Substrate

[lauwersp]

Hey everyone...

Well... after going through the care sheet, I had an idea... *sigh* I THINK it's fine but I want to run it by everyone. I decided to try shredded paper as I happen to create that stuff all the time.

What happens to snakes when they ingest paper? I want to think it should be ok as a lot of the "official" substrate is paper based... but mine, of course, coming out of a shredded has toner or printing press ink on it.

Anyway... I totally redid his home tonight and removed all the dirt and sticks and anything that could have had any parasites it in.

Please chime in on thoughts on the substrate though... I won't sleep well until I think he's safe.

This dude CHOWS down. In the past week he's eaten 13-14 minnows this week. In fact... After I completely redid his tank I put the last 5 minnows I had in the water bowl thinking he was going to want time to adjust to COMPLETELY new surroundings. Nope. Bam Bam Bam Bam Bam... all fishies GONE.

Thanks for the advice everyone!


Peter

[lauwersp]

And he still wants MORE... he's rootin around in his water dish trying to eat more fish (which there aren't any more of). I know someone said they typically won't over eat, but how many SHOULD I be giving him... roughly of course.

[Tyrel26]

i cant say what paper will do but i never feed my snakes in their enclosure. I use a plastic container (tupperware kinda deal only a big one) with nothing in it other than the snake and its food. a cardboard box would also work fine but it will absorb fish and worm slime and therefore smell after a time.
Also try not to overfeed. Its instinct for these guys to "chow down" in the wild cause is harder to find and they use a lot of energy getting it.

[guidofatherof5]

Not sure about possible problems from shredded copier paper.
I have to point out to you about most minnows. They contain thiaminase which will eventually cause neurological issues(B1 deficiency) and kill the snake. Minnows can also carry a parasite load.
Very few minnows are safe for garters.

[ConcinusMan]

thiamanase shmiamanase. Mayonnaise for that matter. Raised garters for years before anyone heard of such a thing. With a varied diet, I saw no sign of disease. In fact, the pair lived exceptionally long lives.

Still, Lauwersp, you should try to get them feeding on frozen/thawed silversides. Most snakes that will eat live fish can be easily converted over to thawed fish. Might also want to try slipping in some pinkies in their fish.

I know some garters aren't very enthusiastic about feeding on dead food. Get a ceramic or non-porous dish and put some fish in it and give them a few hours and some privacy in their enclosure if you're using a safe substrate. Sometimes, the fish disappear when you're not looking. A few hours after "sunup" when the snakes do their basking, get up to temperature, and then.. that's the perfect time to feed or try new foods. Holding back food for a week can also help.

As far as the paper goes, newspaper is relatively safe, including the ink as far as I know. Don't use the glossy ad type paper. You can shred regular newspaper by hand very easily. If swallowed, it doesn't present a problem. It's easily digested.

[infernalis]

What ever happened to pinkies??

My snakes thrive on pinkies, and a few good folks I know stick with pinkies, and the garters do fine.

[guidofatherof5]

thiamanase shmiamanase. Mayonnaise for that matter. Raised garters for years before anyone heard of such a thing. With a varied diet, I saw no sign of disease. In fact, the pair lived exceptionally long lives.

Still, Lauwersp, you should try to get them feeding on frozen/thawed silversides. Most snakes that will eat live fish can be easily converted over to thawed fish. Might also want to try slipping in some pinkies in their fish.


Unless you've seen a snake die from this I'm not sure you will ever take it seriously. Granted, you do tout the benefits of a balanced diet but your first statements trivialize a serious problem that causes the death of many snakes. It is a terrible death and if waving a red flag about minnow/goldfish will help one garter snake from that fate then call me a flag waver.

I'm glad that your snakes lived as long as they did but stop wearing it like a badge. We have all made mistakes and when information comes out about a better way to raise and care for garter snakes we should be on the front lines getting the word out. I too have kept garters for years and for years I too fed minnows. I was not as lucky as you were and I have see what a B1 deficiency can do to a snake. I remember all to well.

[ConcinusMan]

I'm just sayin' No symptoms. And I'm sure the snakes in the wild don't give a dang what kind of fish it is, they're gonna eat it. However, they have a wide variety of foods at their disposal. Feeding a CB garter almost exclusively on thiamanase containing fish is surely asking for trouble.

I've never seen a fish-loving snake that cares what kind of fish it is, dead or alive, so why not just use fish that don't contain thiamanase? Try the silversides is what I recommend.

[lauwersp]

Well... as far as minnows go, they were temporary... I'm switching to frozen fish... As far as pinkies go, I live in rural rural Michigan and I'm not very close to a source for pinkies (that I know of). I'm going to have to have solutions that don't depend on the pet store.

With that in mind, what is the best type of frozen fish to get?

[Mommy2many]

You can get silversides from Petco. They come frozen and garters seem to take to them. You can also alternate feedings with nightcrawlers (Walmart sells them in their fishing dept.) I also use pinkies and fresh salmon from any supermarket's fish dept. (Doesn't have to be the really expensive stuff:D)

In a pinch or with fussy eaters, a few minnows won't harm your snake but this should not be its steady diet. Creating a varied diet helps the snake get the supplements it needs naturally. Calcium is found in the pinks and the whole fish. Worms, I like to say, are like the mac'n cheese for my garters. They really love them but not much to them!

Good luck & welcome!

[Hollis_Steed]

My T.e. vagrans loves a vaired diet of nightcrawlers(form Walmart), silversides (from Petsmart), and cut up fuzzies F/T. I just alternate and snake seems very content.

[guidofatherof5]

My T.e. vagrans loves a vaired diet of nightcrawlers(form Walmart), silversides (from Petsmart), and cut up fuzzies F/T. I just alternate and snake seems very content.

Let's see: We give them fresh water. We cleanup their poop. We give then a warm place to be. We give them a hide or two. Health care, protection and friends to be with.
Yes, content is a good word:D

[Jeff B]

Doesn't matter if you have a close source in rural Michigan for pinkies, you can have a frozen batch delivered to your doorstep, doesn't get any more convenient than that. Only drawback is you have to spend a $150, and one garter snake may not justify that but if you have several then you could be set for quite awhile.

[gartermorphs]

As far as pinkies go, I live in rural rural Michigan and I'm not very close to a source for pinkies (that I know of).
you can order them offline thats were i get mine because i live wayyyyyyy out in the country to.

[guidofatherof5]

As far as pinkies go, I live in rural rural Michigan and I'm not very close to a source for pinkies (that I know of).
you can order them offline thats were i get mine because i live wayyyyyyy out in the country to.


I plan on starting a air drop garter supply business for people just like you when I win the lottery. It might help if I would play the lottery first though.:D

[Tyrel26]

I have a lotto story I have to share lol

a few days ago a guy was buying a few things at the store including a lotto ticket and hen he went to pay he was short on cash so he had to pass on the ticket but the clerk had already printed it and insisted he come back later to pay but the guy said no so the clerk ripped up the ticket and trashed it.......................well this may sound crazy but it true, that ticket was the winning ticket for 25 million!!!!!!!!

Poor guy will be crying for years to come!!



again sorry this is off topic but i thought you may find this interesting or something lol

[gartermorphs]

I think the more varied a garters diet is the better!

[ConcinusMan]

As far as pinkies go, I live in rural rural Michigan and I'm not very close to a source for pinkies (that I know of).
you can order them offline thats were i get mine because i live wayyyyyyy out in the country to.

Seems that most of Michigan is WAAAAyyyy out in the country.

So you go to the nearest source of live adult mice from a pet store when you can.(ready to breed at 3-4 months old) One male, one female, 1 escape proof container and lots of cheap bedding and food. Without getting into mouse husbandry details, a pair of mice can produce 10-12 pinkies every 20 days or so. Two pair of breeding mice can supply perhaps 24 (or more) pinkies every 20 days. You can do that about 3 times in a row per pair, so that's 3X24offspringX2pair = 70 or more pinkies produced in about 2 months. I don't know about you, but that would supply all 10 of my garter snakes for quite some time.


I think the more varied a garters diet is the better!

varied is good. night crawlers and silversides or other safe whole fish, in addition to a pinkie based diet would make any garter thrive.

[Spankenstyne]

I think we often sell the value of earthworms short. They're a much better food source than usually gets passed along as here, and make a great part of a varied diet.

Here's some interesting reading regarding some Venezuelan Indian tribes that use them as a food source: http://rspb.royalsocietypublishing.org/content/270/1512/249.full.pdf

[Spankenstyne]

As for frozen fish, I'm so paranoid about thiaminase I stick to trout or salmon fillets and just cut them into worm sized strips and freeze them skin on & all. Then I'll just defrost enough for the feeding and cut into bite sized pieces to avoid food battles, and sprinkle a little multivitamin with B1 on them. I had been using the gelatin suspensions but found that I didn't need to, mine all will eat the fish with vitamins sprinkled on so it saves me from having to make the stuff.

The problems I run into with silversides is the confusion on proper ID. There are fish they commonly call silversides which are actually smelt & also silversides that aren't smelt. Pond smelt are fine but other smelt aren't... So to be safe I've avoided them so far. One of the grocers here gets in nice big cheap bags of whole small silversides & smelt (with no species labeled) but without knowing exactly what species they are I don't want to risk it. There's too much overlap with the common names

[ConcinusMan]

As for frozen fish, I'm so paranoid about thiaminase I stick to trout or salmon fillets and just cut them into worm sized strips and freeze them skin on & all. Then I'll just defrost enough for the feeding and cut into bite sized pieces to avoid food battles, and sprinkle a little multivitamin with B1 on them. I had been using the gelatin suspensions but found that I didn't need to, mine all will eat the fish with vitamins sprinkled on so it saves me from having to make the stuff.

The problems I run into with silversides is the confusion on proper ID. There are fish they commonly call silversides which are actually smelt & also silversides that aren't smelt. Pond smelt are fine but other smelt aren't... So to be safe I've avoided them so far. One of the grocers here gets in nice big cheap bags of whole small silversides & smelt (with no species labeled) but without knowing exactly what species they are I don't want to risk it. There's too much overlap with the common names


I know the substrate thread turned into yet another feeding discussion, but I guess that's how conversations go.

There's really no need to get paranoid over thiaminase containing fish. You simply want to avoid them, steer clear, if you will. A snake, that gets a varied diet of foods containing plenty of B1 and calcium is not likely to suffer from the dreaded disease if it gets a gut full of thiamnase-laden fish now and then. It was whole frogs, night crawlers, tadpoles, (all found plentiful in the habitat where I got my concinnus) and yes, even red snapper and goldfish when I didn't know any better. The snakes also got a powdered vitamin supplement containing plenty of thiamine about once a month.

They lived 20 years and reached about 3-3.4 feet. Never saw any symptoms. Unless you're feeding them almost exlusively on strips of fish meat and worms, you really don't need to go all out on the vitamins. Overdosing can do much harm.

If your snake eats pinkes, and you have a good source, then there's really no need to supplement their lighter meals of fish and worms at all.

I wouldn't be paranoid about an occasional "bad" fish in their diet but I would certainly avoid it if possible.

[Spankenstyne]

I'm a big believer in less is more when it comes to supplementing, not going all-out at all.

As for the thiaminase laden fish it's more to do with wanting a good source of smaller whole fish to use & rotate in as one of my fish staples for the fish portions, which is why I avoid the unknown ones. I was mainly pointing out that it's unfortunate that "silversides" can refer to both safe and unsafe fish that share the same common name at times.

As for rodents I infrequently offer my garters rodents. Maybe once a month. I know that some feed them exclusively, but my personal belief is that too much rodent in their diet isn't healthy for most garter species.

[Spankenstyne]

As for the original topic on substrate, I use aspen chip. I feed all mine in their enclosures & never have had any issues. They're smart enough for the most part to not eat the chips, if they happen to swallow the odd one it's not a problem. I find they just push out any that get near or in the mouth.
I've kept hundreds of snakes of dozens of species over more than 20 years on shaving & chip type substrates (some soils too) and have never had a case of impaction. I find if they're healthy, well hydrated and have access to a temp gradient you shoudn't see any problems with a bit of substrate getting on the food, it tends to be an overstated concern.

I guess it's not much different than my worries about giving my snakes thiaminase laden fish though haha..

http://i274.photobucket.com/albums/jj267/spankenstyne/Sand%20Boas/ksbmar11a.jpg

[Nafun]

My ball is on astroturf, he eats inside. My other snakes all have their own feeding tubs, because they're on aspen.

My wife and I tried to breed mice for snake food and found it very, very hard. Most mice you find in pet stores are so inbred they're sterile. We managed to produce 1 litter out of 5 females and one male. She killed and ate all of them even though she was on a high protein pregnancy food blend.

Now we breed gerbils and rats for snake food. Gerbil's are much, much easier to breed than mice, and their pinks aren't much bigger. Only problem with gerbils is you can't just have 1 male and 89123123 females. They're not harem breeders, you need a male/female bonded pairs to keep em happy.

We just started a guppy/platy breeding tank to feed our new turtles, and to feed the garters we're getting this summer. They were recommended as being low in thiaminase. (Until they get big enough to start taking bluegill.)

We started raising our own rodents for feeders because it's 30 minutes to the nearest pet store, and they only have pinkie mice, and adult mice when they have anything at all. Ordering rats online at $150/pop was a hassle, and expensive. It's also nice to be able to harvest a rodent that's the exact right size for your snake, and present it freshly killed.

Granted, raising 4 different kinds of prey animals is kind of a hassle as well, but care for them just gets added to the reptile room upkeep routine.

I brought up the possibility of starting a cockroach colony yesterday and got a wifely veto.

[ConcinusMan]

I have emailed the companies of the two brands I find at petco.

Ocean Nutrition and San Fransisco brand "Sally's Silversides" to find out the latin name of the fish they both sell. I keep hearing things like "Only pond smelt are safe" well, pond smelt are from the arctic. These fish they sell as silversides at petco are smelt. Plain and simple. Just like the ones that can be netted on the west coast U.S.A.. Now the debate is, do they contain thiaminase or not? Just like the goldfish I fed my garters for years with no issues, other people have been using these silversides or smelt, or whatever you want to call them, for years and have had no problems.

I hope they respond with an answer soon.

[ConcinusMan]

I feed all mine in their enclosures & never have had any issues. They're smart enough for the most part to not eat the chips I've kept hundreds of snakes of dozens of species over more than 20 years on shaving & chip type substrates (some soils too) and have never had a case of impaction. I find if they're healthy, well hydrated and have access to a temp gradient you shoudn't see any problems with a bit of substrate getting on the food, it tends to be an overstated concern

The threat is real. It is not an overstated concern. Feeding garters sticky food in their enclosure is ill advised. Some substrates such as coconut fiber aren't really a problem but I would still prefer to avoid letting them swallow it. But if they were to swallow something like a fir bark chip, or a dreaded corncob fragment, it wouldn't be good.

I too would not be concerned with feeding a whole adult rodent to a mostly rodent eating snake on top of aspen shavings. A little of that is not going to hurt a snake like that.

[infernalis]

I have lost too many snakes to swallowed substrate, I feel much better feeding them outside the cage.