Thamnophis on speed

[hitsurfer]

My tetrataenia x parietalis female has been searching her cage in a VERY STRANGE way through hours now. She's completely out of control with her movements - not like cramps or anything - just restless and hyperactive. Like she's not able to relax. She's totally overstrung. Like a snake you have caugt in the wild and put in a box - but she has not been handled and there's nothing disturbing around her. It's almost in a state where i fear that she will harm herself by smashing her head against something.

As you problaly know from earlier threads she might be pregnant, but I'm not sure. Don't know if that could have an influenza. Her "thiaminase-fish" has always been heated to 80 degrees.

[guidofatherof5]

Is there a way you can cover her enclosure with a blanket? That may calm her down.
If she was about to give birth that might also explain it but that doesn't sound like that would be it at this point.
It may not be anything but it's worth keeping an eye on.

Have you tried to hold her during this time? I've had restless snakes calm down after they were held for awhile.
Keep us informed on this.

[hitsurfer]

She's on day 86 from first mating observed - but you don't think it could be birthing time? She's not getting much bigger than on the photos I posted last.

I can't handle her - she's extremely aggressive. I tried to change her water dish this morning and she tried to bit me several times. It's only her head movements - the best way I can describe it in english is that it's like she is "headbanging". Moving her head fast in every possible directions. wish I could show you a vid.:-)

[hitsurfer]

I'm studying her close right now - it's like she's throwing her head back very brutal again and again and in rotation. I seriously fear it could be thiaminase deferiency - men then again, I doubt it can arise from hour to hour.

I will try to cover her cage.

[guidofatherof5]

It doesn't sound good if your description is right.
B1 deficiency loads in the body then hits them suddenly. Unfortunately, by the times the symptoms start showing it too late to save the snake. I hope that isn't what it is.
Sounds like a Vet. visit is called for ASAP.

What you're describing sounds like a convulsion of some kind.
Best of luck, your snake is in my prayers.

[hitsurfer]

She's a little more calm now. I have handled her and my girlfriend described her head movements as "wavings" - up, down, up down. I think you're right about the thiaminase:(

I read somewhere that pregnant females would act strange and maybe twitch a lot before birth so I prayed that it was because of her pregnancy:(

Thanks a lot

[guidofatherof5]

Is she still doing a lot of tongue flicking? Is the head waving constant?

[hitsurfer]

Yeah, her tongue is doing very fine... and yes, unfortunately the waving is almost constant while I was handling her. It's ONLY her head and "neck" 5 cm. from her head - up and down, like waves. Very hard to describe.

actually, it seems a little better now while I'm typing this.

[guidofatherof5]

Time will only tell but a Vet. visit sounds like it is order.
Is there anyway you can video tape it. If you don't have a youtube account I would be glad to upload it and post it back to the forum. Just a thought. Let me know.
tradixranch@cox.net

[infernalis]

so not good, I will be reading this for updates... Best wishes and good luck.

[Mommy2many]

Hoping for the best.

[aSnakeLovinBabe]

that does not sound good... parietalis x tetrataenia??? quite a strange hybrid....

[hitsurfer]

This morning she was curled up under the spot. Actually, she was very normal. I don't get it.

Can the deferiency vary in intensity or is it constant when it first occurs?

I handled her again and she felt like there was something inside her. The scales are separated, so "unfortunately" I think she's pregnant.

I called an experienced herper and he said that it could be the pregnancy or the b1 deferiency. But if the last, it would probably be too late to call a vet. And he mentioned that it could hard to find a qualified vet - I agree with that.

I will check up on her when I get home. It's so sad because she's pregnant:(

[hitsurfer]

Oh, and he mentioned that if it is deferiency in first state I maybe could nurse her by immediately switch to mice. She's eating well, but not as much as she used to.

[hitsurfer]

... I recalled one more symptom from yesterday. She opened her mouth - like after a meal for replacing her mouth - and it was like she had "something" in her mouth or throat that she tried to get rid off. But there was nothing. She pulled back head and neck in order to get rid off this "thing" in "wavings". It looked like that.

Unfortunately, I don't have any camera besides on my phone, but I continue to update you if anyone is interested.

[infernalis]

...
Unfortunately, I don't have any camera besides on my phone, but I continue to update you if anyone is interested.


Please do, I am following this with great interest.

[Tyrel26]

its good to keep others updated on our snakes illness/problems. Even if that particular snake can't be helped just making others aware of the warning signs and the progression of the affliction may help snakes in the future.


Remember these guys are tough so don't count her as a loss just yet


Thanks for posting and good luck

[hitsurfer]

It seems that everything is back to normal. She's still very aggressive, but no thrashing around the cage, no wavings, headbangings or other strange movements.

If ANYONE reading this has experienced something like the above I would be so happy to hear about it!!

She's 110 cm., 350 g. and four years old. And I do believe she's pregnant.

[guidofatherof5]

Glad to hear things have settled down. Keep a close eye on her. Do you provide any vitamin suppliments? Here's the one I use. I give it 2-3 time a month.
http://www.google.com/products/catalog?q=rep-cal&rlz=1I7HPIC_en&oe=UTF-8&um=1&ie=UTF-8&cid=3817686425388673074&ei=5goRTMGSNIH7lwee6uzyBw&sa=X&oi=product_catalog_result&ct=result&resnum=3&ved=0CDQQ8wIwAg#

[hitsurfer]

I don't give her any vitamins because I feed her pinkies from time to time. I have a theory that the occasional mice will do it. But now I will consider it! Thanks for the link.

You don't believe it can have anything to do with her pregnancy? Not that I close my eyes for the possibility of b1 deferiency but I really do find it strange when it disappears that fast again:confused:

[guidofatherof5]

I don't give her any vitamins because I feed her pinkies from time to time. I have a theory that the occasional mice will do it. But now I will consider it! Thanks for the link.

You don't believe it can have anything to do with her pregnancy? Not that I close my eyes for the possibility of b1 deferiency but I really do find it strange when it disappears that fast again:confused:

I can't say I've ever seen that type of behavior in a gravid snake.
Could you have a mite problem?
If a snake has them their behavior can look pretty weird as the scratch themselves. Just a suggestion

[hitsurfer]

I can guarantee 100% that I don't have a mite problem. So if it can't have anything to do with her pregnancy I think it's the thiaminase. I will watch her close and switch to mice immediately.

A little picture of my beautiful girl - pray for her:(
http://img684.imageshack.us/img684/7092/dsc00575o.jpg

[guidofatherof5]

I can guarantee 100% that I don't have a mite problem. So if it can't have anything to do with her pregnancy I think it's the thiaminase. I will watch her close and switch to mice immediately.

A little picture of my beautiful girl - pray for her:(
http://img684.imageshack.us/img684/7092/dsc00575o.jpg

She's beautiful. I may have missed it but where would the thiaminase have come from? This may also be another good reason to start a supplement.
Too be honest, I've never had a snake show signs of B1 deficiency and then return to normal. It was always a down hill slide ending in death and it didn't take over 24 hours. The convulsions are horrible to see. They do a death roll with their mouth open. This doesn't sound like the symptoms your snake was experiencing.
If you don't see a return of those symptoms soon I think you can rule out B1 deficiency for now.
I, by no means am a Vet. or expert in what might be happening. I would still recommend a checkup at a reputable Rep. Vet.

[hitsurfer]

I have fed her Smelt (Atherina boyeri) and occasional mice as a supplement.

I'm "glad" to hear about your experiences with the deficiency because she still doesn't show ANY of the symptoms from yesterday. It's quite a mystery.

I have been visiting a friend of mine this evening who's a herper too. He told me that he had experienced vomiting and convulsions with a Heteredon nasicus bemore producing slugs.I can't help thinking that maybe somthing has stuck in her throat.

Hmm... I keep you informed if new things start to happen...

For now, thanks to everyone

[hitsurfer]

Day 89, spending all her time under the spot. Very aggressive.

Tried to feed her today, she won't eat anything at all - not even fish as she used to LOVE.

But the positive thing: She has not showed a single sign of the convulsions.

This snake drives me crazy:D

[Napta]

It's that why we love them... we are crazy :D
Courage !

[hitsurfer]

It's not b1 deficiency.

She can't give birth to her babies and we will try to inject "oil" to help her. Don't know how to explain it in english:D

[guidofatherof5]

It's not b1 deficiency.

She can't give birth to her babies and we will try to inject "oil" to help her. Don't know how to explain it in english:D

Inject oil? I don't know what that is but why do anything.
Is she having complications?

[hitsurfer]

I'm having a hard time explaining this. But the diagnosis is that she is not able to give birth - the babies are stuck in her - and that explains the "rotations". To help her give birth oil for food will be put up in her to help the babies "slip".

Don't know if this gave any sense:confused:

[Mommy2many]

Praying for your girl:(

[ConcinusMan]

hitsurfer has PM'd me several times on the issue. It does sound like the behavior is how a garter acts when it is in severe pain.

[oki-inu]

To help her give birth oil for food will be put up in her to help the babies "slip".

I've heard of that being done for birds.

[ConcinusMan]

When I was raising cockatiels, sometimes the breeder females would get egg bound. Pharmaceutical grade mineral oil injected with an oral syringe "up there" combined with warm moist towel wraps would usually get the eggs to "slip" but these are fertilized eggs which have not yet been incubated.

Seems to me like if that is needed to get a garter to "slip" her babies, then somethings terribly wrong. She just might slip a load of stillborns as long as this has been going on because the eggs have already developed and are(were) ready to "hatch".

[hitsurfer]

I have consulted the vet. and he suggested that we awaited the situation. It's not the b1 deficiency. She has probably trouble slipping her babies and that causes the symptoms. Probably because of severe pain as Concinnusman wrote. The vet. could inject something that would help her let go, but he suggested that we used that as a last option.Have tried a warm bath, massage and oil but nothing has happened yet

And yes, the babies will probably be stillborn if she doens't die as a result of being poisened by the dead bodies inside her.

Right now, no visible symptoms, she's under the spot. Won't eat. Drinks alot.

[mustang]

aww man someone allready said it but i was thinking too many babies or she isnt big enough....when checker eats a whole pinky he realigns his jaw and soes the wave thing to push the food down he angles his head like an strike position sometimes to hold it down better if its live food...just my observations...will post pic of somthing similar

[mustang]

http://i787.photobucket.com/albums/yy158/JJmustang/SSPX0158-1-1-3.jpg
i know its a little grainy but it was off my phone

[hitsurfer]

Yeah, I have thought of that, too. That she tries to push the babies down, if that's what you mean? The last few days I have began to doubt the "pain-theory". After all, it's a reptile, and it doesn't feel pain the way we do.

One of my snake mates mentioned that she may be too fat (in general, not because of the gravidity) to slip the babies. Don't know what to say about that.

She's still not eating:(

[ConcinusMan]

They certainly do feel pain. And if it's intense enough, a reaction can be observed.

[mustang]

go do that oil thing...if you think that she to fat or too young

[hitsurfer]

I have been trying the oil:)

Yes, of course they do feel pain, but I was having a conversation with one of the leading authorities on reptiles in Denmark. I told him that I had a fear that she was in severe pain and that it causes the convulsions. He told me that I should be careful to "humanize" reptiles when it comes to pain. He said that it sounded more like a brain suffering - MAYBE as a result of lack of b vitamins.

Don't know what it is - only time will tell - just collecting opinions and then I try to figure it out.:)

[mustang]

thats good more than one opinion is always needed

[i_heart_sneakie_snakes]

How is she now?? Any update on your girl??

[Selkielass]

I'm eager to hear news too.
I hope she is alright.

[hitsurfer]

I recommend reading my new thread "Sad World"/Breeding.

My girl has died tragically. I cut her up after her death and she had 6 babies inside her. Three is still alive, and one has eaten:-) So good news in bad news.

[ConcinusMan]

They're gonna make it.

[hitsurfer]

Thank you ConcinnusMan.

I continue offering the babies a mixture of dead fish and mice daily. There is too much trouble getting alive guppys every day when they won't eat them. Any good advice on getting them to eat?

[ConcinusMan]

Hard to give advice when I know nothing about how they are kept or how they are behaving. Besides that, I have never kept either species, let alone a hybrid of the two.;)

There's still time. Give 'em a chance.

[hitsurfer]

By english is not very good, so I didn't understand the hybrid thing:)

I keep them separate in small containers with paper substrate, a small hide and a water dish. The plastic containers are placed in a big glass enclosure with light over it and a "room" temperature of 26-27 degrees. No local spot.

I await the two last beginning to eat, they are acting EXACTLY as an adult healthy snake and they're well developed so I think they will make it. They are curious and active and do a lot tongue flicking. No convulsions. I believe that they would have died long time ago if they were too weak to survive.

[ConcinusMan]

By english is not very good, so I didn't understand the hybrid thing:)

tetrataenia x parietalis = Two different subspecies together = Hybrid. Also called a crossbreed.



I keep them separate in small containers with paper substrate, a small hide and a water dish. The plastic containers are placed in a big glass enclosure with light over it and a "room" temperature of 26-27 degrees. No local spot.

I await the two last beginning to eat, they are acting EXACTLY as an adult healthy snake and they're well developed so I think they will make it. They are curious and active and do a lot tongue flicking. No convulsions. I believe that they would have died long time ago if they were too weak to survive.

Believe me, babies that are doing well can suddenly die within the first 6 months for no apparent reason. However, the fact that they survived up until now is a very good sign. They have a very good chance of surviving.

I wouldn't use the plastic enclosures. I would give them room to move around. I would also give them many choices of hiding places. Some dry, some moist. Some warm, some cool. A small area with a hot spot around 30 degrees Celsius all the time is a good idea but they should get darkness for about 8 hours a day. The cold areas should not be less than 23 degrees. Make sure that much of the bottom is dry but the air should be 60-70% humidity.

Try putting all 3 snakes together at feeding time in a small container. Sometimes the snakes that are not eating will get curious when they see another snake eating. Sometimes that makes them start eating too.

[Laura]

"Believe me, babies that are doing well can suddenly die within the first 6 months for no apparent reason."

D: Don't say that!!

[ConcinusMan]

Sorry, it needs to be said. It happens. You can reduce the chances of that happening by feeding them very small, very soft meals, very often, instead of big meals that cause a bulge.

[Laura]

I'd be devestated if that happened to Lola! Should I break down her feeds then?

[ConcinusMan]

Your call, you're the momma. It's just that newborns are small and frail. You gotta go easy on them until their organs and muscles develop a bit. It never hurts even an adult to spread their meals out, feeding them less at a time, but more often. I'll see you guys in about 10 hours. It's my bedtime.;)

[hitsurfer]

I don't know exactly what the mother is. The breeder said: "san francisco (tetrataenia), but not "pure", it's mixed with parietalis".

I think I will listen to you. I will make a big set-up instead of the plastic containers. My theory was (from my experience with other snake babies) that to much space in combination with sharing room with other snakes would stress the babies.

Have a good sleep:-)

[ConcinusMan]

Each snake is different. Even in the wild sometimes the babies stay somewhat together for a while before dispersing. Some snakes are shy eaters and won't eat if there's competition, others see the competition and figure they better get on the ball and compete (eat) too.