The human brain is not an accurate recording device and personal bias is a well-known problem.

Dude, no one claimed that the brian was a recording device.

I offered up my experiences and opinions. What's your problem? People do the same thing on this forum all the time.

I indicated two things in my post:

1) If you do not know the nutritional components of various food items, it's not really valid to consider one of those food items "junk food."

2) People feed their garter snakes food items that aren't necesarily native to the areas where gater snakes live.

Do you want to duscuss that, or do you just want to continue to make up your own definitions to words and misprepresent what I said in my post?

[Selkielass]

When did I indicate that they were nutritionally complete?
<snipped>
1) If you do not know the nutritional components of various food items, it's not really valid to consider one of those food items "junk food."

<snipped>

To clarify- I'm the one who used the term 'junk food' and as I stated before, it was probably a poorly chosen term, but it was the term used by the Vet who was scolding me (A teenager) for feeding too many worms to my turtles.

Please see my previous comment (The excessively long one) for further clarification.
My apologies for using an unintentionally inflammatory term.
I hope we can return to healthy discussion and friendly debate here.

[tspuckler]

To clarify- I'm the one who used the term 'junk food' and as I stated before, it was probably a poorly chosen term, but it was the term used by the Vet who was scolding me (A teenager) for feeding too many worms to my turtles.

I don't really care about "junk food" as a term being used. There are foods that humans eat that are referred to as junk food, and I don't think there's any harm in using it for snakes.

What's important here is:

1) What are the nutritional requirements of snakes.

2) What is the nutritional value of food items being fed to snakes.

Turtles may very well have different dietary requirements than snakes. I have 23 turtles and have been keeping them for a very long time (I've had one for 27 years). I have never heard of feeding a turtle too many earthworms, unless of course it causes the turtle to become overweight.

I have also dealt with a fair number of vets over the years - when it comes to reptiles, some know what they are talking about, while others clearly don't (in my opinion). So I wouldn't swallow everything a vet says hook, line and sinker.

So to get back to the topic at hand, without knowing the nutritional components of worms, how can they be termed an inferior food source? For all we know Euro-worms might be more nutritious than native worms...or they may not.

RodentPro has a chart on their website breaking down the nutritional components of vertebrate prey. If such a thing existed for invertebrate prey, then some comparisons could be made.

Of course in addition to the chart, we'd also need to know the nutritional requirements of garter snakes.

I think the issue here is that we have neither a chart which covers the nutritional components of invertebrate prey, nor a thorough understanding of what the nutritional needs of garter snakes are.

Having a theory that Euro-worms are somehow insubstantial is just that - a theory. Currently it cannot be proven one way or the other.

I will toss out this anecdote: There's a small snake native to the west coast known as a Sharptailed Snake. The Sharptail Snake feeds mainly on slugs. It will readily eat European garden slugs of the genus Arion and, in fact, seems to prefer them over native slugs (Rossi and Rossi, 1995). Shaw and Campbell (1974) state that the snake's range may actually be expanding due to the introduction of these slugs by humans.

And just for kicks, here's a Sharptail Snake that I found a couple years ago:
http://i265.photobucket.com/albums/ii204/tspuckler/sharp1-1.jpg

[Spankenstyne]

Here's a chart with some feeder inverts nutritional components. Something to note is that nightcrawlers are high in calcium with an ideal Ca:P ratio of 1.5:1 to 2:1, and as noted are high in protein. Again as with most inverts it's going to depend on what they've been fed & kept on.

http://www.nagonline.net/Technical%20Papers/NAGFS00397Insects-JONIFEB24,2002MODIFIED.pdf

Not saying they're complete or perfect but imo they are a good food item. My point of contention here being with them being thought of as junk food or lacking nutritional value.

[Stefan-A]

When did I indicate that they were nutritionally complete?
When did I indicate that anyone should have faith in anything?
It was not an accusation, even if it might have sounded like one. It was a warning that it's easy to get suckered into believing that a lack of information is a free pass to make stuff up for yourself. This is also not an accusation.


Really? Someone relating their experiences isn't providing information?
You have a very different defination of "information" than I do. No information regarding the correct keeping of an animal and only limited and unreliable information about that person's history of keeping animals.


So if someone raised garter snakes for several generations on earthworms, you'd call that "gut feeling. Speculation" and (my favorite) "At best, misleading." What's so misleading about it?Let's say we are talking about garters. In captivity, you can have a new generation every 2-3 years, which is a short enough to time, that you could keep breeding them for several generations, while still feeding them "junk food". Hell, even humans manage to do that to themselves. If you eat hamburgers for breakfast, lunch and dinner, that heart attack at age 34 normally still won't kill you before you've managed to reproduce. You can't judge it only by the fact that you get a new generation before the previous one dies off, yet that is the only criteria for "successfully" breeding an animal.


Dude, no one claimed that the brian was a recording device.No and they shouldn't. But the point is that we can't afford to treat it as one, either.


I offered up my experiences and opinions. What's your problem? People do the same thing on this forum all the time.None whatsoever. You are free to offer your experiences and opinions.

This is not about you.


I indicated two things in my post:

1) If you do not know the nutritional components of various food items, it's not really valid to consider one of those food items "junk food."It's also not valid to consider the opposite true on the same grounds, yet this is something many people do. Again, this is not an accusation towards you.


Do you want to duscuss that, or do you just want to continue to make up your own definitions to words and misprepresent what I said in my post?Why not just focus on the issue, instead of taking any and all arguments as personal attacks?


Having a theory that Euro-worms are somehow insubstantial is just that - a theory. Currently it cannot be proven one way or the other.
Except that theories are tested and testable concepts that explain observations. This isn't a theory, it's a hypothesis.

[tspuckler]

It was a warning that it's easy to get suckered into believing that a lack of information is a free pass to make stuff up for yourself.

True. But what kind of "stuff" was made up? I stated some of my observations. Are you saying they were "made up?" A lack of information is precisely why no one can state the dietary requirements of garter snake. Both a lack of information of the nutritional value of foods as well as the lack of information of what garter snakes need nutritionally. This is a point that I've made over and over again in this thread. Do you agree with it or not?


No information regarding the correct keeping of an animal and only limited and unreliable information about that person's history of keeping animals

That sentence makes absolutely no sense.

If you consider a person who gives information on how they keep their animals "unreliable" what's the point of having a forum? As far as I can tell this forum contains quite a bit of information and advice from people explaining how they keep their snakes. Is all that information "unreliable?" Should we simply disregard most of the posts here? As I stated, we do not have scientific evidence to back up many aspects of garter snake keeping. Sometimes all we have to go on is other people's experiences as a guideline. Do you have a problem with that? I never made any indication that how I keep my snakes is "scientifically fact based." I think most people here are hobbyists.


You can't judge it only by the fact that you get a new generation before the previous one dies off, yet that is the only criteria for "successfully" breeding an animal.

I never made any judgment. I simply stated my observations. I never mentioned any "criteria." And I never mentioned "a new generation before the previous one dies off." If you took the time to grasp what I said, it's that we do not know the nutritional requirements of garter snakes (and I've said it repeatedly). Despite that, hobbyists have been successful at keeping and reproducing them. If you want to call hobbyists "unsuccessful" that's your prerogative.

Getting back to the original person who posted: I did some thinking and I reckon some turtles mainly eat vegetarian diets, some eat a ratio of vegetation to meat, and some are mainly carnivorous. If you were feeding your turtle too much meat (worms) and not enough vegetation, then I can see why your vet referred to worms as "junk food" (this of course would depend on what type of turtle you have), as you were giving turtle things that were "bad" for it.

Green Iguanas will eat insects and other meat items, but these could be considered "junk food" to a primarily vegetarian reptile.

I don't think you can extrapolate a turtle's dietary requirements and extend it over to a snake's. You're talking about two different orders of reptiles.

[mb90078]

I think there is room for a healthy debate over whether or not Earthworms are good or sufficient for the majority diet of earthworms.

What I believe is a leap, is to reach that conclusion based on whether or not they are native, rather than the actual nutritional information.

[Stefan-A]

True. But what kind of "stuff" was made up? I stated some of my observations. Are you saying they were "made up?"
Again, this is not about you. It's simply about how the brain works. It's constantly looking for patterns, it fills in gaps based on an individual's expectations and above all, it doesn't remember positive and negative experiences equally well. There's a reason why we conduct blind experiments; Observer and participant bias.


If you consider a person who gives information on how they keep their animals "unreliable" what's the point of having a forum?That is exactly the best reason to have a forum and not just an info page written by some self-appointed authority. I expect everyone here to take everything written here with a grain of salt, regardless of who's written it.


As far as I can tell this forum contains quite a bit of information and advice from people explaining how they keep their snakes. Is all that information "unreliable?" Should we simply disregard most of the posts here?Yes and yes. What you can do to partially counter that problem, is to practice source criticism.


As I stated, we do not have scientific evidence to back up many aspects of garter snake keeping. Sometimes all we have to go on is other people's experiences as a guideline. Do you have a problem with that?How far should we be willing to go using those guidelines? What risks should we be prepared to take on the basis of nothing more than anecdotes?


I never made any indication that how I keep my snakes is "scientifically fact based." I think most people here are hobbyists. That's a total cop out. Being a layman doesn't mean that you can't or shouldn't apply what you have learned about biology.


I never made any judgment. I simply stated my observations. I never mentioned any "criteria." And I never mentioned "a new generation before the previous one dies off." If you took the time to grasp what I said, it's that we do not know the nutritional requirements of garter snakes (and I've said it repeatedly). Despite that, hobbyists have been successful at keeping and reproducing them.If you took the time to grasp what I've said, you'd see how it ties in with what that whole issue.

And for the last time: This is not about you.

[tspuckler]

Again, this is not about you. It's simply about how the brain works. It's constantly looking for patterns, it fills in gaps based on an individual's expectations and above all, it doesn't remember positive and negative experiences equally well. There's a reason why we conduct blind experiments; Observer and participant bias.

You didn't answer my question. And I don't think the topic here is "how the brain works," rather it's can a person relate what they feed their snakes and not be considered "unreliable" or "making things up."



That's a total cop out. Being a layman doesn't mean that you can't or shouldn't apply what you have learned about biology.


When did I ever say that things learned in biology shouldn't be applied?

Your responses to my posts are pretty much "cop outs" where you don't say anything of relevance, keep trying to change the subject and try to turn my simple relating of observations and eperiences into something they're not - which is dishonest. What's your problem?

And I like how you keep saying "this is not about you." Well a heck of alot of other people state their experiences and observations, without all the false insinuations coming from you as a response to their stating those experiences and observations.

If this is not about me, why don't you respond to them with the same nonsense that you've wasted my time with on the thread?

[drache]

never mind

[Stefan-A]

You didn't answer my question. And I don't think the topic here is "how the brain works," rather it's can a person relate what they feed their snakes and not be considered "unreliable" or "making things up."
I DID answer your question and that IS the issue we're discussing here; I provided the justifications for my statement and you better start accepting that. If it went over your head, just skip the rhetoric and say so.


When did I ever say that things learned in biology shouldn't be applied?The second you started separating the relevant sciences from the hobby. More specifically, in the text I quoted in the previous post.


Your responses to my posts are pretty much "cop outs" where you don't say anything of relevance, keep trying to change the subject and try to turn my simple relating of observations and eperiences into something they're not - which is dishonest.Your failure to see the relevance of what I've said, even after I've spelled it out for you, is not my problem. I wash my hands of it. But you are trying my patience and I can't help but wonder if it's intentional.


And I like how you keep saying "this is not about you." Well a heck of alot of other people state their experiences and observations, without all the false insinuations coming from you as a response to their stating those experiences and observations.What false insinuations? I have stated a number of facts that don't have anything to do with you (meaning that they don't apply to you any more or any less than they do to everyone else) and I've repeatedly pointed out to you that they're not accusations. Yet for some reason, you just won't get that. Is there anything you can discuss without bruising your ego?


If this is not about me, why don't you respond to them with the same nonsense that you've wasted my time with on the thread?Because the value of experiences and observations are rarely discussed, but now they were and I thought you might deserve a response. Shame on me.

[mustang]

To clarify- I'm the one who used the term 'junk food' and as I stated before, it was probably a poorly chosen term, but it was the term used by the Vet who was scolding me (A teenager) for feeding too many worms to my turtles.

Please see my previous comment (The excessively long one) for further clarification.
My apologies for using an unintentionally inflammatory term.
I hope we can return to healthy discussion and friendly debate here.
i am gonna be real honest with you some vets go way outa controll over little problems they shouldnt reac like yours did they should be kind a suttle....and offer suggestions like making your turtle work for worms(chase em) to work off some extra fat or somethn. at least thats how i as a vet would react even if it was as fat as a hog...if anything id emphisize exercise and a better diet...but im not a vet...YET....but im well on my way even as a highschool student

[ConcinusMan]

I think that mother nature figured out how to have healthy garter snakes long before we came meddling around. We need to look at a bigger picture here. Bottom line is, no single food is "the best" or "complete". Garter snakes eat a wide variety of foods. (There are exceptions as some garters will only eat worms and slugs) It's up to us as keepers to figure out a wide variety of foods that our snakes will eat. My concinnus love night crawlers and they do get them but it's only a small part of their diet. It would be far too expensive (and just not right) for me to feed them exclusively on night crawlers since they also love mice and fish.

If your snakes take something besides night crawlers or any worm, for cryin' out loud, give it to them. It can save you money and cleanup time, AND make your garter healthier.

[Kevinh583]

In my opinion a food item's merit has more to do with its content and not much to do with where it may be from originally.

I found the folowing data on the usda website. Based on my (admittedly limited) research I am feeding my snake a varied diet trying to cut down on the high fat items since her activity level will be lower than in the wild. But maybe some of the expert forum members can help translate the nutritional information. I'd also be interested in seeing the nutritional information on some of the other feeder fish (the usda study excluded fish for some reason).


http://i1039.photobucket.com/albums/a479/Kevinh583/snap24.jpg

[ConcinusMan]

In my opinion a food item's merit has more to do with its content and not much to do with where it may be from originally.

Exactly what I meant when I said "it doesn't mean a dang thing to me or my snakes" (that worms aren't native)

That chart there illustrates my point. No single food there should be considered better than an other, and that you should offer a variety whenever possible.

[ConcinusMan]

More nutrition analysis info:

http://www.house-of-reptiles.com/feederinvertebrates.pdf

http://www.house-of-reptiles.com/feedervertebrates.pdf

[ConcinusMan]

Aha! Earth worms are native to northern US and Canada after all...


Giant Palouse Earthworm

At lengths of up to one foot, the Giant Palouse is the largest earthworm on earth. It’s quite harmless, but unfortunately it’s endangered all the same. It lives in Eastern Washington State and Idaho and was thought to be extinct until 2005, when a student discovered a living specimen. Previous sightings hadn’t happened since the 1980s. Part of the reason it’s so hard to find the Giant Palouse (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Giant_Palouse_earthworm)? They burrow 15 feet into the ground.

Here it is, pictured next to a night crawler:
http://cdn.webecoist.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/11/giant-palouse-earthworm.jpg

[Stefan-A]

At lengths of up to one foot, the Giant Palouse is the largest earthworm on earth.
Not. Even. Close.

Microchaetus rappi - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microchaetus_rappi)

[ConcinusMan]

Yeah, no kidding. I was tempted to edit that part out but It was quoted from a news source, not a scientific one.

I know it's not necessarily the absolute truth, but wikipedia says two more specimens were found in March of this year.

from wiki:

"Little is known about the giant Palouse earthworm. The worm is believed to grow up to 1 m (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metre) (3.3 ft (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foot_%28length%29)) in length. Modern specimens, however, have been observed up to only about half that length."

I guess my point is, in a different time and climate, these worms could have surfaced as juveniles no bigger than a large night crawler, and of course, been eaten by garter snakes.

[ambertastic]

I've been reading through this thread...
One thing that a lot of people have mentioned (and I agree with) is that whether a food source is native or not is less important than how its nutritional content compares to what the snake's needs are.
It seems worms, for the most part, were not as readily available to garters as slugs back in the day. So it's not a comparison of native v. nonnative food, but original v. new food source/critter.
Nobody compared nutritional components of slugs (European or otherwise - in Washington at least, the native slugs stick to the forest and the European slugs are common - make that invasive - in suburban areas)... to those of earthworms (... European or otherwise).
They are both squishy invertebrates and may be essentially the same so maybe it's a moot point but still. Isn't that what we should be looking at first?
My gut (/newbie) feeling is that, as many garters are opportunistic feeders, the most "natural" diet may simply be a varied one. That certainly sounds like the best way to cover your bases.

And back to one of the OP's early questions -
has anyone bred slugs successfully???
I have collected a bunch of eggs and various adult slugs and am trying my luck in my salamander terrarium.
I've been able to find surprisingly little info on slugs as food sources online, other than that they are food sources.