How the heck do you sex babies?

[Atlas511]

these things are TINY! I would crack these guys in half trying to pop them... no way to probe... is it all visual>?

[guidofatherof5]

I'm not a popper. Don't know how. Don't want to.
Check out this link to help with visual indentification:
http://www.thamnophis.com/forum/breeding/5069-sexing-pics.html

[aSnakeLovinBabe]

Believe it or not, you can pop them. But seriously, don't try it unless you are very confident and sure of yourself. I accurately sex my babies by popping on a regular basis. I would never probe such a small snake...

SOMETIMES you can actually visually sex them by looking at their tails. Unfortunately, I have never found this to work with garters well at all. BUT, upon being born there was such a difference in my banded water snake babies that I accurately sexed each one by sight, then mixed them back up and popped them and got the same ratio!

[ssssnakeluvr]

I popped them several times before shipping. I have been popping babies for some time too. and yes, they are small....wait till my ordinoides pops......they will be even smaller!

[Atlas511]

Don, these guys are soooo small! I would crush them! lol... I trust you on the sex but I just want to learn new things. I pop my baby retics without a thought! I guess that what happens when you hatch at 200 grams lol.

[ssssnakeluvr]

yea, they're just a bit smaller..... :cool:

[ConcinusMan]

Hey, Shannon, I've never had to pop or probe a garter, at least not sirtalis or ordinoides. The difference is pretty obvious, even when they are babies. Hard for me to understand why, for garters, morphological differences between the sexes doesn't work for you. It has ALWAYS worked for me. Anyway my real point is...

Redspot showed me something yesterday that blew my mind. We gathered several garter snakes up while we were herping and I guessed their sexes visually. He informed me that he discovered that the scale count on the tails of these snakes can be reliably used to sex them, provided their tails are intact. All snakes that were sexed visually and by scale counting, were confirmed accurate by probing. Not a single mistaken sexual ID. Probing was only done to confirm our "guesses".

I have never gotten even one confirmed male to "pop". Redspot decided to show me how easy it is, and failed to pop a male. Instead he got a shot of musk. We both got a laugh out of that.

@Atlas: Seems counter intuitive, but I would think that baby garters would be easier to pop without hurting them, than adults would. Adults have much stronger muscles for holding in the hemipenes than babies do. You just have to be careful with their little spines.

[GartersRock]

If you can't get a confirmed baby male to pop then you either aren't doing it right or it's a female. ;) I can sex visually, popping, scale counting or probing. And popping (for babies) still seems to be the most accurate for me. I am CONSTANTLY receiving snakes from well respected individuals who probe and visually sex wrong. How do I know for sure? Because it's usually females who look like females, probe like females and then pop two LONG obvious hemipenes (no I am not mistaking for female organs) easily.
So I don't think there is any WRONG way to do it. But seriously you gotta stop saying that visual is 100% accurate and there is no need to pop ever. ;) Because I am constantly seeing people make more mistakes when they don't do it.

With adults unless I can VERY easily pop hemipenes on a male if they are super relaxed I would never confirm female due to their ability to restrain. So probing, scale counting and visual will have to do. :D

[aSnakeLovinBabe]

Hey, Shannon, I've never had to pop or probe a garter, at least not sirtalis or ordinoides. The difference is pretty obvious, even when they are babies. Hard for me to understand why, for garters, morphological differences between the sexes doesn't work for you. It has ALWAYS worked for me. Anyway my real point is...

Redspot showed me something yesterday that blew my mind. We gathered several garter snakes up while we were herping and I guessed their sexes visually. He informed me that he discovered that the scale count on the tails of these snakes can be reliably used to sex them, provided their tails are intact. All snakes that were sexed visually and by scale counting, were confirmed accurate by probing. Not a single mistaken sexual ID. Probing was only done to confirm our "guesses".

I have never gotten even one confirmed male to "pop". Redspot decided to show me how easy it is, and failed to pop a male. Instead he got a shot of musk. We both got a laugh out of that.

@Atlas: Seems counter intuitive, but I would think that baby garters would be easier to pop without hurting them, than adults would. Adults have much stronger muscles for holding in the hemipenes than babies do. You just have to be careful with their little spines.


Richard, i think you misunderstood me... I only have to pop babies. I have never had to probe a garter... that's HIGHLY unnecessary... and after a few months of age even popping is unnecessary. I don't see scale counting as necessary for me at least... because I can sex adults on sight, and babies by popping. I suppose it could be useful but I will not be sitting down with a magnifying glass counting scales on my babies when I can pop 20 of them in 2 minutes. Anything older than a few months is often accurately sexed by eye.... and even if you can't see the tail of an adult garter snake you can often tell what it is. As for neonates, I DO pop them... and always will...and here is why: Even though you can often sex them visually, it's NOT always accurate at all, and how much you can tell varies by species and individual clutch. My clutch of pugets last year was obvious. My clutch of florida blue babies... was impossible. I had a male concinnus baby that defied all odds. The FL blue baby tails were all identical. And I have one heck of a trained eye for detail... I have customers that want accurately sexed pairs, and I am not going to risk my customer's dissatisfaction by making a visual mistake when I have a definitive alternative for baby snakes. When you are attempting to build and keep a good reputation at a high profile level... you just don't attempt to sex your babies by eye. You WILL make mistakes. I have seen baby garters and thought, that one has got to be a female, there's nothing in that tail! only to have a set of hemipenes pop out. That's why I pop clutches 3 times over the course of a few weeks to iron out any errors I have made. Usually I end up finding I have one more male than I thought or something like that. For the first popping, I always do it twice, I pop them, get a ratio count, mix them up and do it again. If I get the same ratio, then I know that's as good as it could possibly get! And then I know I am good to go.... and I have not once had to apologize, or send an extra snake out at my cost, to anyone for sending them the wrong sex :D

(thank god, because shipping is expensive:eek:)

[GartersRock]

Oh and when I speak of scale counting and probing I am mostly talking other species. Adult garters I find visual to be completely accurate.

[GartersRock]

Richard, i think you misunderstood me... I only have to pop babies. I have never had to probe a garter... that's HIGHLY unnecessary... and after a few months of age even popping is unnecessary. I don't see scale counting as necessary for me at least... because I can sex adults on sight, and babies by popping. I suppose it could be useful but I will not be sitting down with a magnifying glass counting scales on my babies when I can pop 20 of them in 2 minutes. Anything older than a few months is often accurately sexed by eye.... and even if you can't see the tail of an adult garter snake you can often tell what it is. As for neonates, I DO pop them... and always will...and here is why: Even though you can often sex them visually, it's NOT always accurate at all, and how much you can tell varies by species and individual clutch. My clutch of pugets last year was obvious. My clutch of florida blue babies... was impossible. I had a male concinnus baby that defied all odds. The FL blue baby tails were all identical. And I have one heck of a trained eye for detail... I have customers that want accurately sexed pairs, and I am not going to risk my customer's dissatisfaction by making a visual mistake when I have a definitive alternative for baby snakes. When you are attempting to build and keep a good reputation at a high profile level... you just don't attempt to sex your babies by eye. You WILL make mistakes. I have seen baby garters and thought, that one has got to be a female, there's nothing in that tail! only to have a set of hemipenes pop out. That's why I pop clutches 3 times over the course of a few weeks to iron out any errors I have made. Usually I end up finding I have one more male than I thought or something like that. For the first popping, I always do it twice, I pop them, get a ratio count, mix them up and do it again. If I get the same ratio, then I know that's as good as it could possibly get! And then I know I am good to go.... and I have not once had to apologize, or send an extra snake out at my cost, to anyone for sending them the wrong sex :D

(thank god, because shipping is expensive:eek:)

+1!

[Snakeknot]

Now I know absolutely NOTHING on accurately sexing snakes. But from my experience, it seems to be its own science. I trust people more experienced than me to do the sexing. I know I bought a sand boa as a 2 yr old from a lovely older couple who have been working with snakes for years. They assured me it was female. I believed them, especially as the snake in question kept growing and growing and sand boa females are known to be much heftier than males. But Dr. Feinsod probed the boa as male. Shocked the H*** outta me! I SOOO wanted my first breeding experience to be with this one individual snake. She/He was and still is, my favorite sand boa. But now I'm gonna have to save my pennies for a REAL female. Do I think the couple that sold me this snake misrepresented the boa? No. It was just a simple mistake and I would be more than happy to buy from them again.

I just want Dr. Feinsod to be with me when I find a female!:)

Devon

[ConcinusMan]

If you can't get a confirmed baby male to pop then you either aren't doing it right or it's a female.

Well, I was talking about adults. Some of those guys just won't pop even though I know they are male by watching them breed. It happened to redspot a few days ago too. Adult male just wouldn't pop. But this discussion is about babies anyway. They pop easily.




But seriously you gotta stop saying that visual is 100% accurate and there is no need to pop ever. ;) Because I am constantly seeing people make more mistakes when they don't do it.

I never said that. I just said that visual and/or scale counting has always worked for me, and mainly I'm talking only with concinnus and the reason I know it works for me is that they were always confirmed by popping, probing, or actual breeding. And of course, there's always a baby or two that you're just not sure of and they cannot be sexed visually.

[redspot]

I've been 100% accurate on selling a LOT of baby snakes. Right off the bat I visually sex them with I'd guess a 99% accuracy rating. I then pop them with a 80% accuracy conformation, then I probe them to make sure I have my bases totally covered.

If you plan on selling snakes it's as much your responsibility to accurately sex them as it is to have them feeding, arriving safe and in good health.

[mtolypetsupply]

I'm not having much luck popping my babies. I can pop baby corns, but it's not working well with these garter babies. There's no way I got ALL females! LOL!

Any tips?

[BUSHSNAKE]

keep practicing! youll get it, try on a known male first, bend... sqeeze

[aSnakeLovinBabe]

I'm not having much luck popping my babies. I can pop baby corns, but it's not working well with these garter babies. There's no way I got ALL females! LOL!

Any tips?

Stephi, bring the babies to the hamburg show on august 7th and I will be glad to pop them for you and help you get a handle on how to do it! :D

[Atlas511]

BACK TO MY MAIN QUESTION.. How do you not crush the babies when trying to sex? gentle hands or not!

[ConcinusMan]

I think somebody would have to post a video. It's something you have to see.

[mtolypetsupply]

It's easy to tell if you get them to "give it up". I told Shannon earlier, I have a Blizzard Radix female with loose morals. Girlfriend let it all hang out with no forcing. DEFINITELY a female!!!!!!

My Fl. Blue babies are sworn to secrecy. Bending them is near impossible, they're tighter than a frog's butt.

Looking at the positive side, at least my Blizzard Girl trusts me!!!!
\
:)

[Selkielass]

So are there any videos out there showing how this is done?

[aSnakeLovinBabe]

I suppose I might have to make one! You have to be gentle, very gentle, but firm at the same time. You just have to apply pressure in the right spot... you kinda need to roll your finger forward on the underside of the tail... hard to explain!

[ConcinusMan]

If you can't get a confirmed baby male to pop then you either aren't doing it right or it's a female. ;)

I do not believe that one bit. I've watched a guy pop one male after the other successfully, and then get a male that just wouldn't pop at all.

As a matter of fact, I highly suspect that my Amy is a male and Don says he pops the babies. Maybe this one wouldn't pop. When I hold her up to bright light I can see that there is something in that region of the tail. I mean, look at this:

http://a.imageshack.us/img155/3046/gedc1640large.jpg

I know it's hard because she flat refused to cooperate but every visual indication now that she's grown up some more, indicates male. The tail stays the same size for some distance after the vent. From above you can actually see a very slight bulge after the vent. I'd bet money "she" is a he.

[ConcinusMan]

This is the area I'm talking about. It is the same thickness as the area above the vent and when I hold her up to bright light, I can see there is something in there. I would post more pics but she's fighting me big time and It took quite a while to get a useable pic. She/he never fails to immediately take a position that is opposite of what I want.

http://a.imageshack.us/img841/3046/gedc1640large.jpg

[guidofatherof5]

Looks male to me. Even male in the face.
Slender, not as broad in the head as a female.

[ConcinusMan]

Funny thing is, he sent me one he calls a male but it looks female in the tail. That one has a much narrower head. I think I have a boy named Amy. Isn't that great.
http://img693.imageshack.us/img693/4852/dscn0643medium.jpg

Now how do you suppose this happened. I'm pretty darn sure Amy is a male. Now, either he wouldn't pop in spite of being done correctly, or there was a mix up of some kind. I've been looking for a male all this time to breed with Amy and I supposedly got one recently but now I am without a female. Grrrrr... Good luck finding a '09 or '08 female for sale. That's why I wanted to buy a female first and younger male later. Now I think I'm pretty much S.O.L.

[aSnakeLovinBabe]

Well the tail is kind of fat. But sometimes where they are in their "teenage" stage, they can look very similar. On my herping trip this weekend I did come across some teenage garters that I had to take a second look at and in some cases, pop to be sure. The thing is that in our hobby, these things are bound to happen. You have to learn to just take it as a part of our hobby and not beat yourself up over it too much. Sexing errors, however rare they are, happen. Whether you do have a male or a female, you do have a lovely, alive, healthy snake, and just because you can't breed it, doesn't ruin or subtract from the value of having it. There are many years ahead that your snake will be able to successfully breed. If your snake was one of a kind, or extremely rare, and it suddenly died, then you would be SOL.... but there are many cb radix floating around, and even if they are not iowa albinos, there are many other snakes that would be compatible that would throw iowa albino babies. Iowa snows, and of course, any snake that is het. I think that sometimes, we hobbyists become so immersed in attempting to breed our snakes and to find suitable mates quickly so that we have babies to sell that we forget to step back and just admire them, and be glad that they tolerate our company, and whether or not they ever breed for us should be the icing on the cake... not our main focus or reason for keeping them. So my dear, I would say you are far from being SOL. :o