Please explain the Xmas Albinos to me!

[Atlas511]

Im new... or just point me to a link where I can read about xmas albinos.

1. Is it a simple ressesive
2. Is the a such thing as an Xmas without being albino
3. Can you tell the difference at birth
4. Is xmas albino an additional gene to albino or is it another strain or albino all together
5. can you post pics of examples please.

[infernalis]

Someone correct me if I am wrong here.



Mine has crazy coloring. I bet it would also be very attractive with the black still in place.

http://www.thamfriends.com/forum/picture.php?albumid=69&pictureid=1357


Im new... or just point me to a link where I can read about xmas albinos.

1. Is it a simple ressesive
2. Is the a such thing as an Xmas without being albino
3. Can you tell the difference at birth
4. Is xmas albino an additional gene to albino or is it another strain or albino all together
5. can you post pics of examples please.

1. Not sure
2. no - it would just be a really pretty radix.
3. yes - however they color up more as they age. Some do not.
4. To get a "Christmas" you cross an albino radix with a high red or high orange radix. The albinism removes the black pigment highlighting the red/orange.

5. see above.


This picture was taken of the same snake when it was about 2 months old.

http://www.danceswithreptiles.com/cool/christmas.jpg

[prattypus]

Wow- Wayne- really colored up- Looks knitted- ah, just like grandma used to make.

[ssssnakeluvr]

Im new... or just point me to a link where I can read about xmas albinos.

1. Is it a simple ressesive
2. Is the a such thing as an Xmas without being albino
3. Can you tell the difference at birth
4. Is xmas albino an additional gene to albino or is it another strain or albino all together
5. can you post pics of examples please.

it's a recessive gene. I do have a quad het albino female with orange coloration coming in..not as bright on a normal colored snake. the orange can be real faint at birth, gets brighter as the snake grows older. it is not a separate albino gene, just an additional color phase of the albino gene....just a different gene that adds orange color. I will post pics a little later

[Atlas511]

So would Xmas be more or a selective breeding? from an attractive animal

[Atlas511]

Someone correct me if I am wrong here.



Mine has crazy coloring. I bet it would also be very attractive with the black still in place.

http://www.thamfriends.com/forum/picture.php?albumid=69&pictureid=1357



1. Not sure
2. no - it would just be a really pretty radix.
3. yes - however they color up more as they age. Some do not.
4. To get a "Christmas" you cross an albino radix with a high red or high orange radix. The albinism removes the black pigment highlighting the red/orange.

5. see above.


This picture was taken of the same snake when it was about 2 months old.

http://www.danceswithreptiles.com/cool/christmas.jpg



Is this an Iowa Albino???

[BUSHSNAKE]

the christmas albino comes from the Iowa albino strain, so yes that is an Iowa albino, the christmas albino looks like a normal Iowa albino at birth and with each shed the red pigment develops.

[ssssnakeluvr]

here's my nebraska xmas female

http://i59.photobucket.com/albums/g302/ssssnakeluvr/DSCF1005-1.jpg

http://i59.photobucket.com/albums/g302/ssssnakeluvr/DSCF1006-1.jpg

http://i59.photobucket.com/albums/g302/ssssnakeluvr/DSCF1007-2.jpg

[BUSHSNAKE]

Nice Nebraska Albino Don, but now your just gonna confuse this guy

[Atlas511]

Im past confused lol! but im figureing it out! thanks for all yoru help guys. I hope to get my hands on some cool genetics soon!

[infernalis]

Nice Nebraska Albino Don, but now your just gonna confuse this guy


I thought that was an Iowa albino, don't Nebraska albinos have a caramel color to them? I'm going by what Scott labeled them as when I got them.

http://www.danceswithreptiles.com/Thamnophis_files/sky.jpg

[BUSHSNAKE]

oh no, now your confused Wayne

[BUSHSNAKE]

hey Atlas, Jeff Benfer and i are doing the Wheaton show on August 15(sunday show)we should have plenty of cool garters...stop on by

[Atlas511]

I thought that was an Iowa albino, don't Nebraska albinos have a caramel color to them? I'm going by what Scott labeled them as when I got them.

http://www.danceswithreptiles.com/Thamnophis_files/sky.jpg

Im in LOVE with this Morph!


hey Atlas, Jeff Benfer and i are doing the Wheaton show on August 15(sunday show)we should have plenty of cool garters...stop on by

I will be there for sure. a week b4 my BDAY! new snakes for sure!

[ssssnakeluvr]

my photos are of a nebraska albino with orange coloration....1 of only 3 of them in existence at this time.... I own this one, turning brighter by the day, a friend in Salt Lake City owns the other, orange is not quite as bright, and I have a female that is starting to show orange (and available, eating well!) I had 2 Iowa albinos with orange, but they passed away

[BUSHSNAKE]

cool don, what are the parents on the orange N albino

[Jeff B]

All of the albinos to date are simple recessive. The xmas was/is a discriptive term to describe the albino with the oranges that Scott produced a few years back, the way Scott explained to me was that the original xmas albino animal was the result of crossing an Iowa locale to an Illinoise locale albino which proved to be compatible with the Iowa albino, so it was essentially the Iowa albino reccessive gene but it produced a pretty colorfull type Iowa albino (and it was called the xmas albino).
Currently there are only two distinct proven NON-COMPATIBLE albino genes in the plains garter T.radix: 1) Iowa albino 2) Nebraska albino

Now if Don wants to call his Nebraska albino with oranges showing a xmas Nebraska that is fine, xmas is just a descriptive term for a visual color strain albino, not a gene with proven predictable inheritance.

If xmas albino was a distict single gene truely worthy of calling offspring from a xmas albino x normal breeding, then if you bred those offspring to each other you would produce statistically:
25% Xmas albinos (all would be Xmas albino no normal looking albinos)
50% het Xmas albinos (all het for Xmas and would only produce Xmas in next generation.
25% normals.
granted the last two sets would all be normal looking and indesernable so they would be labeled 66% poss hets.
but the above breeding has in fact proven that is does NOT yeild all Xmas albinos.

But let me make it clear that a normal looking animal with genetic background from Iowa albino and Xmas albino background is NOT a double HET, it is only HET for Iowa albino with the background genes (as in polygenic) to possible produce a xmas albino animal which is just a color strain type of that albino, because that color type (Xmas) has not proven to be a single point mutation with predictable inheritance pattern.

Just like it is not correct to say het for snow, that animal is het for albino and het for anerythristic, not het for snow, because snow is not a single gene, but yes if the offspring het two copies of albino and two copies of anerythristic (double homogygous) one copy of both genes from both parents then it will be a snow.

Don saying quad het is technically a misnomer too, and I understand sometimes it's just easier to describe it that way ect. ect. but the animal may be het for Iowa albino, het for Nebraska albino and het for anerythristic, thats 3 genes so that is a triple het, now it very well may have the genes for red color strain too, so it could produce Xmas albinos, and while the two different albino genes and anerythristic togather are capable of producing both Iowa snow and Nebraska snows as well, but those don't qualify and as single loci allele genes that have a single copy of the allele pair to qualify them as heterozygous (het), so you really can't technically correctly say they are het for Nebraska snow, or het for Iowa snow either.

Lets stop using the term het incorrectly and confusing new people. Het which is short for heterozygous, can only be correctly used for a single copy of a pair of alleles on a single loci (from a proven single point mutation)

Now if I'm wrong i'm wrong but so far from the information that I have gathered combined with my own breedings this is how it is, and untill I see better evidence of a predictible inheritance pattern from these red genes I will continue to assume they are polygenic traits, or in simplest terms; color strains.

[BUSHSNAKE]

the Illinois animal was a red hypo not albino, so the original parents would be red hypo x Iowa albino, i believe not 100% sure

[ssssnakeluvr]

All of the albinos to date are simple recessive. The xmas was/is a discriptive term to describe the albino with the oranges that Scott produced a few years back, the way Scott explained to me was that the original xmas albino animal was the result of crossing an Iowa locale to an Illinoise locale albino which proved to be compatible with the Iowa albino, so it was essentially the Iowa albino reccessive gene but it produced a pretty colorfull type Iowa albino (and it was called the xmas albino).
Currently there are only two distinct proven NON-COMPATIBLE albino genes in the plains garter T.radix: 1) Iowa albino 2) Nebraska albino

Now if Don wants to call his Nebraska albino with oranges showing a xmas Nebraska that is fine, xmas is just a descriptive term for a visual color strain albino, not a gene with proven predictable inheritance.

If xmas albino was a distict single gene truely worthy of calling offspring from a xmas albino x normal breeding, then if you bred those offspring to each other you would produce statistically:
25% Xmas albinos (all would be Xmas albino no normal looking albinos)
50% het Xmas albinos (all het for Xmas and would only produce Xmas in next generation.
25% normals.
granted the last two sets would all be normal looking and indesernable so they would be labeled 66% poss hets.
but the above breeding has in fact proven that is does NOT yeild all Xmas albinos.

But let me make it clear that a normal looking animal with genetic background from Iowa albino and Xmas albino background is NOT a double HET, it is only HET for Iowa albino with the background genes (as in polygenic) to possible produce a xmas albino animal which is just a color strain type of that albino, because that color type (Xmas) has not proven to be a single point mutation with predictable inheritance pattern.

Just like it is not correct to say het for snow, that animal is het for albino and het for anerythristic, not het for snow, because snow is not a single gene, but yes if the offspring het two copies of albino and two copies of anerythristic (double homogygous) one copy of both genes from both parents then it will be a snow.

Don saying quad het is technically a misnomer too, and I understand sometimes it's just easier to describe it that way ect. ect. but the animal may be het for Iowa albino, het for Nebraska albino and het for anerythristic, thats 3 genes so that is a triple het, now it very well may have the genes for red color strain too, so it could produce Xmas albinos, and while the two different albino genes and anerythristic togather are capable of producing both Iowa snow and Nebraska snows as well, but those don't qualify and as single loci allele genes that have a single copy of the allele pair to qualify them as heterozygous (het), so you really can't technically correctly say they are het for Nebraska snow, or het for Iowa snow either.

Lets stop using the term het incorrectly and confusing new people. Het which is short for heterozygous, can only be correctly used for a single copy of a pair of alleles on a single loci (from a proven single point mutation)

Now if I'm wrong i'm wrong but so far from the information that I have gathered combined with my own breedings this is how it is, and untill I see better evidence of a predictible inheritance pattern from these red genes I will continue to assume they are polygenic traits, or in simplest terms; color strains.
Very well put.... I bow to the king of genetics! :D

[aSnakeLovinBabe]

my photos are of a nebraska albino with orange coloration....1 of only 3 of them in existence at this time.... I own this one, turning brighter by the day, a friend in Salt Lake City owns the other, orange is not quite as bright, and I have a female that is starting to show orange (and available, eating well!) I had 2 Iowa albinos with orange, but they passed away

wait... my nebraska albino has orange coloration too!?!

Not as much as yours, but she definitely has orange!

[BUSHSNAKE]

you lie!

[aSnakeLovinBabe]

you lie!


haha... I lie?! Well then I must be colorblind or something... :eek:

[BUSHSNAKE]

lets see smarty pants

[aSnakeLovinBabe]

haha... I just took some pics! She is in deep shed. but even then you can see it. give me a few minutes :p

[BUSHSNAKE]

thats what they all say...lol

[aSnakeLovinBabe]

hehehe here you go! The orange actually shows through a little even when shes in blue!

http://i286.photobucket.com/albums/ll86/aSnakeLovinBabe/3568002.jpg

http://i286.photobucket.com/albums/ll86/aSnakeLovinBabe/3568004.jpg

http://i286.photobucket.com/albums/ll86/aSnakeLovinBabe/3568003.jpg





.... instructions:

1. choose left or right foot
2. inert chosen foot into mouth
3. GET SOME

hahaha

[BUSHSNAKE]

there she is

[infernalis]

Get a room you twohttp://ball-pythons.net/forums/images/smilies/banana.gif

[ConcinusMan]

here's my nebraska xmas female

http://i59.photobucket.com/albums/g302/ssssnakeluvr/DSCF1005-1.jpg

http://i59.photobucket.com/albums/g302/ssssnakeluvr/DSCF1006-1.jpg

http://i59.photobucket.com/albums/g302/ssssnakeluvr/DSCF1007-2.jpg

OMG, What a gorgeous snake!

[bkhuff1s]

This thread makes me laugh. Everyone is so confused lol

[ConcinusMan]

This thread makes me laugh. Everyone is so confused lol


Don't speak for me, I'm not confused at all.

[bkhuff1s]

Not speaking for you then :)

[Jeff B]

Very well put.... I bow to the king of genetics! :D

Don,
No need to bow, I just call it how I see it, and from the current information thats how I see it, in the future with new information my understanding and view could change, hope i didn't offend anyone by expressing my view.
By the way Don that Xmas Nebraska is smoking, so smoking that you deserve to call it what ever you want and quite frankly I think it is fitting and in line with the evolution of the designer nomenclature to call it Xmas Nebraska.

[ConcinusMan]

It certainly is!

[ssssnakeluvr]

Don,
No need to bow, I just call it how I see it, and from the current information thats how I see it, in the future with new information my understanding and view could change, hope i didn't offend anyone by expressing my view.
By the way Don that Xmas Nebraska is smoking, so smoking that you deserve to call it what ever you want and quite frankly I think it is fitting and in line with the evolution of the designer nomenclature to call it Xmas Nebraska.
Thanks Jeff! she is sweet!!! well...you are kind of the master of the genetics....I know a little, but not near as much as you. :cool:

[Jeff B]

You know, there is so little that we actually collectively know about snake genetics, even less specifically about garter snake genetics, we just take what we see and put our best guess to it based on the human and general snake models. To me that's part of the fun of breeding, the guessing, proving, and learning.....basically the scientific method applied to garter snake via breeding. The best part for me personally about the example model below of the scientific method is the part that loops back "Think! Try Again"


Ask a Question
Do Background Research
Construct a Hypothesis
Test Your Hypothesis by Doing an Experiment
Analyze Your Data and Draw a Conclusion
Communicate Your Results
http://www.sciencebuddies.com/mentoring/overview_scientific_method2.gif

[ConcinusMan]

No need to test. I am right and that's all there is to it.:rolleyes:

[Atlas511]

wow! what a way to start my day! I dont even know what day it is anymore.. I think i see little birdies above my head lol.

But i think I get it!

Can I be a jerk and try to relate them to Ball Pythons??? to help my brain... let say there is albino AND a "high contrast albino" (which there is). Now when those two breed together they will produce albinos and some high contrast albino. Which means it is a strain or form of that albino. Compatible but not an actual second gene in play. Just a breed in "color phase" of the origional albino... most likley through selective breeding OR a "special" looking animal breed into the origional albino..?????????

please forgive me for relating to ball pythons..

[gartermorphs]

please forgive me for relating to ball pythons..





thats what i did at first ^^^ its okay lol

[mustang]

You know, there is so little that we actually collectively know about snake genetics, even less specifically about garter snake genetics, we just take what we see and put our best guess to it based on the human and general snake models. To me that's part of the fun of breeding, the guessing, proving, and learning.....basically the scientific method applied to garter snake via breeding. The best part for me personally about the example model below of the scientific method is the part that loops back "Think! Try Again"


Ask a Question
Do Background Research
Construct a Hypothesis
Test Your Hypothesis by Doing an Experiment
Analyze Your Data and Draw a Conclusion
Communicate Your Results
http://www.sciencebuddies.com/mentoring/overview_scientific_method2.gif
scientific method!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! oh boy science fair!!!!!!!!!

[Jeff B]

wow! what a way to start my day! I dont even know what day it is anymore.. I think i see little birdies above my head lol.

But i think I get it!

Can I be a jerk and try to relate them to Ball Pythons??? to help my brain... let say there is albino AND a "high contrast albino" (which there is). Now when those two breed together they will produce albinos and some high contrast albino. Which means it is a strain or form of that albino. Compatible but not an actual second gene in play. Just a breed in "color phase" of the origional albino... most likley through selective breeding OR a "special" looking animal breed into the origional albino..?????????

please forgive me for relating to ball pythons..

Yep! you got it

[Charis]

Thanks for explaining the Xmas part! I'd wondered about it too. I have another question, though. Are there 3 strains of albino? The Schuett? (sp?) Or is that something else?

[Atlas511]

Yep! you got it

Really?!?! not bad for a new guy huh?:)




Thanks for explaining the Xmas part! I'd wondered about it too. I have another question, though. Are there 3 strains of albino? The Schuett? (sp?) Or is that something else?

Im new but T.Radix has 2. Iowa and Nebraska strain. Iowa is compatible it the Illinois collected albinos... Schuett albino is in Eastern Garters.

[Jeff B]

to my knowledge there are the 2 proven different (incompatible) T.radix albinos:
1)iowa
2)nebraska
also Steve had a wild caught with orange and my wild caught this year both not yet tested for compatibilty to detirmine if different gene that the current well established strains. Also Scott said someone found another in Nebraska recently

There is also the T.sirtalis sirtalis, currently 4 albinos that I am aware of
1)Shuett
2)Bluegrass
the Sheutt and bluegrass have been proven to not be compatible
3)Florida albino
4)Midwest albino
The New York paradox albino has yet to be reproduced
The last two (florida and midwest) have not been tested for compatibilty with the others to my knowledge.
There have been others before, the New York paradox albino has yet to be reproduced and others have come and gone

There is also the 2 red-sided albino strains T. sirtalis parietalis
1) the kansas strain
2) the Iowa strain
Not sure but I don't think they have been tested for compatibility either.

There is also the albino checkered. T. marcianus

There may be more out there that I am unaware of, and certainly some other have been found but didn't make their way into the hobby market.

If I'm missing any someone please chime in

[Charis]

Okay, that makes sense. Different strains in different species, right? I just see ads sometimes that list all those albinos together & they weren't clear that it was different species. Probably because most people looking for them would already know what they meant.

[Atlas511]

Thanks Jeff! im learing alot!

[infernalis]

Kudos to Jeff...