"Goldfish are better than mice".

[Anthony Laing]

Hi,
I havnt been on for a while, but whilst trolling around on Youtube, I found a video of a guy feeding a goldfish to his garter. With no disrespect, I messaged him, explaining about Thiamine. He is 14, and explained how his mother won't let him have mice in the house. I am 15, and I have over 100 mice and rats in my freezer. :D

After a long discussion, he came up with this:

"okay.. but u actually were wrong.. i dont mean to sound rude or anything just telling u.. mice have to much fat in them not good 4 a garter and goldfish r best cuz it contains averything it needs "

Sorry, but am I wrong, or is he?

[guidofatherof5]

Make sure this other young man knows about thiaminase. Goldfish have everything they need and stuff they don't.
You might cut and paste from the forum care sheet. Wait, send him the whole care sheet. Just a suggestion.

[Stefan-A]

He is wrong, but don't import any drama.

[Anthony Laing]

Make sure this other young man knows about thiaminase. Goldfish have everything they need and stuff they don't.
You might cut and paste from the forum care sheet. Wait, send him the whole care sheet. Just a suggestion.


He is wrong, but don't import any drama.


Okay, thanks. Will do. :D

[mustang]

hes wrong (rub i in i know i would when someone else challenges me to snake info!):psarcastic:p

[ssssnakeluvr]

he's wrong.... wandering garters routinely eat rodents in the wild too

[infernalis]

A lot of us feed rodent based diets to our entire Thamnophis collections, and our snakes are just fine.

[ConcinusMan]

And some of us have used goldfish as part of their diets for years, and the snakes did fine too.;)

It certainly can't be good if that's all he gives his garters. He'll probably be on this site after a while, crying about his snakes having health problems.:rolleyes:

[Anthony Laing]

A lot of us feed rodent based diets to our entire Thamnophis collections, and our snakes are just fine.

My garters are fed pinkies every week, and maybe 1 every 2 months, I throw in a guppy. (If they've behaved):p


And some of us have used goldfish as part of their diets for years, and the snakes did fine too.;)

It certainly can't be good if that's all he gives his garters. He'll probably be on this site after a while, crying about his snakes having health problems.:rolleyes:

Yes, I have told him about the possible problems, but now he's ignoring me, but I have sent him links to this forum, and the RFUK. :)

[Anthony Laing]

Sorry, duplicate post. :o

[Spankenstyne]

First off kudos for trying to help educate him & steer him in the right direction when it comes to caring for his snakes.
The thing is, he's not entirely wrong either. Yep some garter species will sometimes opportunistically take mice in the wild, but I don't know of any that take them as the bulk of their diet. I also am of the belief that a strictly rodent diet isn't necessarily the best for them either. People have shown it can work and it's more convenient for us as keepers, but these guys are a little different from other species that mainly feed on mammals & birds. Variety is the key & will help keep your garters from becoming deficient, and keep 'em healthy.

The longer you're in the hobby the more you realize there aren't really any absolutes. It's less about being right and more about doing right by your animals.

[ssssnakeluvr]

I don't totally agree with you....I do give a variety but they do just fine on a diet of rodents. Wandering garters do take a lot of rodents in the wild. A lot of the areas I find them in have lots of field mice and not much else.

[infernalis]

I don't totally agree with you....I do give a variety but they do just fine on a diet of rodents. Wandering garters do take a lot of rodents in the wild. A lot of the areas I find them in have lots of field mice and not much else.

I'm with Don on that issue. My biggest monster eastern (W/C) that I just got certainly did not reach the size she is by eating night crawlers.

She refuses anything BUT mice.

I found her in a big open meadow far from any fish.

I'm sure toads were also part of her diet, but I won't be feeding her any toads.

[Spankenstyne]

Don, fair enough. I undertand them to be probably the most opportunistic of the garter species that will eat a wide variety of anything they can overpower & more rodent than other species. I wouldn't doubt there are populations that eat more rodents where they're more abundant.

I'm not disagreeing at all that it can be done, I know it can be. I just doubt that it's the best thing for garter snakes longterm to only be fed mice. I think you likely agree with that or you wouldn't be bothering to feed a variety. I know that someone like yourself who cares greatly about these snakes feeds what he feels is best for them longterm.

Essentially I'm getting at that while we know goldfish aren't a good food item that mice while doable might not be the perfect solution on their own either.

[Spankenstyne]

I'm with Don on that issue. My biggest monster eastern (W/C) that I just got certainly did not reach the size she is by eating night crawlers.

She refuses anything BUT mice.

I found her in a big open meadow far from any fish.

I'm sure toads were also part of her diet, but I won't be feeding her any toads.

Again, fair enough but you also don't believe she has only eaten mice her whole life. It's possible there have been baby birds, slugs, worms, amphibians, or who knows where she's travelled since birth etc.
I think we're mostly on the same page here. I probably mis-stated the case with the "bulk of the diet" comment which kinda lost my intent. Basically what I mean is that there doesn't seem to be only one thing that is the perfect solution.

Let me ask this, if we believe that mice are the perfect food item for garters then why aren't we all feeding only mice from birth?

[ConcinusMan]

Same reason that I give my dog treats that aren't necessarily "perfect food"?

[infernalis]

Again, fair enough but you also don't believe she has only eaten mice her whole life. It's possible there have been baby birds, slugs, worms, amphibians, or who knows where she's travelled since birth etc.
I think we're mostly on the same page here. I probably mis-stated the case with the "bulk of the diet" comment which kinda lost my intent. Basically what I mean is that there doesn't seem to be only one thing that is the perfect solution.

Let me ask this, if we believe that mice are the perfect food item for garters then why aren't we all feeding only mice from birth?

One thing I do believe is that we all have different beliefs.

I start giving my snakes chopped up bits of pinkie mouse as soon as I can.

at first I mix it with chopped up fish, then wean them off the fish as soon as I can.

Personally I notice far more rapid growth once they start eating the pinks.

However, due to the sheer number of snakes I own, it is more convenient and economical to feed them the mice.

However, I do not wish to argue with anyone, some folks like to offer variety, some folks stick with fish, some people feed lots of worms.

My own personal preference is the mice.

As for my w/c I'm sure she started out on much smaller items, and worked her way up.

http://www.reptard.info/garters/gartergrub.jpg

[ConcinusMan]

I know that when I was feeding amy fish, her growth was steady but slow. After a couple of months on straight pinkies, she's growing extremely fast. 1.5 inches in 4 weeks last time I checked. Now, instead of shedding every 5-6 weeks, she's shedding every 4 weeks. That's proof enough for me.

In the interest of variety, I still give her bits of silversides (pond smelt) meat, and pieces of night crawlers now and then.

Some of my adult concinnus seem to prefer whole silversides and night crawlers but I still scent a fuzzy and give them 3 or 4 per month. Others will take unscented pinks readily so I feed them pinks and silversides. My anery's seem to prefer fuzzies and pinks, and only occasionally accept fish or night crawlers. Those on mostly rodents get fed once or twice a week, and they poop a lot less. Also, you can put reptile calcium supplements in with your worms' food and they will eat it up.

And then there's the stubborn ordinoides that will only take worms and slugs. They get fed often. On a side note, I think people underestimate the amount of calcium that can be found in a slug when they are gut-loaded with lots of greens.

[Spankenstyne]

It's all good, no interest in arguing here either just friendly debate. The world would be a terribly boring place if we all had the same opinions ;)

The main thing being that we're all garter enthusiasts and want the best for our snakes

[infernalis]

It's all good, no interest in arguing here either just friendly debate. The world would be a terribly boring place if we all had the same opinions ;)

The main thing being that we're all garter enthusiasts and want the best for our snakes


Cheers to that!!

[MasSalvaje]

I am not trying to get too far off topic, but I think over feeding is as much of an issue as what we are feeding. I have not seen it as much with garters because of their high metabolisms, but I think in general captive herps are over fed. Feeding any snake high volumes of rodents on a regular basis can cause problems, anyone that has been to the reptile house at the zoo here in Utah can tell you that. I never would have thought that a 18' Retic would have a problem with eating too much so you can imagine my shock when I saw the one at the zoo with fat rolls.

My point is that we are often so worried about getting our snakes to eat and eating enough "healthy" items that we overlook the fact we may be gorging them out of their scales.

Whole wheat bread may be healthy but if that is all I fed my sons all day everyday and kept them couped up inside, they would be as fat as the kid down the street that is on the drivethru diet.

-Thomas

[Spankenstyne]

Very true.

[drache]

my babies are always offered pinkie strips as part of their first meal, an usually more than half of them will go for rodent over the other choices (fish & night crawler)
I usually offer both pinkie strips and f/t fish first, and then offer worms to the one or two that wouldn't go for the dead food.