putting them together

[drache]

I've always kept my garters in small groups of similarly sized snakes of the same gender, or some of them in species groups of two or three
I would like to put together a species tank, involving three large females and an adult male of smallish stature.
I'm hoping that someone can reassure me that the boy isn't going to be in any danger from the ladies - I'm rather attached to him.
he's currently housing with one of them already
the move would put the two of them in a 4'x2' enclosure with the two other females
opinions are welcomed

[drache]

why am I even fretting over this?
I can be such a fuss-bucket sometimes
these are my easterns I'm talking about
and it's done

[mtolypetsupply]

Good for you, Rhea. :)

While he may be small and LOOK like a worm, the girls will say he smells like snake, so shouldn't think of him as prey. Just give him a good bath before you put him in if you take him out and tub feed him, so he doesn't smell appetizing! LOL!

[Stefan-A]

I'm hoping that someone can reassure me that the boy isn't going to be in any danger from the ladies - I'm rather attached to him.
Nope, I can't do that, because there are no guarantees. And don't be surprised if some or all of the females become gravid.

[guidofatherof5]

As long as your females are fed and no longer hungry I don't think there is a great chance he'll get eaten but there is still a chance.
I agree with Stefan, a male with females = gravid female at any time of the year.

[Hollis_Steed]

As long as your females are fed and no longer hungry I don't think there is a great chance he'll get eaten but there is still a chance.
I agree with Stefan, a male with females = gravid female at any time of the year.
This is information I had never considered! i assumed that breeding took place shortly after brumation. Is this not the case? Can they breed any time during the summer months and not just in the few weeks after waking up??? (the things we learn on this forum:)!)

[guidofatherof5]

I have radixes breed all year long, if I let them. I don't let them very often outside the Spring breeding time.

[Stefan-A]

Can they breed any time during the summer months and not just in the few weeks after waking up??? (the things we learn on this forum:)!)
Yes. No brumation is no contraception.

[guidofatherof5]

I have had non-brumated radixes breed in the Spring, Summer, Fall and Winter.

[mtolypetsupply]

Yes. No brumation is no contraception.


I have had non-brumated radixes breed in the Spring, Summer, Fall and Winter.


That is actually good news for some of us. My concinnus don't seem to have taken, and I'd like to see babies from them. They have been separated a while, in case she was gravid, but no babies have resulted. I hope if I feed the heck out of them, and conditions are right, they'll take. They're so pretty, I'd love to see their babies!!!!

Back to the topic at hand, Rhea, they're all eastern, but what morphs (counting my pennies to buy offspring, LOL).

:)

[Spankenstyne]

There's always a risk when group housing. I do it, I know of others that do it, but at the same time I would never recommend it unless the keeper can read his snakes well, and is willing to accept the risks. There aren't any guarantees. The risks are less with these snakes compared to some others (particularly snake eaters) but there's always that potential. Wanderings though being an exception with these guys that I'd likely not keep together, not that it matters in this case...
That said I also know of several longterm pioneer types in the kingsnake world (like Frank Retes for example) that have/had actually kept groups of kingsnakes together for decades. Without really knowing your stuff that's a quick way to downsize your collection to one big fat snake though lol.


Unless you purposely want babies I wouldn't mix sexes. I had a checkered have a litter without ever being brumated.

[adamanteus]

I had a checkered have a litter without ever being brumated.

Me too. I think marcianus are renowned for breeding anytime.

[Spankenstyne]

Yep I was suprised with one at 11 months. Same as Alan Francis has described on his page.

[drache]

I don't mind him mating with any of them, and if there was a way, I would encourage him to mate with at least one of them
none of them have ever shown the slightest cannibalistic tendencies
and I do know that there are never any guarantees
the whole thing just gave me the jitters for a bit because this is my flame male
this morning I was more concerned with whether he managed to escape, because he's never been in this particular enclosure before and he's my most accomplished escape artist. Even if others haven't found a way out, he may. A quick search of the enclosure turned him up looking well, so things are good

[Spankenstyne]

Excellent, good to hear.

[Mommy2many]

I have my 2 large females in with Jesse, my male. They are considerably larger than him. I have had no incidents with feeding. He seems to let them eat first and then he'll go looking. Stewie seems to be the "alpha" snake and has taken his food from him. They actually behave themselves more than my squiggles. It's the squiggles that get in the food fights and I have had to separate!

[drache]

here are the females:

http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4074/4777845893_55dd31ae9f_b.jpg

[guidofatherof5]

Those are some big beautiful girls.

[Mommy2many]

They look like the size of my girls!

[mtolypetsupply]

Awww, so sweet!!!!

Have to share, though. Today, while feeding some cohabbing babies, the smaller one was in the dish, the larger of the two was looking for food. I guess the smaller one's tail was closest in a dish full of worm and pinky parts. The big girl grabbed it, and started swallowing. She was past the cloaca by a good measure by the time I got to them. I was able to extricate them, but poor Little Girl has some good teeth marks on her lower parts and tail. :(

My advice and preference, if time allows, cohab from now until doomsday, but tub feed unless it's prohibitive to do so!

:)

[ConcinusMan]

Some garters if deprived of reproduction and/or brumation for a period of time, will find a way to make it happen anyway. It's survival. I mean, what if the climate suddenly warmed in concinnus territory, and the snakes no longer needed to brumate? many would die off, but the remainder would eventually reproduce, brumated or not. The point is, garters are obviously adaptable or they wouldn't be so diverse and plentiful. The concinnus pair i had for about 20 years would sometimes attempt(unsuccessfully) to breed even if not brumated. All they needed was an awareness of seasonal change.

Heck, that 6 year old female pueblan milk snake I had has never been bred. They are known to produce fertile eggs anyway, at around 8-10 years old. They'll do it.

If you want babies from you concinnus, it's best to get both male and female through a long hot summer, fed very well, then brumate them. They are originally from NW Oregon/SW Washington. If they are great shape, don't go easy on them for brumation. Go 45-50 degrees for 4 months minimum. They'll make babies after that. Even when successful breeding took place, litters were small when I went easy on them. When I stuck them with very long and cold winter rest, and they came out without losing much weight, my litters were huge. 35-45 babies. I found that you cannot skimp on the female's brumation. She must stay cold for several months. The male doesn't seem to make much difference. He can skip it, or only have a very mild winter season. The female seems more fertile if she doesn't get treated like a pet. She must get somewhat harsh and long brumation if she's healthy and strong. Big litters follow.

[Spankenstyne]

There's a lot of debate on the subject but I'll just add that there are also some who believe that snakes don't need to brumate, that it's merely a behaviour to survive existing adverse conditions but is not necessary at all for reproduction.

Like many things in the reptile hobby sadly there aren't a lot of studies or concrete data besides some personal experiences and what's understood as "common knowledge" to back things up. While ConcinnusMan's experience might point towards brumating and the female making more of a difference, I have several friends who swear that it's the male that makes the difference and they only brumate their males, and then I know some who never brumate anything and also have great success.. Who knows...

Personally I do tend to brumate my snakes from temperate climates, but there are also risks involved.

Here's a link to some discussion with some old timers involved:
Kingsnake.com - Herpforum - RE: Brumating snakes (http://forums.kingsnake.com/view.php?id=1828629,1828652)
(if it's allowed here? Mods feel free to edit if it's against the rules)

[ConcinusMan]

There are certainly risks involved. I hated to put my snakes through that brumation period. I missed them and worried about them. Just sharing what I experienced. I never once got a successful brood of babies without a substantial cool time with short days, followed by warming and longer days. I'm sure it can be done without full-out brumation, I just never had any luck personally, unless the female was brumated. I saw plenty of sexual attraction and attempted matings without brumating. Just never got any babies.

I admit it was only one time that I brumated the female (45-55 degrees) but skipped it for the male, he only got shorter days and cooler temperatures. (65-70 daytime degrees) I felt he wasn't strong or heavy enough to be brumated and I didn't want to lose him.

I warmed them both up gradually and that first shed after her 4 month harsh brumate, the male was all over her and they locked. Got about 50 babies from that mating.

Even if you don't go "all out" and refrigerate your snakes, it does help to have seasons for garter snakes. Especially if your garters are from, or descended from wild stock found north of say, 40 degrees North in North America, or from snakes found at high altitudes. Afterall, they evolved with seasons and evolved stratagies including reproduction, around the seasonal changes. While it may not be necessary, the seasonal changes do provide them with a cue as to what they should be doing next. ie, eating, seeking dens, mating, etc.

But, to stay on topic, go ahead and put your males and females together, even if you don't provide seasonal changes. Also, don't be surprised if a girl ends up gravid. Just don't count on it.

If I were to keep the snakes I have now, at their current day length and temperatures, I would not expect any litters in the next few years. Doesn't mean it can't happen though.

[drache]

My advice and preference, if time allows, cohab from now until doomsday, but tub feed unless it's prohibitive to do so!:)
most of my snakes get tweezer fed (12" or 15" tweezers) in their enclosure
if there is a skittish snake who will upset everyone and make them drop their food, I take out one or two snakes to feed in another enclosure. Depending on the specifics, that can be either the skittish snake or one that'll eat under any circumstances and won't regurgitate if handled after eating
I never ever walk away when feeding more than one snake in their enclosure, not unless they all are working on something that's going to take them long enough to swallow that I can go get something in the other room, or pop a rodent into an SRO enclosure
even at that I don't think I can do more than three in an enclosure without feeling stressed
the kind of stuff Steve does - just sticking a plate of food in an enclosure with so many snakes I can't count them - would stress the heck out of me
there's this physical symptom I get only when I'm stressed around snake feeding. It's a kind of popping in the ears - very weird, a little painful, quite unpleasant - and I've never gotten in in any other situation

[Spankenstyne]

I do the plate/dish feeding as well. The groups of babies tend to have minor squabbles and the adults normally eat right in one another's face with just a bit of chasing if it's a bigger piece but for the most part they're sort of guarding the food like it's feeding time at Alcatraz.


http://i274.photobucket.com/albums/jj267/spankenstyne/Thamnophis/tmfeeding1ajuly112010.jpg

[prattypus]

Without the worms, it looks like a nice little dish of ceviche.