awwww crap...

[ssssnakeluvr]

My golden x anery girl popped this morning....3 slugs, 21 sitllborns, and 5 live, but one (an anery) died. I am keeping the one anery male....one female looks a little green...no red... hopefully she will stay that way! on a lighter note....I acquired another hypermel wandering.... a female!!!! might be gravid too!!!

[guidofatherof5]

Sorry to hear about your lose. I hope the survivers do well.

[MasSalvaje]

That bites Don!

I was looking forward to breaking into parietalis. Best of luck with the new vagrans!

-Thomas

[ssssnakeluvr]

a good third of the stillborns were anery too.... :( dang it!!! got some more valleys today too!!

[gregmonsta]

Ouch ... feel for you mate.

[Stefan-A]

Sorry to hear that.

[Mommy2many]

Sorry to hear about the losses but hope for the survivors!

[mustang]

thers always next time...you have my sympathy

[drache]

wow - that's not a good live-to-dead ratio
sorry for your losses Don

[Snaky]

Sorry to hear about the stillborns:(

[ConcinusMan]

I just don't get it. What's with all the slugs and stillborns I keep hearing about. I've never experienced litters like that from any of my snakes over many years.

The worst thing I've seen is a very old female give birth to all stillborns and then she died. For the most part, if there's any live ones, they are mostly all alive and I've never seen a snake "slug out".

[BUSHSNAKE]

now your gonna get all slugs just for saying that

[ConcinusMan]

Oh shuddup!:eek:

;)

I don't think so. Slugs don't grow. There's definitely weight and girth gain going on.:D

[ssssnakeluvr]

I had a big fat one last year that threw 25 slugs..... hopefully you don't have them!

[BUSHSNAKE]

wow Richard you must be the only one i know who always has perfect results...good for you, you the man, your the king, your gonna take over and show all of us how its done, boy i cant wait to learn from the best, you the man Richard! YOUR THE MAN!

[ConcinusMan]

Perfect results. Yeah right. I detect a hint of sarcasm. I'm just sayin'...

Never had slugs yet. Now I probably will dangit.

Then again, I haven't bred morphs produced by years of captive breeding either. Might be different in that case.

[Jeff B]

having perfect results with gravid wild caughts compared to several generations of captive breeding, is like driving a toyota prius vs driving a corvette and proclaiming you've never had a speeding ticket.

[BUSHSNAKE]

thats a good way to put it Jeff

[ConcinusMan]

having perfect results with gravid wild caughts compared to several generations of captive breeding, is like driving a toyota prius vs driving a corvette and proclaiming you've never had a speeding ticket.

Hey now, you assume too much. Besides that, if your corvette was so great, nobody would be able to catch you to give you that ticket in the first place.:p Point taken though.

All I'm saying is, if breeders continue to hold back offspring based soly on their genetic traits and/or looks, and ignore fertility, the problem is only going to get worse.

[ssssnakeluvr]

[QUOTE=ConcinnusMan;131424] Besides that, if your corvette was so great, nobody would be able to catch you to give you that ticket in the first place.
QUOTE]
My dad knew a guy with a vette that got chased by a police crown vic....couldn't lose him. :cool: you may outrun their cars, but it's hard to outrun their radios :eek:

[BUSHSNAKE]

hey Richard if you are aware of Phil Blais's article on flame garters back in '98 in Vivarium magazine you would of read that infertility rates of captive garters are often lower than that of wild garters for reasons unknown. Nobody could tell you for sure if it has to due with diet, temps or length of brumation, we all experience different things and if you did more captive breeding of garters then so would you.

[ConcinusMan]

Somebody might have written it, but I'm not seeing it. I have done captive breeding but normal concinnus only, and not more than two generations removed. Still no slugs and very few neonates don't make it, very few still borns. Litters ranged from 25-50 healthy neonates. Everyone keeps telling me that concinnus litters are small.:cool: I certainly have never seen less than 25.

Are you sure the statement didn't mean that WC captives have higher fertility rates? It sure doesn't seem to apply to the litters born in the effort to produce snows, albino's, etc. and everyone knows inbreeding goes on to get there. Just sayin'

I certainly didn't mean to push a button and get everyone all defensive. You have to admit, there's been a lot of "slugging out" lately. Seems to have become the norm.

[BUSHSNAKE]

i produced snows and albinos and no they were not inbred, i dont take shortcuts, i took the time and did it right...i cant speak for anyone else but integrity comes first in my book... and i dont really know why females slug out nor does anyone else but as you can see it is common

[MasSalvaje]

i produced snows and albinos and no they were not inbred, i dont take shortcuts, i took the time and did it right...i cant speak for anyone else but integrity comes first in my book... and i dont really know why females slug out nor does anyone else but as you can see it is common

I am glad you take the time and resources to produce good lines, but I want to pose one question (okay maybe a few). Why is inbreeding looked down on so much? Doesn't it only make for weak progeny if there is a problem to begin with? I know that genetic bottlenecking can cause problems in wild populations because if something comes along that wipes one of them out it will wipe all of them out, but couldn't that be prevented in captivity?

Please don't take this that I condone inbreeding or even that I am against those that do inbreed their lines, I am just curious about the genetics behind it.

-Thomas

[snakeman]

You can breed siblings but if you go any farther than that i would say it is too much.Plus snakes slug out for many reasons.Not just inbreeding.Female is too thin,male has no sperm, not brumated long enough, too long brumation,etc.