Surprise Birth

[ScimitarX]

Firstly, let me explain the situation, because its a bit weird.


This past year I have been living in Germany with my boyfriend, so I left my Garters in the care of my family. My sister went in to clean, feed etc while i was unavailble. In this time I had one tank in which i housed 3 snakes 1 female Infernalis, 1 female eastern black neck and 1 presumed female oregon red spot. They have been housed like this for a good few years with no problems, no mating or anything.


I have now been back in England a month and have been able to see my snake again. Now, the oregon red spotted passed away a few weeks before my return, my sis said it went off it food for no apparent reason and lost weight rather quickly. Note that the other 2 snakes housed in the same tank are fine.

Ok, now onto the title of thread. My infernalis has had babies, 2 very nice live one, 3 stillborn and 3-4 jelly beans. All babies look exactly like her. The only question is, the father. I am presuming the red spotted that died was actually a male and not a female like i thought/was told when i got them. The blackneck is a definite female as i checked today after seeing the babies.

Its just weird how theyd been kept togther for so long and nothing like this has ever happened before.

anyhow enough blabbing. I'll just be happy that ive got 2 gorgeous babies to care for now :D


baby 1

http://www.thamnophis.com/thamphotos/data//500/medium/Photo-0018.jpg



baby 2

http://www.thamnophis.com/thamphotos/data//500/medium/Photo-0021.jpg


stillborns

http://www.thamnophis.com/thamphotos/data//500/medium/Photo-0019.jpg



mother

http://www.thamnophis.com/thamphotos/data//500/medium/IMGP1420.JPG

[bkhuff1s]

Wow what a striking mother. Feel free to send the babies to me :)

[mustang]

wow hybrid? dont hearbout this too much on this site... guess the babies are infernalis and het for red spotted lol...well id love to hear what happens if you ever breed thees offspring with another infernalis and see what pops out!

[BUSHSNAKE]

it would be interesting to see the babies when theyre adults.

[drache]

congrats to the babies, Claire
I'll be curious to see what they grow into, but frankly, some concinnus have a lot of infernalis looks, and it'll be hard to tell anything


well id love to hear what happens if you ever breed thees offspring with another infernalis and see what pops out!
not likely, and I'm too tired right now to explain why I don't think Claire will pursue this

[ConcinusMan]

wow hybrid? dont hearbout this too much on this site... guess the babies are infernalis and het for red spotted lol...well id love to hear what happens if you ever breed thees offspring with another infernalis and see what pops out!

Not a hybrid- an intergrade.

Actually, as you go south through the range of T.s. concinnus, and get close to the range of T.s. infernalis, the snakes in the wild seem to slowly transition from concinnus to infernalis. There's some grey area there where you can't really distinguish them from one another for certain. I guess that's one of the reasons why California decided that infernalis belong in the same group as concinnus, while SF garters are separate. Also, hard-core purist Northwestern herpetoligists say that pure T.s. concinnus is confined to extreme SW washington and NW oregon. Any found outside those areas exhibiting traits of both, must not be "pure" or true to either subspecies. I guess they have to draw a line somewhere.

It really isn't surprising that your infernalis would breed with a concinus. They are both T. sirtalis, and I'm sure they do the same in the wild.

That mother shows signs of what I am talking about. She may not be pure infernalis or pure concinnus. She just might have a little of both in herself.

[drache]

when it happens in captivity, I don't think it's an intergrade, regardless of the possibilities in their range

[ScimitarX]

Thanks for the replies guys,

am thinking of holding onto them for awhile to see how they turn out as they grow, but if someone comes along who just wants one as a pet and not for breeding i'll probably let them have one.


The mother came from Alan Francis, she was one of his spare females that he let me have. But yes when looking at there range I can definitely see how intergrading would be possible.


On a side note, it was baby day yesterday as my cat gave birth to 7 kittens last night. So babies all round lol

[guidofatherof5]

Thanks for the replies guys,

am thinking of holding onto them for awhile to see how they turn out as they grow, but if someone comes along who just wants one as a pet and not for breeding i'll probably let them have one.


That's good to hear.:)

[ConcinusMan]

when it happens in captivity, I don't think it's an intergrade, regardless of the possibilities in their range

Yeah, yeah. Details details. My point is, it's not what I would call a hybrid. (two different thamnophis species crossed)

[BUSHSNAKE]

call it a cross...infernalis x concinnus, that would be politicaly correct, not an intergrade

[ConcinusMan]

Whatever, I'm sick of hearing it. Go ahead and call it a cross. I don't consider it a hybrid. To me a "cross" is just another term for hybrid. It is not a hybrid.

I also keep hearing, "if it happens in captivity it's not an intergrade" Horse pucky. Whether it happens in captivity or not, if it also happens in the wild, it's an intergrade. I sure as heck am not going to call it a hybrid.

T.sirtalis concinnus X T.sirtalis infernalis happens in the wild. T.sirtalis concinnus X T. sirtalis fitchii happens in the wild. T. sirtalis concinnus X T.sirtalis pickeringii happens in the wild. So, being how they are all t.sirtalis, how are they NOT an intergrade whether it happens in the wild, or in captivity?

BTW, did you also notice how they are all the same family and species? NOT a hybrid. T. radix X T.sirtalis (any ssp.), now that is a hybrid.

[drache]

I also keep hearing, "if it happens in captivity it's not an intergrade" Horse pucky. Whether it happens in captivity or not, if it also happens in the wild, it's an intergrade. I sure as heck am not going to call it a hybrid.
just because their range overlaps and intergrades do happen, once a snake is captive one cannot tell what part of their range they came from unless there is documentation which in most cases there isn't
so you really cannot say with any certainty that these animals would have met and mated in the wild - just a technicality
I've noticed that you'd like to stretch that intergrade term to apply even to matings between sirtalis subspecies that could have never met in the wild
methinks you must either love the word, or it's something about not wanting to label something a hybrid when most other people would

[ConcinusMan]

just because their range overlaps and intergrades do happen, once a snake is captive one cannot tell what part of their range they came from unless there is documentation which in most cases there isn't
so you really cannot say with any certainty that these animals would have met and mated in the wild.

Your point escapes me.



I've noticed that you'd like to stretch that intergrade term to apply even to matings between sirtalis subspecies that could have never met in the wild
methinks you must either love the word, or it's something about not wanting to label something a hybrid when most other people would

Didn't mean to give that impression. I know it sounds a bit like a contradiction, but certainly, I wouldn't call a T.sirtalis sirtalis X t.sirtalis concinnus an intergrade. For obvious reasons, that would never happen in the wild.

I have already listed some western sirtalis subspecies that do intergrade in the wild. To say that the same thing happening in captivity is NOT an intergrade seems a bit ridiculous. All these western subspecies of sirtalis share common genes and ancestry from very recent (geologically speaking) times. Like I said before, as you travel from concinnus to infernalis range, or concinnus to fitchii, or concinnus to pickeringii range, the snakes slowly transition from one form to the other.

It's like you an extraterrestrial intelligence right now debating over whether or not a human from India breeding with a human from northern Africa is a hybrid. Of course they aren't.

But when it comes to something like T. radix breeding with T. ordinoides, that would be like homo sapiens breeding with homo erectus. NOT the same thing!

[drache]

perhaps what's bothering me is that I enjoy neat categories, so to me there is always a difference between what may happen in the wild and what happens in the purview of humans
there is generally more space and more choice to an animal in the wild than in a captive setting
some of the definitions I read even go so far as to say that the term intergrade refers to an actual population, rather than isolated cases existing in areas of overlap, and that these populations are distinguishable from both of the parent populations while having characteristics of both
for the purposes of friendly relations though, I'll just accept that your terminology is different

[Napta]

According to the French forum, intergrading is the product of two subspecies, while the hybrid is the product of two different species.

Example:
T. Sirtalis "Titi" X T. Sirtalis "Toto" = intergrade.
Proximus T. X T. Radix = hybrid.

Maybe we do not actually use the same definitions.
It should also differentiate between fertils hybrids or not.

Napta

[MasSalvaje]

It's like you an extraterrestrial intelligence right now debating over whether or not a human from India breeding with a human from northern Africa is a hybrid. Of course they aren't.

That may be the case if humans had sub-species.

The example you gave would be like us debating if an anery concinnus that breeds with a "normal" concinnus would be a hybrid or an integrade.

-Thomas

[Stefan-A]

Go ahead and call it a cross. I don't consider it a hybrid. To me a "cross" is just another term for hybrid.
Well is it a hybrid, or isn't it? It sounds like you're acknowledging that it's a hybrid, but choose to use the word "cross" as a simple euphemism for what you know it really is.


I also keep hearing, "if it happens in captivity it's not an intergrade" Horse pucky. Whether it happens in captivity or not, if it also happens in the wild, it's an intergrade. I sure as heck am not going to call it a hybrid.I can't tell you what you must call it, but I can tell you that it's not a bloody intergrade. We've been through this already, that term has a specific meaning in biology and "cross", or "hybrid" or whatever you want to call a mix of two taxa, does not fit that definition.

[Napta]

I said a bad word to use on my part, for the intergrade it is a mixture of "locality" and not subspecies. And some scientists believe it is not intergrade if these animals could not occur in nature because of natural barriers, even if they are interfertile.

So, I don't know... Geography is not my thing :p

Napta

[ConcinusMan]

Well is it a hybrid, or isn't it? It sounds like you're acknowledging that it's a hybrid, but choose to use the word "cross" as a simple euphemism for what you know it really is.

I can't tell you what you must call it, but I can tell you that it's not a bloody intergrade. We've been through this already, that term has a specific meaning in biology and "cross", or "hybrid" or whatever you want to call a mix of two taxa, does not fit that definition.

Personally, I generally don't use the term "cross" or "crossbreed" but prefer to call the product of two different species a hybrid. But when I see the terms (cross, crossbreed) used, I think "hybrid". Obviously many people disagree with calling the captive offspring of two different sirtalis subspecies an "intergrade". I can accept that but what term does that leave me to use if it is not a hybrid?

On a side note, I do think it's a bad idea to purposely breed even just different subspecies together but it's becoming apparent that the trend is starting to show itself in the garter snake arena. We've already seen several new members this year with snakes that are the result of breeding two different subspecies, or hybrids. I do realize that accidents happen so as responsible keepers we should do what we can to prevent it.

There are people who insist on doing this on purpose. Not much we can do to stop them but we should discourage it by not buying hybrid or intergrade offspring.

[drache]

as far as I can tell "doing it on purpose" has not become a trend yet
and so far I've not encountered much insistence on the practice on this forum
it seems to me that the majority of our members prefer not to muddy the gene pool, and are sufficiently outspoken about their distaste that it ought to give a clear message to newcomers
as to what you call the offspring of two subspecies that don't qualify as intergrades, that's simple. you call them hybrids. crazy, yup, but pretty accurate

[ConcinusMan]

That may be the case if humans had sub-species.

The example you gave would be like us debating if an anery concinnus that breeds with a "normal" concinnus would be a hybrid or an integrade.

-Thomas

Scientist may not have named human subspecies for whatever reason, but the difference between a Chinese person and an African person qualifies. When a species is made up of morphologically distinct, geographically separate groups which are yet not distinct enough to constitute separate species, the term subspecies is employed, correct?

You are right then, the offspring of two subspecies does not qualify as an intergrade. By definition it is a hybrid. I just think there should be a distinction. If I'm calling the offspring of two different species a hybrid, I think I need a different word for snakes that are the offspring of two different subspecies. One scenario is different species, the other are the same species. Big difference.

[Tyrel26]

well there is a word for you to use conman, a few in fact. the following are sometimes used when dealing with hybrids. (yes it is still classed as a hybrid lol)

I believe the first is Intra-specific Hybrid, which is the result of to animals of different subspecies (but same species) breeding.

when it comes to 2 animals of different species (but the same genus) it is known as an Inter-Specific Hybrid.

if it is breeding of 2 animals of different genera the result is Inter-generic Hybrid.

there are a couple other different types of hybrids as well but for our purposes this should do. Im no expert on this but this should at least make this discussion as clear as mud lol

this may not help but I seen it as post worthy lol

[Tyrel26]

Also, when it comes to not naming any group of humans as a subspecies I think the reason may be this.

Subspecies by definition is a subordinate to the species. Now list any race of humans as a subordinate to another and the result would not be pretty. I don't know if this is the reason but it is a good one lol

[ConcinusMan]

I see nothing in any version of the definition of "subspecies" to indicate that it means a subspecies is subordinate to the species as a whole. It is a subunit. Big difference.

[Stefan-A]

I have no idea what you two are referring to by the terms "subordinate" or "subunit". But if we have a look at the situation as it is at this moment, "species" is just a collective name for groups of organisms that share a relatively recent common ancestor.

[ConcinusMan]

But this is coming from a person who questions the validity of species, let alone subspecies. What you're suggesting would make all (30 something) thamnophis the same species. Radix, ordinoides, and sirtalis would be subspecies. That leaves no catagory left to distinguish between infernalis and concinnus, or any other sirtalis.

Now, only one thing left to consider. How the heck are we going to know what snake we are talking about when one person has a T.s. infernalis, the other a T.s. pickeringii? Obviously, they aren't exactly the same morphologically or geographically, so what to do about that?

Personally, I don't think that the TRUE relationships between the different thamnophis snakes will ever be known fully until all have been DNA sampled and the data analyzed. If that was done, it wouldn't surprise me one bit to find out that some sirtalis subspecies are more closely related to non-sirtalis Thamnophis snakes than they are to each other. Afterall, even though it doesn't appear so, chimps are more closely related to humans than they are to orangutans or monkeys. Until the DNA results are in (might never happen) we have Thamnophis (genus) sirtalis (species) and so, we must further categorize by use of subspecies.

Personally, I tend to think that T.s. infernalis and T.s concinnus are the same species. No more different from each other than a black person is from an blond-haired, blue eyed, fair skinned Irishman. Like humans, the differences between the two happen in gradients over distance. I guess that's what makes it so difficult for me to call offspring of the two snakes a hybrid.

[Tyrel26]

Don't kill the messenger!! lol That is simply just one definition. I am not trying to argue, I was just making convo. I did make a bit of a mistake in that definition, it is really a subordinate rank to species; either way I feel people would take this negatively. I do not know the true reason humans aren't classes as subspecies, I was just pondering lol

I am no expert on the matter, I was merely giving a few types of Hybrid. If I am wrong do what my prof would say "40 lashes with the cat of nine tails!!"

Actually if I am wrong please correct me, that is the reason I joined this forum...to learn.

[Stefan-A]

But this is coming from a person who questions the validity of species, let alone subspecies. What you're suggesting would make all (30 something) thamnophis the same species. Radix, ordinoides, and sirtalis would be subspecies. That leaves no catagory left to distinguish between infernalis and concinnus, or any other sirtalis.
Nope, different labels apply. They are all the same genus, Thamnophis. All species belonging to that genus share a slightly less recent common ancestor and that genus shares a slightly more distant ancestor with the rest of Colubridae. And so on and so on. Let's not forget that the linnean system was thought up long before Darwin came along and now people are bending over backwards to apply the system to a situation that's constantly changing, instead of the static one Linnaeus expected. For taking snapshots of the current situation, it's good enough, but a system that describes the actual relationships between units, should be able to go back 4 billion years without problems and work from here "to the end of time", taking into consideration the fact that lines are diverging and will eventually give rise to the equivalent of new subspecies and eventually full species, genera, families, orders etc. Provided they don't become extinct as most, if not all of them actually will.

There are several species concepts. I don't know if this will make it better or worse, but here's a link:
Species - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Species#Definitions_of_species)