mixed breeds????

[vwsrcool]

ok this question might be dumb, can different breeds of garters i.e. checkered, eastern, ect. breed with each other?

[Thamnophis]

I know someone who, accidentally, bred hybrids (T.s. parietalis X T. radix).
And I suspect that this is possible for more species.
I would not recommand it, though.

[Hilde]

And I am that "someone" ;)

I had a T.s. parietalis male and a T. radix female. I didn't know it was possible, but when I can home some day I found this (sorry for the bad quality):

http://img143.imageshack.us/img143/354/terraria046vl8.jpg

http://img176.imageshack.us/img176/3990/terraria049jk0.jpg

And de baby's
http://img143.imageshack.us/img143/6545/nakweek016lo1.jpg

[CrazyHedgehog]

I know someone who, accidentally, bred hybrids (T.s. parietalis X T. radix).
And I suspect that this is possible for more species.
I would not recommand it, though.

Can I ask why? In the wild if they are in proximity would they not breed?
What are the problems or reasons against?

[Hilde]

There was a high discussion that time about my baby's because they where note pure animals but hybrids. I was very sad about that because I loved these baby's just as much as they were 100 % pure.
But I get the point of most people. I don't know how it is outside the Netherlands, but here in Holland, you never know what you buy. There are many hybrids in every spices.

4 years ago I didn's know that 2 spices can get together, but when the baby's were born, I was happy, no matter how they looked or how they are. They were beautiful and I was proud of them.
Otherside I will never mix again. Why shoot you mix without any reason? There are so many morphs in de wold. Let's keep this snake outside that world.

My English is bad, I know, I hope you can read it :o

[Thamnophis]

Can I ask why? In the wild if they are in proximity would they not breed?
What are the problems or reasons against?

I will try to explain.
The biggest part of the problem is that the young will look like one of the parents. For example, like t. s. parietalis. But eventhough they look like them, they also have the genes of radix.
So you cannot tell them apart from "pure" T.s. parietalis.
And maybe it is better to keep species and/or subspecies as pure as possible.

I do not mean that these hybrids are no good snakes or so. Nothing wrong with them. But it is impossible to keep track of them.


Understand me well. I bred hybrids once and those snakes are fantastic.
I have given them to a brother of me who keeps them now.
Those hybrids were:
Their father is a Pantherophis g. guttatus (wildcolor)(female) X Lampropeltis getula niger (wildcolor) (male).
Their mother is a Creamsicle F2 (female) X [Creamsicle F2 X Pantherophis g. guttatus Amel]
The young snakes do not look like their parents and every ratsnakekeeper will see that they are hybrids.
When I bred them I knew that they would not be sold to strangers.

The young look like this...

http://static.flickr.com/32/49732362_7075a169c4_o.jpg

[ClosedCasket88]

my unkle actualy one some checkered gartes and bred them evryyear till he had a tank filled with dozens of garter snakwes after a few years . he eventualy let them go at our campground in maryland . since then well iften catch a checkered garter or a mix it would seem like down there from time to time . some of the easterns around here look somewhat like checkers but there definately distinguishable . so i know its definately possible. Most the ones i caught that definately looked like they had checker in em too and they appeared to be pretty nice , just about evry eastern i caught dwon ther b4 this mix breeding went on were always of a reddish or orangish hue .
ill stil never know whut ones were a mix n wich ones werent but it thought it was interesting and dont think it would mess up the balance to much considering they both look alike

[Cazador]

Many times when two different species interbreed, their offspring are inviable. They normally die before delivery (if the female is even able to conceive), but sometimes the offspring are born. Sometimes they have genetic abnormalities that lead to an early death, but more often the offspring are simply infertile. The reason is because many times different species either have a different number of chromosomes, or there are enough different genes that their chromosomes don't merge properly after the sperm fertilizes the egg. In the wild, hybrids are often ill adapted for the lifestyle of either parent and are less competitive (fit) than pure bred individuals. Yet for snakes, I think the viability of hybrid offspring would vary from cross to cross. For example, if a species adapted for warmer, more humid areas, would hybridize with a species from a mountainous or more arid area, then the offspring wouldn't be well suited for either environment. Sometimes weird things happen in captivity that wouldn't happen in nature, though hybrids do sometimes occur.

[GarterGuy]

I have to agree with Rick (Cazador), I don't think it's best to be crossing "known" species in captivity. As caretakers of these animals, I think it's best to keep things as natural as possible. I mean you could cross a Cali.Redsided (T.s.infernalis) with an Eastern (T.s.sirtalis), I mean they're just both subspecies, but WHY????? Isn't it best to just enjoy them as nature created them? I fear the day when snakes become like other domesticated animals and become poorly adapted animals that we've just created for our own amusement. I know that species are just a way for us humans to put stuff in nice little groups that we can catagorize and that often what's a species today may become just a subspecies or regional variant in the future. Also many species are created just from geological isolation and may acutally have a common ancestor and can be crossed successfully, but is it right to do so? Just because you can, doesn't mean you should. Well that's my two cents on it....spend it well.;)

[Stefan-A]

This will sooo easily turn into another pro/con hybrid war. I agree, it's not the best idea to cross species and subspecies, but it's not that big an issue. These are pets and nobody intends to release them, or at least I hope that's the case.

But under my circumstances I could even call it a non-issue. Both of mine are from stores and both were imported. Basically, it's impossible to trace their lineage and for all I know, they are both "mongrels". They might look like a certain species or subspecies, but I'd be taking a risk even calling them T. sirtalis.

I don't disagree with GarterGuy's "Just because you can, doesn't mean you should.", but then again, just because somebody else wouldn't, doesn't mean you shouldn't. It's something everybody need to decide for themselves. I'd prefer pure snakes, but you don't always have a choice. That's unless one of you down there on the continent is prepared to ship pure T. marcianus or T. atratus to Finland, of course. ;)

[ssssnakeluvr]

I prefer pure snakes too.....it's a big argument and I'm not gonna jump into either...There are some cool looking hybrids out there tho.

[Thamnophis]

Everybody can do what he/she wants as long as the concerning animals are not hurt or so.
When you make hybrids, you have to be honest about it to the people who buy your young snakes. And they must be not released in the wild!

[Stefan-A]

Well said, Thamnophis.

[ClosedCasket88]

well. my wild caught eastern. looks exactly like a checkered. no difference at al realy .

[Cazador]

Easterns with checkering are common.

[abcat1993]

Yeah, my snake is getting a checkered pattern