Chinese water snake? Garter relative?

[Selkielass]

I was checking out local reptile stores today and I came across something that puzzles me. It was a small snake labeled as a 'Chinese Water Snake'. It was housed in the type of enclosure I usually see turtles in- large aquarium with an island in the middle taking up around 1/3 to 1/2 the surface area. The snake was basking on its island, and it sure looked like a garter to me- like some of the pretty red sided garters I've seen pictured around here (Checkering w red, not solid red stripes.) Googling Chinese Garter snake turned up no matches, just a venemous critter with little resemblance to the pretty little thing I saw. The fellow at the store didn't know very much about it, other than it was strictly a fish eater. (It had plenty of feeders in its tank.) Could they have a mis-identified fish loving garter of some variety?

[guidofatherof5]

Mislabel something? Not know what they have? Never happens:D
It happens all too often.
Not sure about this case. Any chance you can get a picture of this snake?

[Selkielass]

Might be able to ask if I get back to that side of town. I was scouting out SE Mich reptile stores to price out supplies and to help 'HazAnga' with some possible stops for his trip. (Maybe he could offer an opinion or snap a pic if he sees this post) The shop is a pretty cool place- sort of an upscale Hippy head shop with a beautiful, very well kept reptile section. They might not mind a quick cell-phone shot. For only $15 I can't imagine its something terribly exotic or rare!

[Selkielass]

Hah! Deeper googling revealed this- The snakes of Beijing - a short field guide (http://www.danwei.org/wildlife/a_field_guide_to_the_snakes_of_1.php) Third snake down looks a little like the fellow I saw! (Chinese Garter snake! Yes!) Anyone with any experience with these fellows?

[guidofatherof5]

Very beautiful snake.

[aSnakeLovinBabe]

That's a "Red Backed Ratsnake" Oocatochus rufodorsata for sure... they do always call them chinese garter snakes. Anything that has a name like that, such as chinese garter, indonesian garter, etc... is in no way related to our garters. Our garters (thamnophis) are only found in north and central america. I have a pair of Oocatochus rufodorsata. They both tried my patience to the maximum. But they are nice snakes. They are sometimes also called Red-backed ratsnakes and used to be in the same genus as other ratsnakes... Elaphe rufodorsata. But, they're not really much of a rat snake at all.. I suppose that's why they've changed their taxonomy. They give live birth and are mostly frog eaters in the wild.... they need a setup just like our garters though... dry land with a bowl of water. the setup that guy has it in is ALL wrong. People are incredibly ignorant sometimes... sticking a water or garter snake in a tank full of water! I just went through this with a shop locally... they had two midland water snakes in a tank of water with a rock in the center. They need to be able to stay dry. The don't live in water at all, just near it because their food lives in it. I was only able to start mine eating with live tadpoles. My "chinese garters" had two meals of tadpoles and then they started eating live fish off my tongs. They have now eaten scented pinkies, but they are not fond of the texture and must be convinced that they are food. I can guarantee you one thing... it is wild caught, and it sounds like it's probably not a very happy snake in it's current setup...

[Selkielass]

Would a small/ young (12 inch or so) one have a build that resembles a garter snake? I think of rat snakes as having a 'stockier' build, but his fellows build really looked like a garter to my inexpert eyes. Poor thing. If Aberforth continues to refuse to eat, and has to be returned to the wild, I might consider this fellow as a replacement if he's eating well and has a decent temperament. A fish eater I could handle. An 'aquatic' snake not so much. Better yet if its just a mislabeled red sided garter.

[mustang]

could it be this (i looked it up and the common name is a chinees water snake not a cfa Chinese green false anaconda - Adults - $22.99 (http://www.reptilesncritters.com/chinese-green-false-anaconda.html)

[Selkielass]

Nope. Very stripey, slim and red checkery along the sides. Sort of like these, but I don't think the yellow was so intense. California Red-Sided Garter Snake | Thamnophis sirtalis infernalis | Reptile (http://www.wildlifenorthamerica.com/Reptile/California-Red-Sided-Garter-Snake/Thamnophis/sirtalis-infernalis.html) I *thought* it was a red sided garter when I first spotted it, then I saw the water and the tag and became confused. I'm going to see If I can talk the store into letting me take a picture of it.

[Selkielass]

Got a picture! He's less striped than my faulty memory recalled, but just as pretty. http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v660/selkielass/TheRoadshow.jpg (http://smg.photobucket.com/albums/v660/selkielass/?action=view&current=TheRoadshow.jpg) Owned by 'The Roadshow' 28500 Gratiot Ave, Roseville, MI 48066 » Map (586) 779-7623 Feisty little guy- gave me an open mouthed hiss when we lifted the lid to take his picture, but he was calm- didn't move a bit despite my flash accidentally going off.

[guidofatherof5]

Beautiful snake.
Would be welcomed on the Ranch any day.:)

[guidofatherof5]

Beautiful Snake.
Would be welcome on the Ranch any day.

Wow, a double post. Please remove this one. Thanks.:)

[mustang]

Buy it buy it buy it

[Selkielass]

It's a little to hot for me, especially since this snake thing is a cooperative project with my 5 yr old son. The fellow at the store said it is a rear fanged snake with anticoagulant venom, so if it did snap and chew on a finger we might be facing some messy bleeding. No thanks. I'd still love to hear anything anyone knows about this type of snake- there doesn't seem to be much about them on the web.

[mustang]

It's a little to hot for me, especially since this snake thing is a cooperative project with my 5 yr old son. The fellow at the store said it is a rear fanged snake with anticoagulant venom, so if it did snap and chew on a finger we might be facing some messy bleeding. No thanks. I'd still love to hear anything anyone knows about this type of snake- there doesn't seem to be much about them on the web.
FWCs (false water cobra) are rear fanged and only one person got envenomated! fangs really far back and ver difficul o bie wih usually it helps immobilize prey during swallowing...thats what iv learned so far

[Selkielass]

I've read that many of the rear fanged snakes are sweet tempered and unlikely to do any real damage when they bite (Hognosde, yes?) But many are reputed to be a lot more hot tempered and potentially illness inducing . I can't find *anything* about this varieties temper or precisely how strong their venom might be. I'm a relative beginner- I don't want to harm myself, my family or the poor snake. I just know too little about this fellow to be a good owner. Besides, with a child around, I want to stick with well known 'kid-safe' species and the calmest individual animals I can find.

[aSnakeLovinBabe]

Thats a Chinese banded water snake... Sinonatrix annularis. I have been looking all over for those!!! Can he get more than one? Do you have a phone # for this place!? And yes... These are rear fanged... You must mind those fingers!

[Selkielass]

He is at The Roadshow' 28500 Gratiot Ave, Roseville, MI 48066 (586) 779-7623 Call and talk to them- they are really great people. If he can't pack and ship I'm willing to help if you can talk me through the entire process. (And possibly send me proper shipping materials.) I *really* would love to see this fellow go to someone who can take proper care of him- he really is gorgeous. I'm not too worried about handling him myself, I just don't want tho risk him around an impulsive 5 year old. He told me yesterday they purchased him at a Herp Expo. He would probably be willing to tell you which expo, and you might be able to track down a vendor list.

[guidofatherof5]

I'm not too worried about handling him myself, I just don't want tho risk him around an impulsive 5 year old. .

Good thinking.:)

[houchen]

hey,that is a really common pet snake in China,abundant in wild

[houchen]

only cost 10yuan that is about 1.5 dollar each .you can commonly see piles of them mixed with red blacked ratsnake in big container .i can assure you that they are as harmless as a corn snake,and even easier to keep than corn snake,doing very well on fishes and tadpoles.they are dominant snakes in central and south China.

[ConcinusMan]

Did anyone buy that snake? He looked like he could use some TLC since he doesn't appear to be in the best shape.

[HazAnga]

Might be able to ask if I get back to that side of town. I was scouting out SE Mich reptile stores to price out supplies and to help 'HazAnga' with some possible stops for his trip. (Maybe he could offer an opinion or snap a pic if he sees this post) The shop is a pretty cool place- sort of an upscale Hippy head shop with a beautiful, very well kept reptile section. They might not mind a quick cell-phone shot. For only $15 I can't imagine its something terribly exotic or rare!


I don't think I ended up able to git there unfortunatly. By the time the girlfriend was done her shopping and I was able to check out some stores myself I was able to git to one... like 5 min's before closing. But hopefully going over the border again next year.

[houchen]

http://www.wwfchina.org/bbs/viewthread....3D570005

[houchen]

http://bbs.pxtx.com/Attachment/2010/02/24/1711826256698.JPG

[houchen]

http://www.wwfchina.org/bbs/attachments/month_0910/09101022122a9fa5b30fbdf191.jpg

[guidofatherof5]

Houchen,

I must ask a question since you are the first member of this forum from China(someone correct me if I'm wrong)
How does the average person in China feel about snakes? It seems that most people from the countries represented on the forum have a negative feeling towards them. It seems in the U.S. it's a kill them all attitude from many people.
Would you also tell us where those photos were taken. Was it an open market or a special event, pet shop?
Thank you for your time.

[houchen]

In China ,just the same with US .some people fear snakes to the bone and some don't afraid them but also don't like them ,only a minority love this creature.according to the traditional Chinese saying especially north China that snakes are little dragon if you hurt or kill a snake, the snake's spirit won't let you go and you get a bad luck.so in some places of China like my hometown it is a forbidden to kill snake.
Those photos were taken at pet shop. those snakes were sold to child and middle school students for fun.

[houchen]

In China ,just the same with US .some people fear snakes to the bone and some don't afraid them but also don't like them ,only a minority love this creature.according to the traditional Chinese saying especially north China that snakes are little dragon if you hurt or kill a snake, the snake's spirit won't let you go and you get a bad luck.so in some places of China like my hometown it is a forbidden to kill snake.
Those photos were taken at pet shop.

[justme]

Wow, what an interesting thread. Welcome Houchen. And by the way, did Shannon buy the snake? What's the outcome? ;-)

[Mommy2many]

In China ,just the same with US .some people fear snakes to the bone and some don't afraid them but also don't like them ,only a minority love this creature.according to the traditional Chinese saying especially north China that snakes are little dragon if you hurt or kill a snake, the snake's spirit won't let you go and you get a bad luck.so in some places of China like my hometown it is a forbidden to kill snake.
Those photos were taken at pet shop.


That explains it! I was born in the year of the Dragon and share a kindrid spirit with the snake!

[ConcinusMan]

http://www.wwfchina.org/bbs/attachments/month_0910/09101022122a9fa5b30fbdf191.jpg

Looks terribly crowded. Snakes are probably WC too. Great way for disease to fester.

[houchen]

yeah that is realy a pity,almost every Chinese indigenous snakes are all WC,it is not illegal to collect wild snakes.many people here just don't care about the nature and environment,and the law is not so complete.besides, we don't have any reptile breeders like you do in US,many things are different here.

[guidofatherof5]

many people here just don't care about the nature and environment.

We've got our share of those people in the U.S. and many are in charge.:mad:

[ConcinusMan]

America had her economic and industrial boom, and of course, plenty of environmental damage was done. I'm sure it continues, although some laws have been passed to lessen the impact these days. We must also keep in mind, that we have only shifted the pollution and damage over to them. A significant portion of China's garbage and pollution really belongs to America and other rich nations because we are buying the goods that China produces, further driving them to create more garbage and pollution.

If China doesn't wake up and stop devastating the environment, the results won't be pretty. There are species there that are going extinct faster than they are being discovered!

[houchen]

yeah I totally agree, The environment has reached its limit,it is time to change something.but so far saw no good trend.I worry about the future of this country,but according to the report no snake species kown to be extinct until now ,only the number decreased a lot.

[houchen]

admire you have nice and clean environment, the air in beijing is really terrible......

[ConcinusMan]

Like I was saying before, it's not entirely China's fault. We share the responsibility. As far as the snakes are concerned, they really need to do something to stop the exploitation and overcollecting before it's too late.

[aodaisho]

Hello,

As a new comer here I am answering a bit late to this post...
Yes the two first pictures are S. annularis and the last pic from Houchen are a bunch of S. annularis and O. rufodorsata.
The first species can be difficult to adapt to captivity and even if the set up seems perfect they can refuse to eat.On the other hand rufodorsata is a very interesting fellow and will accept invertebrates, fish, etc...
Sinonatrix is a genus which is very similar in lifestyle as the nerodia group...Always in the vicinity of water. Rufodorsata would be more like a thamnophis by nature.
Regarding their status and for answering to Houchen it is now forbidden to catch wild snakes in China...You can still find some people selling them on the market... but in big cities you need to know who sell them.