Herping in Rattlesnake territory

[GarterGeek]

I have a problem; I know of some very lovely, crumbling rock-walls that I would love to dig into in my search for a milksnake, but I have seen several very large timber rattlesnakes on those same walls... :(

I don't know what to do! The rock walls are on the edge of a field so there is a lot of tall-grass around them, and I am concerned that I may not see the rattlers until too late. I'm also worried about flipping rocks and being within striking range.

I'm prepared with some techniques: I have thick hiking boots, and shin-guards. I walk with a stick ( a shovel handle) which I swing low to the ground in front of me. I also try to use the stick to flip over rocks from a distance, but it it isn't strong enough to flip some of the larger rocks.

What other precautions can I take? What do you do when herping in venomous-snake territory? Is the situation just too risky?:confused:

Thank you!

[Stefan-A]

"Be careful" is probably not very helpful, but that pretty much sums it up. Most snakebites are to the lower legs and to the hands, so watch your step and look twice before picking something up. And take a cell phone with you.

[mustang]

get some of those leg guards hunters wear (they cover legs you can find em at academy
) around here timber rattlers are endangered...personally i wouldnt do it tho

[redspot]

Check out fieldherpforum.com.

I don't know where you live but always be careful when disturbing rocks that herps use. Timber rattlesnakes are VERY selective on where they hibernate, bask, produce young etc, even small changes can alter the lively hood of that locality of snakes.

[bkhuff1s]

If it's to big a rock, I wouldn't flip it, just to be on the safe side. It's true that perfect milk snake could be under it, but so could that rattlesnake that bites you and makes your hand fall off (not exactly sure what their venom does).

[guidofatherof5]

If it's to big a rock, I wouldn't flip it, just to be on the safe side. It's true that perfect milk snake could be under it, but so could that rattlesnake that bites you and makes your hand fall off (not exactly sure what their venom does).

Toxicity(Taken from Wikipedia)
Most species of rattlesnakes have hemotoxic (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hemotoxin) venom, destroying tissue, degenerating organs and causing coagulopathy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coagulopathy) (disrupted blood clotting). Some degree of permanent scarring is very likely in the event of a venomous bite, even with prompt, effective treatment, and a severe envenomation (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Envenomation), combined with delayed or ineffective treatment, can lead to the loss of a limb or death. Thus, a rattlesnake bite is always a potentially fatal injury. Untreated rattlesnake bites, especially from larger species, are very often fatal. However, antivenom (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antivenom), when applied in time, reduces the death rate to less than 4%. It is estimated that between 7,000 and 8,000 people are bitten by venomous snakes in the United States each year, and about five of those die.[3] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rattlesnake#cite_note-2) About 72% of those bitten by rattlesnakes are male.[4] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rattlesnake#cite_note-3)
Some rattlesnakes, especially the tropical species, have neurotoxic (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neurotoxin) venom. A bite from these snakes can interfere with or shut down parts of the nervous system. In the U.S. the Mojave Rattlesnake (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mojave_Rattlesnake) (Crotalus scutulatus) in Arizona (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arizona) and parts of California (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/California) has a neurotoxic venom component known as Mojave Type A toxin. The current antivenom, (FDA (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Food_and_Drug_Administration)-approved in October, 2000) known as CroFab (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CroFab), contains antibodies to Mojave A and B toxins as well as the toxins of most other U.S. pit vipers (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pit_viper). Mojave A toxin has been identified present in the venoms of other species of rattlesnakes on occasion. Neurotoxins cause neurological symptoms, paralysis and could result in death due to respiratory paralysis. In the U.S., Central and South America there are another group of neurotoxic snakes known as the Coral Snakes (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coral_Snake), not related to rattlesnakes but more closely related to the cobra (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cobra) family of Africa and Asia. These snakes can also cause death due to respiratory paralysis if not properly treated.
The Common Kingsnake (Lampropeltis getula (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lampropeltis_getula)), a constrictor (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Constrictor), is famous for being largely immune (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Immune) to the venom of rattlesnakes and other vipers (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Viperidae),[5] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rattlesnake#cite_note-4) and therefore rattlesnakes form part of this snake's natural diet in the wild.

[Mommy2many]

I'd say it's not worth the risk for the milk snake. Just my opinion.:D

[oki-inu]

A good snake hook can help flip rocks and things, keeps your hands out of the danger zone.

[Odie]

personally i wouldnt do it tho
Just find a safer place :eek:

[GarterGeek]

Well, I thought I'd just let everybody know, that I decided not to take the risk. I went to another spot, I didn't see anything, but at least I have all my fingers and toes. :)

Thank you for all the advice! - It played a significant factor in keeping myself (and those whom I herp with) safe.


Questions about herping for milksnakes:
If I'm flipping boards or digging in rock walls, what time of day is the best to search? I've been going in the middle of the day/toward evening, just because that's most convenient for me. From the research I've done, I think I should be going either at dusk or dawn. Does this correlate with your experiences?

[ianrambell]

I hunt in rattle snake territory. I just look where im going. Theres realy not much to do but dont get bit haha. I would say just avoid them. If I see one I always pick it up and move it somewhere else.

[mustang]

I hunt in rattle snake territory. I just look where im going. Theres realy not much to do but dont get bit haha. I would say just avoid them. If I see one I always pick it up and move it somewhere else.
wow where do u look for snakes? where in or around bexar county?

[aSnakeLovinBabe]

All you can really do is... be careful... like Stefan said :o

I have a few rules.... one is that I never go herping by myself (unless it's around where my house is) and I always carry a cell phone on me or make sure whoever I am with (usually eddie) has one. I do this for more reasons than a possible venomous snake bite. Being a woman... it's honestly not a good idea to just go trouncing around any wilderness by myself... because should I happen upon someone with not so good intentions, it would be highly unfortunate. I probably will never go herping by myself unless I carry a pistol.

[mb90078]

One thing I want to do before I die is catch a wild rattlesnake. Hopefully not like 5 hours before I die ;)

[Nir]

I probably will never go herping by myself unless I carry a pistol.

I'm sorry, I just have to say it!

Viva el Canada!! hehe

[oki-inu]

I'm sorry, I just have to say it!

Viva el Canada!! hehe

Is it a bad thing that she is empowered to protect herself from people with bad intentions? Without the pistol she is at the mercy of the criminal, or bear for that matter - doesn't matter where she lives. Better safe than sorry.

[prattypus]

Is it a bad thing that she is empowered to protect herself from people with bad intentions? Without the pistol she is at the mercy of the criminal, or bear for that matter - doesn't matter where she lives. Better safe than sorry.

I think the above comment was made in jest.

[mustang]

All you can really do is... be careful... like Stefan said :o

I have a few rules.... one is that I never go herping by myself (unless it's around where my house is) and I always carry a cell phone on me or make sure whoever I am with (usually eddie) has one. I do this for more reasons than a possible venomous snake bite. Being a woman... it's honestly not a good idea to just go trouncing around any wilderness by myself... because should I happen upon someone with not so good intentions, it would be highly unfortunate. I probably will never go herping by myself unless I carry a pistol.
oooo a girl packn heat:Di love where this is goin:Dlololololol just stay clear of the border lololololololol (seriously stay clear of the border unless you shoot to kill)*no offense should be taken from this*

[bsol]

Everytime I go herping/hiking I bring my 9mm. Every single time. I also like to drag someone with me. I hike on state game lands, not private property, so there's no telling who I may run in to. The Pa Game Commission enforces laws for hunters hunting out of season. The reason these laws exsist... because hunters hunt out of season. I sometimes cross paths with people out in the middle of no where. The bad reality is not everyone has good intentions. I atleast like to level the playing field. Give myself a chance God forbid anything bad goes down...

HOWEVER - a 9mm wont protect your knuckles/hands or calves from a rattlesnake defending itself. Walk carefully. When I flip rocks I like to double check where I place my vulnerable hands.

[mustang]

Everytime I go herping/hiking I bring my 9mm. Every single time. I also like to drag someone with me. I hike on state game lands, not private property, so there's no telling who I may run in to. The Pa Game Commission enforces laws for hunters hunting out of season. The reason these laws exsist... because hunters hunt out of season. I sometimes cross paths with people out in the middle of no where. The bad reality is not everyone has good intentions. I atleast like to level the playing field. Give myself a chance God forbid anything bad goes down...

HOWEVER - a 9mm wont protect your knuckles/hands or calves from a rattlesnake defending itself. Walk carefully. When I flip rocks I like to double check where I place my vulnerable hands.
your wrong theyre not hunters if they hunt out of season ur talking about pochers! we hunters are only concerned about preservation of wildlife...we hunt to fill our quota for herd managment...the #1 eason deer die in texas is by starvation by limiting food due to over population

[redspot]

REALLY, carry a gun while herping? The only thing that will do is get you in more trouble. Way to look the most threatening, that does no good when your deep in the woods maybe on someone else's property trying to talk reason. They see a gun and they get deffensive not to mention they probably have bigger guns and have a reason to use them(trespassing).

PS I'm in no way against firearms, They are the best way to get a meal, or protect your property from trespassers.

[oki-inu]

The gun would generally be carried concealed, accessible if your life is threatened but otherwise unseen.

[redspot]

Is that why they call it a cwp?

[bsol]

your wrong theyre not hunters if they hunt out of season ur talking about pochers! we hunters are only concerned about preservation of wildlife...we hunt to fill our quota for herd managment...the #1 eason deer die in texas is by starvation by limiting food due to over population

Really? I'd say that most hunters hunt game because of the sport. I cant imagine someone spending hundreds on gear just to control the population of an animal. That would be the states job. Search Nutria Rat in Louisiana.

I'm wrong about hunters vs. poachers, I realize a hunter is a hunter until they hunt an animal on personal property or against the laws of the state. Fine, but that's not the point. I mean, whether your hunting in season or poaching out of season you're armed with rifles and other firearms. My simple point was that I never know who I might run in to out in the woods.


REALLY, carry a gun while herping? The only thing that will do is get you in more trouble. Way to look the most threatening, that does no good when your deep in the woods maybe on someone else's property trying to talk reason. They see a gun and they get deffensive not to mention they probably have bigger guns and have a reason to use them(trespassing).

Look, the firearm is concealed(I have my permit to conceal - CWP) and I'm pretty sure I made clear why I carry it. The state of Pennsylvania recognized my permit - enough said. Again, state game lands are public and the borders are usually marked with property lines. Is it possible to wander on private property? Yes. I do my best to stay off someone elses propety.

[mustang]

Really? I'd say that most hunters hunt game because of the sport. I cant imagine someone spending hundreds on gear just to control the population of an animal. That would be the states job. Search Nutria Rat in Louisiana.

I'm wrong about hunters vs. poachers, I realize a hunter is a hunter until they hunt an animal on personal property or against the laws of the state. Fine, but that's not the point. I mean, whether your hunting in season or poaching out of season you're armed with rifles and other firearms. My simple point was that I never know who I might run in to out in the woods.



Look, the firearm is concealed(I have my permit to conceal - CWP) and I'm pretty sure I made clear why I carry it. The state of Pennsylvania recognized my permit - enough said. Again, state game lands are public and the borders are usually marked with property lines. Is it possible to wander on private property? Yes. I do my best to stay off someone elses propety.
yes i know bout the nutria rat but also look up feral hogs theyre multiplying by the thopusands anyone can shoot however many they can on their proporty and theyv made a buisness now of shooting them out of helicopters with fully automatic weapons...me and everyone else i know who hunts , hunts to protect the populations of native species and also it provides a way to get out and forget a lot of hassels.....its just you and the chirping birds...everyone enjoys that fealing...sorry im an avid hunter and i cant help goin on thees rants...

[bsol]

yes i know bout the nutria rat but also look up feral hogs theyre multiplying by the thopusands anyone can shoot however many they can on their proporty and theyv made a buisness now of shooting them out of helicopters with fully automatic weapons...me and everyone else i know who hunts , hunts to protect the populations of native species and also it provides a way to get out and forget a lot of hassels.....its just you and the chirping birds...everyone enjoys that fealing...sorry im an avid hunter and i cant help goin on thees rants...

A - It is against Federal law to posses a full automatic weapon unless you are military. I don't even think state law enforcement is allowed to stock them, but don't quote me.
B - You need to be more polite when comparing me to a chirping bird.

No one said anything until you decided to challenge my post on a clear definition on poaching vs. hunting and then say that you "real hunters" hunt for other reasons besides the challenge of the gane. We were talking about running into random people(hunters/poachers/weirdo's) while hiking and carrying a concealed firearm for protection.
Take a trip back in history and go back over the posts in this thread. It started off about rattlesnakes and then turned in to, what I believe, unnecessary tit for tat. I shouldn't have even replied to your post because of your insult.
I think you should start a new thread about hunters hunting in Texas. This conversation has been completely drawn WAY off the original topic.

[mustang]

A - It is against Federal law to posses a full automatic weapon unless you are military. I don't even think state law enforcement is allowed to stock them, but don't quote me.
B - You need to be more polite when comparing me to a chirping bird.

No one said anything until you decided to challenge my post on a clear definition on poaching vs. hunting and then say that you "real hunters" hunt for other reasons besides the challenge of the gane. We were talking about running into random people(hunters/poachers/weirdo's) while hiking and carrying a concealed firearm for protection.
Take a trip back in history and go back over the posts in this thread. It started off about rattlesnakes and then turned in to, what I believe, unnecessary tit for tat. I shouldn't have even replied to your post because of your insult.
I think you should start a new thread about hunters hunting in Texas. This conversation has been completely drawn WAY off the original topic.
A is wrong...you can own fully automatic weapons without being military....you just need permit and extreamm background check is givin and they search your house every now and then. i didnt mean to be offensive im just stating certain facts i thought you should be aware of... (most of the time we go wway off topic all the time just derailed the thread for a short time thats all not that big of a deal i presume(since it always happens) i try not to but sometimes it happens) and yes i know what the original topic was i was one of the first to comment on it)...but i dont recall comparing you to a bird.

[GarterGeek]

A - It is against Federal law to posses a full automatic weapon unless you are military. I don't even think state law enforcement is allowed to stock them, but don't quote me.
B - You need to be more polite when comparing me to a chirping bird.

No one said anything until you decided to challenge my post on a clear definition on poaching vs. hunting and then say that you "real hunters" hunt for other reasons besides the challenge of the gane. We were talking about running into random people(hunters/poachers/weirdo's) while hiking and carrying a concealed firearm for protection.
Take a trip back in history and go back over the posts in this thread. It started off about rattlesnakes and then turned in to, what I believe, unnecessary tit for tat. I shouldn't have even replied to your post because of your insult.
I think you should start a new thread about hunters hunting in Texas. This conversation has been completely drawn WAY off the original topic.

I think Mustang wasn't referring to you when he mentioned the birds. I think he was simply saying that when someone hunts it is just them and the chirping birds.:)

I don't carry a gun, although I'm not against doing so. I always take pepper-spray with me though.

Anyhow, are copperheads much harder to avoid than rattlesnakes? I heard that they often strike without giving any warning, is this true? I imagine that they must be almost impossible to spot on leafy ground.

What are the chances of getting bit without seeing the snake first?
Has anybody here been bit?

Another danger that people should be aware of while herping is the ability for abandoned buildings to collapse. I often herp near old barns and must use extreme caution.

Getting cut by junk-yard trash can be very nasty too. I have a two-inch scar on my calf I got from moving a pile of concrete in a junkyard. (There were about 10 little garters in there so it was worth it. :D)

[wolfpacksved]

Man. I'd love to see some timbers over a milk any day. I'd have my digital camera and be going ape taking pics. I hunt for milks in timber territory and have only come across one timber to the dozens of milks. Just being aware that timbers are there is usually enough to keep you safe. The majority of people getting bit are the ones who molest the snakes. If you don't want to risk it, i sure will. If there are timbers then there are probably copperheads too. You're lucky. Here's a timber and copperhead I found crossing a road while road hunting for milks.

[GarterGeek]

Man. I'd love to see some timbers over a milk any day. I'd have my digital camera and be going ape taking pics. I hunt for milks in timber territory and have only come across one timber to the dozens of milks. Just being aware that timbers are there is usually enough to keep you safe. The majority of people getting bit are the ones who molest the snakes. If you don't want to risk it, i sure will. If there are timbers then there are probably copperheads too. You're lucky. Here's a timber and copperhead I found crossing a road while road hunting for milks.

Don't misunderstand me, I would love to see more timbers and some copperheads! My concern is that I won't see them and then get bit because of it. :)

That copperhead is gorgeous! I should post some of my timbersnake photos for you to see. I was fortunate enought to see a dark and light phase together on the same rock-wall. :D

Could you give me some tips on finding milksnakes? I see your photos are at night, is that the best time to search? I've done most of my searching at mid-day and dusk, but have come up empty-handed. When you do find the most success?

Where do you find milksnakes? I've searched under tin-sheets by abandoned buildings, rock-walls, and some creek-side areas renowned for their milksnake populations. I've heard they are often found on roadsides, does this correspond with your experiences?

[wolfpacksved]

I find most milks in rolling hill country. Road cruising from dusk to dawn is usually pretty productive. And of course, rocks, tin, trash piles, etc produce a few as well. Happy hunting:)

[Steven@HumboldtHerps]

I'm all for flipping rocks when they are manageable, but digging into rock walls, to me, is excessive. That can't easily be repaired like flipping the rock back to its original position. Sounds like habitat destruction to me!

Shame, shame....

[Spankenstyne]

Yeah I'd definitely suggest not destroying dens. I don't have a problem with someone legally taking a native species from the wild, but digging them up & other habitat destruction ensures that another can't move in to take it's place.

[ConcinusMan]

I think milks sound like they are pretty much like rubber boas around here in that, some people seem to find quite a few easily, others can look for years and never find one, even if they are in the right place! In all the years I've been here, I've only found 3 (boas) and that's when I wasn't looking for them. And yet, I see kids sometimes with hands full of them. Oh, same goes for rosey boas. In San Diego I used to see kids carrying several of them and finding lots of them. I only found one in 4 years.