T. s. tetrataenia or T. s. infernalis???

[reptileparadise]

I would like to know what you guys think.

This animals was born here from two very nice parents. Both parents look like pure T. s. infernalis.
All littermates where normal infernalis. Nearly all have a perfect pattern, one or two have a somewhat distorted pattern and one looks like this.

I'm wondering what your experience is when it comes to variations in pattern within a litter of infernalis.

All input is appreciated!
Sadly, I can't contact the previous owners of my infernalis anymore. I know very litte about their lineage except that they are nice, blotched, specimens...
First picture is the animal (in shed) I'm "worried" about. The second is a typical clutchmate (recently shed).

http://i155.photobucket.com/albums/s285/reptile-paradise/Kousebanden/infernalis-of-tetrateania.jpg
http://i155.photobucket.com/albums/s285/reptile-paradise/Kousebanden/light-infernalis-female.jpg

[Stefan-A]

That's an interesting problem indeed. I suppose it's not impossible for that level of variation to occur. Even my first vagrans litter had some pretty interesting variations in pattern and coloration.

Is it possible that there actually is a tetrataenia in the family?

[reptileparadise]

I have 0 san frans in my collection at the moment....
Or at least, untill this was born....

[Stefan-A]

I have 0 san frans in my collection at the moment....
Or at least, untill this was born....
I meant "family" as in including its ancestors. Grandparents etc.

[reptileparadise]

Aaaaahhhh, I knew that!

Well, thats what I was thinking. Maybe the parents are outcrossed hybrids. Something I really, really, really, really don't like!
So I'm hoping that this is a somewhat common variation in pattern and that I won't have to euthanise the whole bunch...

[Spankenstyne]

Just looks like some pattern variation or aberrancy to me. I don't have any of either but some folks I know that have infernalis seem to get the same variation sometimes as well for what it's worth.

[infernalis]

I have heard from more than one source that Infernalis & tetrataenia have been crossed in Europe to try and strengthen the gene pool due to the heavy unavoidable inbreeding.

So it is possible that somewhere down the line some San Fran genes were infused in the lineage.

[bkhuff1s]

euthanize... really?! i think that's a little extreme

[Hollis_Steed]

euthanize! Are you kidding me? There are plenty of people out there (like me) who are not interested in breeding and just enjoy the snake for the snake. Before you decide to euthanize I will gladly pay shipping to give one a good home!

[Stefan-A]

I have heard from more than one source that Infernalis & tetrataenia have been crossed in Europe to try and strengthen the gene pool due to the heavy unavoidable inbreeding.
The question is, what source have they used?

[Stefan-A]

euthanize! Are you kidding me? There are plenty of people out there (like me) who are not interested in breeding and just enjoy the snake for the snake. Before you decide to euthanize I will gladly pay shipping to give one a good home!
There will always be accidental litters, though. One day it's just one hybrid, the next it's 30, just because somebody, possibly with no interest in breeding, decided to put two snakes in the same container for some perfectly valid reason. It saves a lot of trouble to just euthanize them IF they actually are hybrids.

[prattypus]

They wouldn't be hybrids though, would they? Wouldn't they be classed as intergrades? This happened in captivity, but don't the CA RED SIDE and SAN FRAN ranges overlap in nature- or did so in the past?

[bkhuff1s]

Hybrids, who care's! The moment we took them out of nature, that ended, they're pets now, regardless of where the ancestors lived

[bkhuff1s]

Genetic drift occurs in nature, so keeping 'pure' breeds in captivity in the long-run is laughable

[Stefan-A]

They wouldn't be hybrids though, would they? Wouldn't they be classed as intergrades?
The term intergrade has certain ecological and evolutionary connotations. Basically, anything produced as a result of human activity, whether that occurs in the wild through introduction, or in captivity through crossing, would be a hybrid.

[Stefan-A]

Hybrids, who care's! The moment we took them out of nature, that ended, they're pets now, regardless of where the ancestors lived
What ended?


Genetic drift occurs in nature, so keeping 'pure' breeds in captivity in the long-run is laughable
What they won't do, is turn into hybrids or jump from one limb of the phylogenetic tree to another.

[count dewclaw]

I have always wondered if T. s. tetrataenia was a pattern morph of T. s. infernalis that was local to the San Francisco area....Does anyone know what information was used to classify them as a sub-species separately from T. s. infernalis?

[aSnakeLovinBabe]

I have always wondered if T. s. tetrataenia was a pattern morph of T. s. infernalis that was local to the San Francisco area....Does anyone know what information was used to classify them as a sub-species separately from T. s. infernalis?


yea.... this is exactly what I was gonna say.... is there anything that separates them, apart from pattern? I know that because they are their own population they are genetically separate, but could they have actually been a striped mutation of infernalis that just happened to sominate that area? I have a plains garter that is striped and smeared like that first infernalis pictured, a really unique snake... she is a sibling to Scott Felzer's "aztec" there were only 2 born in that clutch, to a wild mother....

when you compare strictly visuals, my striped plains is to plains garters, what San-Frans are to infernalis!

[charles parenteau]

It's very very interresting!!!

[Stefan-A]

yea.... this is exactly what I was gonna say.... is there anything that separates them, apart from pattern? I know that because they are their own population they are genetically separate, but could they have actually been a striped mutation of infernalis that just happened to sominate that area? I have a plains garter that is striped and smeared like that first infernalis pictured, a really unique snake... she is a sibling to Scott Felzer's "aztec" there were only 2 born in that clutch, to a wild mother....

when you compare strictly visuals, my striped plains is to plains garters, what San-Frans are to infernalis!

Molecular phylogeography of common garter snakes (Thamnophis sirtalis) in western North America: implications for regional historical forces


Our molecular analyses suggest that T. s. tetrataenia (San Mateo Co.) is not genetically unique from other California populations. However, geographically nearby populations (Sonoma Co., Santa Cruz Co., and Contra Costa Co.) belong to a strongly supported clade that does not include San Mateo Co.So basically, it's yes and no. They are not very different overall from other T. sirtalis in the area, but whatever they're surrounded by, they're not closely related.

[aSnakeLovinBabe]

I think that the fact that you had an entire littler of perfectly normal infernalis and then this one is really weird. Because if there was some muddling of genetics going on.... shouldn't we see varying degrees of it elsewhere? Like, in the other babies, and the parents? I mean exceptions happen I guess, but I just don't see one rogue baby as reason to condemn an entire line of healthy snakes. I mean, the whole coloration and everything of that one is just weird. It's like a totally different snake. There are outside factors that can alter how color and pattern is laid out while the baby snake is growing inside of the egg. Eve though mother snake incubates these eggs internally, things could still mess up. Sometimes, one gets messed up but it actually has nothing to do with the snake's lineage and is not genetically inheritable (like ringer and shatter pattern ball pythons) it could be faulty genes (like a birth defect), or many other things. I would be interested to see if it ends up being a failure to thrive. Often, when you get a real weirdo in a clutch something it's a weakling and doesn't make it.... and I'm not just talking garter snakes here either.

[prattypus]

The term intergrade has certain ecological and evolutionary connotations. Basically, anything produced as a result of human activity, whether that occurs in the wild through introduction, or in captivity through crossing, would be a hybrid.

Ahh, I get it now. I thought a hybrid was different species- and may be sterile; and an intergrade was of sub-species and would have fertile offspring. Didn't take the human factor into account.

[bkhuff1s]

All I'm saying is that if we are keeping and breeding these animals, because we enjoy them, then it shouldn't really matter, if they are hybrids. If the breeder is looking to produce a specific locality, that's cool. That's what I'm doing. However, because some offspring don't represent what we, as a breeder, are looking for, destroying them, well it just isn't right. Find different home's for the snakes. They're pets, if need be, find a home with no intention of breeding.

If they are hybrids, then destroying them isn't going to do anything. It would be like throwing a grain of sand at a tidal wave, because if this proves your hypothesis, then the hybrid is already in the general population, especially since it's a limited population. Destroying them will contribute little to nothing. You'd have to control the entirety of the San Fran line in Europe, to prevent the hybridization.

If you really feel you can't live with these animals, then the other member who spoke up would, I'm sure, happily take the group off of your hands. I know I would be. They are gorgeous.

[aSnakeLovinBabe]

If you really feel you can't live with these animals, then the other member who spoke up would, I'm sure, happily take the group off of your hands. I know I would be. They are gorgeous.

an ocean separates them... :(

[prattypus]

Shannon- if your activity on here is any indication- you're feeling better? I hope so!

[aSnakeLovinBabe]

Shannon- if your activity on here is any indication- you're feeling better? I hope so!


well, I am feeling better in the sense that, I no longer feel any symptoms other than the coughing and the respiratory stuff. I don't actually feel sick anymore... but I know I still am! so I'm laying in bed on my laptop :)

[reptileparadise]

Wow, thanks for all the input guys!

I'm awaiting more reactions to see what others have to say about pattern variations.
I'll be talking to a few infernalis breeders this weekend to hear what they have to say.

Offcourse, these animals wont be euthanised, but if they appear to be actual hybrids. None will be sold and all will be kept back. The parents will be kept seperated as well then. Yes, I'm a purist!

@Shannon;
this animal certainly stands out! Way darker then the rest (allready was at birth) and with a somewhat weird head pattern.
Its eating, just like 10 of its littermates. Only one, extremely small animal seems to hate food...
For those interested, I'll happily update this topic every now and then. I might need to be remembered though...

[ConcinusMan]

Ahh, I get it now. I thought a hybrid was different species- and may be sterile; and an intergrade was of sub-species and would have fertile offspring. Didn't take the human factor into account.

I have to admit I never thought of it the way stefan puts it. I always thought of hybrids (and F.Y.I., hybrid snakes are usually fertile, they aren't mules, you know) as crossing different thamnophis species. Intergrades are same species, different subspecies. I don't care if the subspecies breeding is ONLY a result of human interference that never occurs in nature. I will still call it an intergrade.

Obviously, a T.s concinnus would never breed with a flame eastern (t.s sirtalis) in nature, but if it happened in captivity, I still wouldn't call that a hybrid. Hey! who's up for trying that?

That's what I thought. Not too many people.

[Stefan-A]

I have to admit I never thought of it the way stefan puts it. I always thought of hybrids (and F.Y.I., hybrid snakes are usually fertile, they aren't mules, you know) as crossing different thamnophis species. Intergrades are same species, different subspecies. I don't care if the subspecies breeding is ONLY a result of human interference that never occurs in nature. I will still call it an intergrade.
Why insist on using that term intentionally incorrectly?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intergradation

[prattypus]

I have to admit I never thought of it the way stefan puts it. I always thought of hybrids (and F.Y.I., hybrid snakes are usually fertile, they aren't mules, you know) as crossing different thamnophis species. Intergrades are same species, different subspecies. I don't care if the subspecies breeding is ONLY a result of human interference that never occurs in nature. I will still call it an intergrade.

Obviously, a T.s concinnus would never breed with a flame eastern (t.s sirtalis) in nature, but if it happened in captivity, I still wouldn't call that a hybrid. Hey! who's up for trying that?

That's what I thought. Not too many people.

Wait- garter snakes aren't mammals? I know you mean well, but sometimes you come off quite arrogant. And are mules the only hybrids that are sterile? I thought Ligers were too?

[Stefan-A]

Wait- garter snakes aren't mammals? I know you mean well, but sometimes you come off quite arrogant. And are mules the only hybrids that are sterile? I thought Ligers were too?
The fertility of hybrids span the whole spectrum, from zero to greater than either of the parent species. It's true, though, that snakes often do produce fertile offspring, even when you cross genera.

[prattypus]

See, I learn so much on here.

[aSnakeLovinBabe]

Obviously, a T.s concinnus would never breed with a flame eastern (t.s sirtalis) in nature, but if it happened in captivity, I still wouldn't call that a hybrid. Hey! who's up for trying that?


anybody who would be up for trying that, would be a novice or inexperienced keeper that's not a true garter snake hobbyist and has no idea that they even have two totally different animals. Trust me, there are plenty of people out there right now who, if they had both of those animals, they would try it. I actually read on some guys website a while ago that he was attempting to breed albino checkered garters to blue pugets. Some others here may remember that. And those aren't even the same species!!! Believe me... vending at shows with my animals, I have seen it all! A lot of people, even in our own hobby, seem to think that garter snakes are all the same exact snake. They get all bent out of shape over a cornsnake that may possibly have emory rat in it (creamsicle and rootbeer corns are not actually corns and have tainted many cornsnake lines) but they come up to my table and suggest I cross my infernalis with with my eastern blackneck "to see if you get any new morphs"... were the exact words. I'm like hey people, these are not morphs these are naturally occuring species!

and I for one, would still call that a hybrid. Because it was intentional... and in captivity. intergradation is defined is it occuring between two populations in nature. I would be tempted to step on it's head, but I could never kill a snake that was not gravely ill or wounded.... so I would probably buy the thing and wall it off in it's own container so that it could live it's life, but never breed.

[ConcinusMan]

Whoa, take it easy shannon. I was only kidding. That would be ludicrous.

[aSnakeLovinBabe]

Whoa, take it easy shannon. I was only kidding. That would be ludicrous.
I know you were kidding... but others may not have.

[ConcinusMan]

I know it's an old thread but I've seen pictures of wild infernalis' having that pattern, although it usually isn't the entire body. More like the last 1/3 usually. I tend to think that this baby of yours is just aberrant. Remember the "aztec" radixes? Very similar aberrancy.

Any updates? Is this snake still around?

[reptileparadise]

Thanks for asking!

The snake is still around... in Hungary...
good chance the animals was just a normal abberant indeed (if one call call it that :) ).
We sold this animal to someone who we knew is good for his word and will not breed it.

May not sound very logical, but its a way / our way of making sure the stripey ones don't get mixed up with tetra's...!

[Light of Dae]

Any chance they could send you a picture? Would really like to see how it turned out.

[ConcinusMan]

I think it should probably look the same, only bigger.

[reptileparadise]

Indeed.... Very little pattern changes in these guys when they grow...