Hybrids?

[lokai99]

So I have seen a few pics of interphases and such and it seems to me that hybrids are somethingthat readily happen in the garter snake world. Is hybridizing such a problem within the community? I'm getting my first garter from a trusted source so that's not gonna be an issue for me just curious as to how often hybrid snakes are encountered within the captive trade.

[infernalis]

Not often, most of the Thamnophis fans I have been in contact with over the years are purists.

I do have a checkered / Eastern cross that I got from a forum member back in 2008.

[ConcinusMan]

Hybrid corns, rat snakes, king / milk snakes are commonplace. Hybrids are fairly uncommon when it comes to garters. I think that crossing two different species is a mistake that I hope will not invade the garter hobby.

Let's not confuse the word "Hybrid" and "Intergrade". A hybrid would be for example T. Radix X T. sirtalis. Hybrids do not generally happen in the wild but intergrades do.

An intergrade (that occurs naturally) would be for example T. sirtalis concinnus X T. sirtalis pickeringii. (both are t. sirtalis but different subspecies.) T. sirtalis concinnus X T. sirtalis fitchii happens as well.

Not anything necessarily wrong with an intergrade but personally, I wouldn't want one.

[lokai99]

I have seen tons of hybrid kings, rats, corns, and milks. I have heard that the producers often have to work very hard at gettign say a corn to be receptive to a kingsnake. I didn't know if such is the case with garters where a hybrid would have to be intentionally created or if garters would just 'hook up" with any other garters species. Reason I asked is I saw a pet store that kept all their garters in one big tank because they were all garters. I think one was a concinnus and the other all looked pretty varied. So my question is this. He had a girl who to me looked pretty gravid. Do I assume she's fertilized by a different species or is it more likely wherever he got her from probably had a male concinnus? I'm not planning to get her, I don't even have a garter yet and multiple babies would be too tough of an undertaking for me.

[ConcinusMan]

Are you sure it's a concinnus? Too many people misidentify or mislabel any garter snake with red on the sides.

I can tell you this: Of the native garters in my area, there are T. sirtalis (concinnus) and T. ordinoides and they are always found sharing habitat and dens. Hybrids between these two NEVER occur in nature. I've kept both species together right out of the fridge. The males were going nuts over the smell of their own females but were NOT interested in the other species at all.

IF that "concinnus" really is a concinnus I can almost guarantee it would have bred with it's own species (T. sirtalis) before it would breed with another species.

sirtalis is "compatable" with, and will breed with T. radix and perhaps a few others but for the most part, they stay with their own kind. That might not sound like much, but there are a lot of different T. sirtalis out there. There's eastern garters, CA red-sided garters, san francisco garters, etc. ALL are T. sirtalis so crossing those subspecies are not hybrids, they are intergrades.

[lokai99]

Ok that answers it for me. I'm pretty sure it's a concinnus,

[ssssnakeluvr]

we find vagrans and fitchi in the same dens here....haven't found an intergrade yet!

[drache]

however
my vagrans male was all eager to mate with my concinnus male (who came from another enclosure and had concinnus female smell all over him)

keep in mind that things may happen in captivity that would be unlikely otherwise

[guidofatherof5]

I can tell you this: Of the native garters in my area, there are T. sirtalis (concinnus) and T. ordinoides and they are always found sharing habitat and dens. Hybrids between these two NEVER occur in nature.


You know what they say? Never say never!
Nature is full of surprizes.

[ConcinusMan]

we find vagrans and fitchi in the same dens here....haven't found an intergrade yet!

Yup! but that wouldn't be an intergrade. That would be a hybrid. T. elegans (vagrans) X T. sirtalis (fitchii.) .

[ConcinusMan]

You know what they say? Never say never!
Nature is full of surprizes.

OK, let me put it this way. You'd have a better chance of finding a 8-legged frog.

[infernalis]

OK, let me put it this way. You'd have a better chance of finding a 8-legged frog.

they live near 3 mile island....

http://i99.photobucket.com/albums/l283/beeblebrox666/oddFrog.jpg

[Laura]

hahahaha, i bet that frog can jump reaally high

[Spankenstyne]

LOL Wayne, you're killing me here.

[gregmonsta]

So I have seen a few pics of interphases and such and it seems to me that hybrids are somethingthat readily happen in the garter snake world. Is hybridizing such a problem within the community? I'm getting my first garter from a trusted source so that's not gonna be an issue for me just curious as to how often hybrid snakes are encountered within the captive trade.

Hybridisation does happen in the hobby. Usually when someone is keeping mixed species an wasn't 100% aware of the sexes of their snakes.
This question has popped up before. The reason why people don't do it is because there is simply no point. Breeding x + p to make a new colour-form, when you consider the already extensive variety in the existing species and sub-species, is really unecessary.
On another forum someone asked if he could breed tetrataenia with marcianus .... when asked why he said he fancied a tetrataenia with a checker pattern .... I told him to buy himself an infernalis before he thought about pollution the tetrataenia bloodline!

[guidofatherof5]

OK, let me put it this way. You'd have a better chance of finding a 8-legged frog.




http://i99.photobucket.com/albums/l283/beeblebrox666/oddFrog.jpg

You were saying:rolleyes:

[aSnakeLovinBabe]

I think if it happens intentionally in captivity... an "intergrade" should be referred to as a hybrid (and I do refer to them as hybrids) simply because it was on purpose, and by calling it an intergrade people are attempting to trivialize the fact that they are muddying good genes. In my book, a true intergrade is when two different subspecies manage to cross in the wild.... not because someone stuck the two together and wants to further justify it just because it's "not a hybrid, just an intergrade!".

[ConcinusMan]

You were saying:rolleyes:

I was saying you'd have a better chance of finding an 8 legged frog than a true hybrid (species X different species) in the wild:rolleyes:

[Spankenstyne]

You gotta admit that was pretty damn funny, and less than half an hour later...

[Stefan-A]

they live near 3 mile island....
Either that, or they're infected by a certain parasite.

[bkhuff1s]

As long as there is a willing buyer to a snake, there will always be a breeder willing to meet that need. Some buyers want pure genes, others want something different. In the Green Tree Python market a lot of "sub species" are crossed to get different color outcomes. It doesn't mean that there are no breeders of pure Aru's, Sorongs, or Canary's. Or that any specific snake is undesirable or unattractive. It comes down to that they are pet's, and if we really wanted them to remain 'pure' then we'd release them back into their respective habitats, and let nature take it's course. I think it's a little hypocritical to demonize some breeder simply because they want to try something different.

We are not demonizing the breeders of San Francisco Garters in Europe, because of the small breeding population, which leads to health issues over the long run. I'm pretty sure that most if not all of us would jump at an opportunity to own one, granted we could get it over here legally. I'm jumping now, but no snakes have arrived in the mail yet.

That last one was a joke to lighten the mood. :)