Scaleless garter

[Jeff B]

I have seen pics of the scaleless corn and some other scaleless snake, can't remember if it was garter or not, maybe ball python. Joe mentioned in another post, does anyone have or know of or could post a pic of a scaleless garter?

[ConcinusMan]

Saw the scaleless corn. Very weird. Also very rare and expensive. Of course, it's also very awesome.

[snakeman]

http://www.thamnophis.com/thamphotos/data//500/medium/scaleless.jpg

[Stefan-A]

Of course, it's also very awesome.
Not the word I'd use to describe the inability to grow scales. Or produce melanin, for that matter.

[aSnakeLovinBabe]

holy CRAP! what happened to that animal?

[Laura]

It's had a shave

[mustang]

It's had a shave
thats a good way of puttn it:D

[Scott F]

Many years ago ( 8 or 9, maybe 10) a guy mailed me pics of scaless garters and knew of an existing population, believe they were found in PA. Tom you could start a hunting expedition lol

Scott

[Mommy2many]

How strange!

[BUSHSNAKE]

it was also in reptiles magazine

[Jeff B]

That thing is awesome, looks like a rubber snake. Would love to have one or a dozen of those.

[ssssnakeluvr]

awesome! would love to find a few! A wildlife officer new of a person out here in Salt Lake City a few years back that had found a scaleless wandering garter in the west side of the valley. I don't normally buy info like that when some random person tells me, but I trust this officer, I have known him for several years and he is a reptile enthusiast also.

[Nafun]

It looks like a painting of a snake.

[garterchick]

Is this a subspecies or a genetic defect, or what?

[MasSalvaje]

it was also in reptiles magazine

I saw that one, but was it a garter or nerodia? I will have to dig it up I guess.

Either way from what I remember from the story the owner collected or acquired a gravid female and one of the babies came out with no scales.

Like I said, I will have to dig it up.

-Thomas

[MasSalvaje]

Is this a subspecies or a genetic defect, or what?

I think genetic defect would be the best description.

-Thomas

[snakeman]

They kind of creep me out!

[gartermorphs]

http://market.kingsnake.com/image/1053488.jpg

i know this is a garter snake forum but keeping to the theme of scaless snakes look a these scaleless rattlers!

[Jeff B]

very cool looking snake but keeping hots is insane, I know I had a rattlesnake for about a month, that was 20 yrs ago, when I was young, ingnorant,fearless and invincible or so I thought, but even so I at least woke up after a month to the fact that keeping a rattlesnake in the house was an insane idea and gave it back to the guy I got it from. They are one of the prettiest snakes with super intense eyes though.

[gartermorphs]

yeah i was thinking about getting one for a while but decided against it. I think keeping a snake thats poisiness enough to kill you is absolutely insane. its not if you get bit its when lol

[redspot]

yeah i was thinking about getting one for a while but decided against it. I think keeping a snake thats poisiness enough to kill you is absolutely insane. its not if you get bit its when lol

Venomous not "poisiness"

Scaleless snakes are a genetic defect, not very cool.

[Jeff B]

"Scaleless snakes are a genetic defect, not very cool."

:eek:Whaaaaaaaaat????:D Everybody wants to see the freak show!!!

[mustang]

"Scaleless snakes are a genetic defect, not very cool."

:eek:Whaaaaaaaaat????:D Everybody wants to see the freak show!!!
"let the side show begin
hurry hurry
step right on in
cant afford to pass it by
guaranteed to make you cry":D

[count dewclaw]

Is it really a genetic defect? Or is it just another genetic trait? Who decides which traits are good and which are bad? For example, some could argue that albinism is a defect. Just throwing that out there as food for thought. Personally, I think the scaleless snakes look kind of interesting, not sure I would consider it a defect.

[Jeff B]

It has been show to be a recessive gene mutation in corns I believe, and would likely be the case with that garter. When people say genetic defect, perhaps it sounds like they are saying that it is a birth defect or developemental mishap, and that may be how you are taking it, but I think what they really mean is that it is a genetic mutation.

[infernalis]

Certain people consider anything other than "normal" defective.

I must be defective, cuz I'm far from normal.

[ConcinusMan]

Now wait a minute, most of our albino morphs, Iowa, Nebraska, etc.. are not created by selective breeding. The trait is straight from nature. All we do is breed in favor of it. If nature sees fit to have them around, then how can it be a "defect"?

I'm pretty sure the scaleless snake is completely a product of gene combinations/mutations brought together by man. It's not like somebody found a scaleless snake one day and started breeding in favor of the trait. In fact, that's not even possible with scaleless snakes so I hear. No, it first appeared in captive collections so it does seem a bit unnatural.

Many species, including homo sapiens have albinos. It's not like we created albino garters. Unlike the scaleless snake, albino garters existed long before we started breeding them.

[Napta]

False, it was already found in nature scalesless perfectly viable. And the first born among Colubiasnakes scalesless Corn is not derived from desired selection. It is a random natural as well as the albino.

[GartersRock]

Now wait a minute, most of our albino morphs, Iowa, Nebraska, etc.. are not created by selective breeding. The trait is straight from nature. All we do is breed in favor of it. If nature sees fit to have them around, then how can it be a "defect"?

I'm pretty sure the scaleless snake is completely a product of gene combinations/mutations brought together by man. It's not like somebody found a scaleless snake one day and started breeding in favor of the trait. In fact, that's not even possible with scaleless snakes so I hear. No, it first appeared in captive collections so it does seem a bit unnatural.

Many species, including homo sapiens have albinos. It's not like we created albino garters. Unlike the scaleless snake, albino garters existed long before we started breeding them.

If it can suddenly exist in captivity it can exist in nature. It's not like we created the ability for the scaleless gene to appear.

[aSnakeLovinBabe]

Now wait a minute, most of our albino morphs, Iowa, Nebraska, etc.. are not created by selective breeding. The trait is straight from nature. All we do is breed in favor of it. If nature sees fit to have them around, then how can it be a "defect"?

I'm pretty sure the scaleless snake is completely a product of gene combinations/mutations brought together by man. It's not like somebody found a scaleless snake one day and started breeding in favor of the trait. In fact, that's not even possible with scaleless snakes so I hear. No, it first appeared in captive collections so it does seem a bit unnatural.

Many species, including homo sapiens have albinos. It's not like we created albino garters. Unlike the scaleless snake, albino garters existed long before we started breeding them.

You are wrong here....Scaleless snakes have been found in the wild and/or born from wild mothers on multiple occasions. Scaleless is not some "product" of humans... it is a naturally occuring genetic mutation just as albino. Instead of lacking the ability to produce melanin, these animals lack the ability to produce scales. Same exact idea, different chromosomes and genes. Somebody emailed me and brought up how a friend of his found a garter snake that was scaless in his own yard. Sadly the guy failed miserably at keeping garter snakes and killed his whole project. I was emailed photos ofthe WC animal, it had a few scales scattered over its naked body as scaleless snakes often do. I have like 10 email addresses though so digging it up seems a daunting task. But scaleless snakes have been found, just as albinos, and then people selectively breed for the trait.

Look at this here... this hatchling scaleless gopher was found in the wild and then studied:

http://compphys.bio.uci.edu/bennett/pubs/4.pdf

[infernalis]

Thanks ladies.

I was going to say to Richard that mad scientists are certainly not performing genetic experiments to remove scales from any snake.

Selective breeding must begin with at least one specimen that occurred naturally.

So the only other alternative is a naturally occurring mutation.

[Jeff B]

Yep, mutations are just random occurring events, (it's just a numbers game, millions of replication events and sooner or later a mistake will happen) and if that mistake ends up in one of the parental gamates and it's in a gene that effects the phenotype (look) of the snake in some dramatic way, then "wahla" we have a new morph.

This is the natural process which occurs in the wild and is how the vast majority of the base morph mutations come into the hobby (periodically morph mutations will pop out in captivity).

Now that is completely different, than the process that we (the breeders) use to create DESIGNER morphs or combination morphs, were by we are basically exploiting and combining multiple mutations or traits to achieve a new and argueably improved phenotype (look) to a snake and then we give them a cool, fancy names to "improve" marketability (I personally am not a fan of most fancy designer phenotype names, I would prefer to stick with genotype nomenclature, but thats not what "sells").

[infernalis]

Awe come on, I like my "Jeff snows"

[aSnakeLovinBabe]

haha.... I like to call the easterns "Dirty Snows" :D

[ConcinusMan]

OK well obviously the information about scaleless snakes that I read was totally erroneous.:rolleyes:


If it can suddenly exist in captivity it can exist in nature. It's not like we created the ability for the scaleless gene to appear.

Key word being "can". And actually, if some trait comes from some combinations of multiple mutations or recessive genes, then quite frankly it's NOT going to happen in nature. "Can" and "Does" are not the same.

[infernalis]

OK well obviously the information about scaleless snakes that I read was totally erroneous.:rolleyes:

can you post a link? please don't say it's a wiki.

[ConcinusMan]

Now that you ask, it wasn't actually what I read, as it was what was said in a video by someone who has produced them. I still do not believe that you can breed scaleless snakes like you would albinos. It's not that simple. You don't see dozens of scaleless snakes being produced every year because it can't be done. That's why they're so expensive.

Well forget everything I said. I'm checking now and finding nothing but conflicting information. One person says it's not just a simple recessive trait, and another says it is.:rolleyes:

[infernalis]

gotta love the interwebz

[Danny]

Is there any way to buy one of these?

[Jeff B]

Now that you ask, it wasn't actually what I read, as it was what was said in a video by someone who has produced them. I still do not believe that you can breed scaleless snakes like you would albinos. It's not that simple. You don't see dozens of scaleless snakes being produced every year because it can't be done. That's why they're so expensive.

Well forget everything I said. I'm checking now and finding nothing but conflicting information. One person says it's not just a simple recessive trait, and another says it is.:rolleyes:

Richard it is that simple, I believe it's actually been proven to be a simple recessive gene in the corn snake, and other rat snakes, pretty sure BHB has a group that they are working with, among a few other breeders, but there are reasons you see dozens available every year. Not having scales makes for a frail snake, not easy to grow or breed, plus the fact that they aren't going to just be unleashed to the public without lots of stock animals built up and crossed with other genes to make combos, otherwise you could potientially crash your own market, plus having a hefty price tag limits the numbers sold and no need to advertise when the demand is that high. These are similar reasons that you don't see dozens of Silver eastern garter snakes available every year, nor will you likely anytime soon in the future.

[ConcinusMan]

Then why the difference with all the common albinos? I mean, they are relatively inexpensive and available. I'd like to start producing the blue anery concinnus and make them available but like you were saying I don't want to "crash my own market".

[infernalis]

A recent example of this would be the albino red sided, just a couple years ago they were expensive as heck, and rare in collections, a few people saw dollar signs and purchased pairs or trios and bred them.

Now this year the going price is 1/3 what it was 2 years ago and the dreaded bugeye from repeat inbreeding is surfacing in the stock being offered.

[aSnakeLovinBabe]

I know a guy who breeds scaleless texas rats. Talk to him every show.... he's usually got some at his table. Their coloration and patterning is out of this world, very different from any texas rat with scales. Scaleless-ness in both snakes and bearded dragons intensifies the color... it's mesmerizing at times. Scaleless snakes are really not that frail, they eat shed and grow like a normal snake, it's just that very few people still have them, and those who do, are not selling any, or only are selling them at very high prices.

[Jeff B]

A recent example of this would be the albino red sided, just a couple years ago they were expensive as heck, and rare in collections, a few people saw dollar signs and purchased pairs or trios and bred them.

Now this year the going price is 1/3 what it was 2 years ago and the dreaded bugeye from repeat inbreeding is surfacing in the stock being offered.

Wayne, the price drop was set by Scott, I don't think this market was crashed with overproduction as much as a lack of interest by buyers for anything other than eastern garter morph, thats where the demand is, prices never stay the same over the first 3yrs with any morph, to my knowledge only 3-4 people produced albino re-sideds this year. I have had no problem selling them at the same price Scott set, and am almost sold out and I am sure the few that I have left will sell in the fall for even more money than the babies. I personally started with two unrelated double het pairs (double het for albino and anery) and none of my babies this year or last have bug eyes. Not sure who you are refering to.
Could you please futher substantiate your claims

[aSnakeLovinBabe]

I agree... I have not seen any bug eyed albino redsideds? They have not been mass produced either, nothing like the albino checkered, if any snake would have bug eyes from excessive inbreeding it would be those! My albino redsided girlie is such a stunner... can't wait to pair her with that anery male that was once yours jeff!

[ConcinusMan]

Well that just happens to be one of my favorite albinos. Just about any albino with deep red or orange on it is great but the red-sideds are just spectacular. Still too darn expensive for me right now.

[aSnakeLovinBabe]

Well that just happens to be one of my favorite albinos. Just about any albino with deep red or orange on it is great but the red-sideds are just spectacular. Still too darn expensive for me right now.

What nice about the albino redsided is that the red is just there... no playing around with flames, or erythristics to hope you get some red ones!!!

[Jeff B]

I agree... I have not seen any bug eyed albino redsideds? They have not been mass produced either, nothing like the albino checkered, if any snake would have bug eyes from excessive inbreeding it would be those! My albino redsided girlie is such a stunner... can't wait to pair her with that anery male that was once yours jeff!

Yeah, Shannon how's that ole boy doing? he was such a nice snake and handsome too, I don't know why I ever got rid of him, that's one snake that i have thought many times, why did I get rid of him. I also wonder why I sold one of my flame females last year. I still think the albino red-sided is the nicest looking of all albinos, and they usually have super nice dispositions too, compaired to some of my cranky easterns, the problem with their popularity is there isn't umpteen other red-sided morphs to cross them to, like there is with the easterns.
Hey it would be cool if you produce some babies from that cross if I could get a baby or two from you, good for outcrossing but also kinda nostalgic too.

[infernalis]

Tell me these betty boop eyes look normal to you.....Even a guy up the street who knows nothing about snakes said to me just last week "wow those eyes look huge"

http://www.thamfriends.com/forum/picture.php?albumid=69&pictureid=1272

http://www.thamnophis.us/thams/albino.jpg

[Jeff B]

hmmm Yeah I don't know maybe a little big, not freakishly big though. I've noticed some variablility of eye size in general. Even the wild caught mertle beach has unusually big head and huge eyes and I have a couple snakes that seem like they have unusually small eyes, my adult nebraska albino has small eyes, but they look perfect. I think the albinos tend to look bigger without the pigment, but I see your point. Is that a snake I produced? I don't think you have bought any albino red-sided from me?

[aSnakeLovinBabe]

Bug eyed is also an actual on/off mutation.... seen quite often in texas rat snakes. They eyes are so unaturally large, that they are unmistakable! I have seen even normal wild garter snakes that seemed to have larger, more pokey looking eyes. My female erythristic (wc) has huge buggy eyes. I bet when she was a baby, her eyes looked a lot like that!

[ConcinusMan]

Come to think of it, my Amy (from Don) is quite "bug-eyed". I didn't think much of it. She's no more bug-eyed than some normal CB or even wild Radixes her age I've seen in photos.

[mustang]

well now that were talkn bout eyes i got a question...when yall handlle, or do anything at all do you ever notice the snakes iris(color part of eye) turn black...later it will return to normal

[ConcinusMan]

I do see the iris open and contract, yes. It happens if you feed in low light too. Anytime the snakes go on full alert for any reason, the iris opens wide. It's easy to see when the eye color itself is red or gold. Harder to see on dark colored eyes.

[mustang]

I do see the iris open and contract, yes. It happens if you feed in low light too. Anytime the snakes go on full alert for any reason, the iris opens wide. It's easy to see when the eye color itself is red or gold. Harder to see on dark colored eyes.
like the ring gets thinner from the outside not innside(not like our eyes) ittl look like its bleeding black into the iris

[jere000]

As or right now i have seen a scaleless garter snake,death adder,rattlesnake,and corn snake which is made from hybridizing i believe.

[Invisible Snake]

Interesting read.

Has anyone recently seen any scaleless garters?

[guidofatherof5]

Only in my dreams.:D

[ssssnakeluvr]

there was a scaleless wandering found in the Salt Lake valley a few years back... a Wildlife Officer knew the guy that found it, said it was an odd looking snake... not sure what happened with it... he wanted it, but the guy didn't want to give it up... been looking a lot myself but just can't find any..

[RedSidedSPR]

Why the hell would you want a snake to not have scales? Surely that can't be a good thing

[Steveo]

I always thought the term "scaleless" was just an aesthetic exaggeration... not that they actually lack scales...

[RedSidedSPR]

They have no scales far as I can tell.

[ProXimuS]

Very strange.....It just seems like it wouldn't be good for them to have no scales....

[Stefan-A]

Very strange.....It just seems like it wouldn't be good for them to have no scales....
It's not. Scales protect the skin.

[RedSidedSPR]

So removing that protection is a good thing how?

[guidofatherof5]

So removing that protection is a good thing how?

Only good for the humans that make money from it.

[Stefan-A]

So removing that protection is a good thing how?
It's not.

[RedSidedSPR]

http://i.imgur.com/COqML.png

[EasternGirl]

Hmm...I think they are interesting looking, but I would think that the reason why you don't come across many in the wild is because they have a very difficult time surviving without the protection of scales.

[MasSalvaje]

They have no scales far as I can tell.

All of the scaleless snakes I have seen retain their ventral scales. I haven't seen more than a handful so that doesn't mean they all keep their ventral scales, just as far as my personal observation goes.

-Thomas

[RedSidedSPR]

All of the scaleless snakes I have seen retain their ventral scales. I haven't seen more than a handful so that doesn't mean they all keep their ventral scales, just as far as my personal observation goes.

-Thomas

That's a good thing I guess...

[Stefan-A]

That's a good thing I guess...
Better than nothing, but still bad.

[Lisa4john]

I'll stick to the snakes with scales thanks, I am not so fond of the naked ones, they creep me out too. ;)

[RedSidedSPR]

Better than nothing, but still bad.

Definately not something I'd want to see being bred.

[Steveo]

Also not a fan of hairless cats/dogs/whatever. Though on women it's not so bad, I have enough hair for two :p

[Invisible Snake]

I would love to own a scaleless garter!

[katach]

Wouldn't they require extra care, no uv and less heat and nothing sharp or pointy?

[ConcinusMan]

there was a scaleless wandering found in the Salt Lake valley a few years back... a Wildlife Officer knew the guy that found it, said it was an odd looking snake... not sure what happened with it... he wanted it, but the guy didn't want to give it up... been looking a lot myself but just can't find any..

I believe the photo earlier in this thread, is a wandering.;)

[ConcinusMan]

Hmm...I think they are interesting looking, but I would think that the reason why you don't come across many in the wild is because they have a very difficult time surviving without the protection of scales.

I don't think so. Perhaps a little more vulnerable to skin scratches is all. I think amelanism is more dangerous due to the fact that snakes need warm up in the sun (they can sunburn) and it makes them stick out like a sore thumb to predators and yet we still find them in the wild. But it is a recessive trait, which makes it rare enough to produce a specimen. It takes both of it's parents to carry the gene in order for the snake to be scaleless. Think about that for a minute. The odds aren't great of producing one unless there are a lot of snakes in a population that carry the gene. Plus, it can be inherited and passed on for many generations without producing any scaleless snakes. So, this one does exist so somewhere out there in that population are others, perhaps many others, that carry the gene but aren't scaleless themselves. But they would never produce one unless two of those that carry the gene got together and mated.

[Stefan-A]

Perhaps a little more vulnerable to skin scratches is all.
A lot more. Scratches, cuts and abrasions all increase the risk of infection and the lack of scales makes the animal especially vulnerable to external parasites.

[snake man]

personally I think that scale-less snake is a bad idea and a little cruel to the snakes, there is a reason why they have scales in the first place.

[ConcinusMan]

Then there's a reason why some don't and a reason why the gene for it still exists. There's nothing cruel about it. It has no effect on their quality of life, at least not in captivity.

If that's cruel, then so is allowing people with birth defects, to live.

[Stefan-A]

Then there's a reason why some don't and a reason why the gene for it still exists.
The gene for it exists because of random mutations. The reason it still exists, is that it's not expressed in all snakes that carry it. The reason it's not expressed more often, is that it's acted upon by natural selection when it does. And if it wasn't harmful, or if scales weren't worth the energy that goes into growing and maintaining them, scalelessness would quickly push the scaliness out of the pool.


There's nothing cruel about it.
Indeed, cruelty implies malicious intent.


It has no effect on their quality of life, at least not in captivity.
Probably not in a nice sterile tub.


If that's cruel, then so is allowing people with birth defects, to live.
Intentionally breeding people with birth defects for freak shows, would be analogous to breeding scaleless snakes for the pet trade.

[ConcinusMan]

Well, so far I've seen no indication that intentional breeding for the gene has even happened or is going to happen. Although, it has been done with corn snakes.

I really don't understand all the negative responses. It's really no different than other mutations we breed for, including amelanism. I can think of many harmful side effects associated with that mutation.

[Stefan-A]

I really don't understand all the negative responses. It's really no different than other mutations we breed for, including amelanism. I can think of many harmful side effects associated with that mutation.
I've spoken out against that, too.

[-MARWOLAETH-]

I think the snake looks a lot better with scales and would better off with them.They help give traction when swimming and protect when climbing.I personally don't see why defective animals are so prized.

[ConcinusMan]

Novelty, for one thing.

[BLUESIRTALIS]

I think a scaleless snake would have a hard life outdoors, but would thrive and do just fine indoors with proper husbandry. I know the scaleless texas rats have proved to do real well in a captive life. I think i would consider getting a scaleless garter for a pet because i always thought the scaleless texas rats looked awesome. I know they are not for everyone and some people think they look freakish, but i find them very interesting. As far as external parasites go i think they would be much easier to get rid of because of less hiding places on the snake.

[ConcinusMan]

Novelty, for one thing.

But then again, snakes are a novelty anyway. It's just that when they become so common, and more people keep them, the novelty wears off and you have to take it to the next level by having mutations. This is nothing new. It goes on with birds and many other animals too.

[Greg'sGarters]

I think it looks cool, but I believe that usually scaleless reptiles have more problems with shedding.

[aSnakeLovinBabe]

I think it looks cool, but I believe that usually scaleless reptiles have more problems with shedding.

That is incorrect... and it's amazing this misinformation gets spread around so much still. They shed completely normal... like any other snake. In captivity being a scaleless does not affect their quality of life at all. They go about their lives the same as any other snake does. Eating, pooping, shedding, crawling around... They have all of their belly scales, so crawling is really no different for them. They also have facial scales and usually one or two rows of dorsal scales. Ultimately scaleless snakes in captivity is simply a visual abnormality.

Bearded dragons... different story. They have to constantly be monitored and peeled or they lose fingers and stuff.

Either way... I have mixed feelings about scaleless snakes. In captivity, it doesn't affect them. They aren't suffering, it's not cruel... it just is what it is. I don't even really like amels all too much either but hardly anyone who is so against the scaleless thing gives two thoughts or cares about amelanism and the adverse effects it has on vision. I personally would have a much large problem with people doing things such as breeding eyeless animals where their quality of life is obvious altered as it completely removes one of their 5 vital senses.

[aquamentus_11]

I agree. This isn't decreasing its quality of life. As far as human-selected, less-fit traits go, this is pretty tame. (compare to "midget" kittens and any form of lap dog...) its skin is very beautiful and interesting to actually see like this, but selecting for it just doesn't seem like the right thing to do.

i bet it bruises easily:mad:

[guidofatherof5]

I also imagine they are more susceptible to skin injury and infection.

[aSnakeLovinBabe]

I also imagine they are more susceptible to skin injury and infection.

I know several people who keep them. It's not as fragile as you would think. It does feel exceptionally weird. It's extremely smooth feeling. Like silk. As long as you are keeping your animals in good conditions and feeding f/t or dead prey, you have nothing to be concerned about.

[guidofatherof5]

I know several people who keep them. It's not as fragile as you would think. It does feel exceptionally weird. It's extremely smooth feeling. Like silk. As long as you are keeping your animals in good conditions and feeding f/t or dead prey, you have nothing to be concerned about.

I guess my comment was to the fact they don't have scales protecting their skin.

[aSnakeLovinBabe]

I guess my comment was to the fact they don't have scales protecting their skin.

If they were being attacked by a predator they would definitely be at much greater risk than a snake with scales.