san francisco garters

[Tyrel26]

I was wondering if anyone has attempted to breed these garters and reintroduce them into the wild in an effort to help their numbers. I am fairly new to the breeding aspect of these snakes but the people here seem very good at it. So has anyone (that you know of) attempted this? and are there even any snakes available to breed in the first place.

I know that after a few generations of breeding in captivity it wouldn't be a good idea to release these snakes but what about catching gravid females and raising the young to a more favorable size to increase the odds of survival?

maybe this idea is very far fetched but i figured id toss it out there to try and get some feedback.

thanks for reading

[Stefan-A]

Their numbers isn't really a problem. The problem is that big concrete and asphalt thing, right in the middle of their former habitat, called San Francisco.

Anyway, it shouldn't even be attempted if it's not a part of a larger organized effort.

[ConcinusMan]

There is plenty of organized effort. There is enough wild snakes to keep the species from going extinct. BARELY. The main focus is, and needs to be, preservation and restoration of suitable habitat. Unfortunately, real estate prices are very high and the developers desire the same landscape that the snakes depend on. Also, development around the existing populations is hurting them due to runoff and other water quality issues, and the waning frog populations. Even in existing suitable habitat, where the there are no frogs, there are no garters either. It's a complex environmental situation that they depend on for survival.

Simply increasing their numbers by introducing captive bred snakes won't help. The excess population will just die off.

It's a catch 22 situation by NOT allowing collecting. As the gene pool narrows, hope for keeping the species alive even if only in captivity, fades.

It is well known that the CB European population is having problems due to a shallow gene pool.

If it weren't for several federal laws enacted since my birth in 1970, I'm sure they would already be extinct.

[Stefan-A]

Simply increasing their numbers by introducing captive bred snakes won't help. The excess population will just die off.
Indeed. Release enough and they'll deplete the food source and take a large portion of the wild population with them when they starve to death.

[ConcinusMan]

Anyone who thinks that any certain species is any more important than another, within a specific ecosystem is mistaken. Ecosystems are a delicate balance which cannot be contained in small reservations surrounded by development. The problem with SF garters is that they are a ways up on the food chain. If the native amphibians suffer, so do the garters.

Predators that eat garters can adapt to new prey. The garters cannot.

[Stefan-A]

Anyone who thinks that any certain species is any more important than another, within a specific ecosystem is mistaken.
Well, strictly speaking that's not really the case. The impact on the ecosystem if you wipe out something like earthworms or mosquitoes, is far more severe, than if you wipe out a reptile or mammal (there are exceptions, of course). Some species are more important than others, if the functioning of the ecosystem is how you measure importance.

[Tyrel26]

excellent points guys, im glad to see people taking part in this post.

you would think that there would be a way to issue a few special permits to allow breeders to collect a pair of snakes to breed just once before returning the pair to the wild and still be able to keep the offspring.

I studied conservation in college (and today i got a call about a conservation job, finally seems i will be a conservation officer!!!!) and i take great interest in these issues. the sad truth is that the only way to conserve this snake may be through captive breeding, but at least thats something. I wish the people in charge of these issues knew just how much you guys care for your snakes and that you guys aren't just some fools with snakes in a tank and would give at least a couple people like yourselves the oppurnity to breed these snakes. I am willing to bet there are already a few in private collections, legal or not.

who knows, maybe in the future someone will get that opportunity.

thanks for reading
tyrel

[Jeff B]

"the sad truth is that the only way to conserve this snake may be through captive breeding, but at least thats something."

I don't think it's a sad truth, but it is probably a reality that captive breeding is the only hope for a population with inevitably zero remaining natural habitat. I guess the other possiblity is relocation to similar habitat?

"I wish the people in charge of these issues knew just how much you guys care for your snakes and that you guys aren't just some fools with snakes in a tank and would give at least a couple people like yourselves the oppurnity to breed these snakes. I am willing to bet there are already a few in private collections, legal or not.

who knows, maybe in the future someone will get that opportunity."

I wish the people in charge would have your vision as well, I would love to work with them. I personally do not know anyone in the US with any underground San Frans. It certainly wouldn't be worth it for me to mess with them, but if someone "in charge" asked me to try to breed them and granted me legal priveledges, I would love to work with them.

[ssssnakeluvr]

I would love to work with them too!!

[Tyrel26]

well i am from canada so i dont know how the laws down there go with respect to endangered animals. I would imagine that these garters, like many others, would be fairly easy to breed (yes i am aware that it takes a lot of work to do this proper) and housing wouldnt be a problem for such a small animal.
Has anyone contacted the conservation officials on this? maybe it is possible to obtain a permit or work cooperatively with a zoo or reserve of some type. Of course there would never be any selling of the animals even if they are bred, but the true payoff would be just getting the chance to work with them.
At any rate it may be worth looking into, if you can find the right person a permit may be a possibility, worst anyone can say is no. Granted the chances of this working are very slim but theres still a chance; and like most great ideas it all starts with one person. it would be nice if it started with one of the people from here.

Ill try to send out a few emails (though I would not ask for a pair for myself in any event), if nothing else i may get some good information.

thanks for reading
Tyrel

[Tyrel26]

I just found an article on a breeder that has these snakes....the funny part is he is from Canada. Seems that once these snakes get across the border they are legal to own but strictly illegal in the US. In 2004 they were being sold for $1600 a pair, Im not sure if they are still being sold. I will try to contact the breeder just to get more information.

Thanks for reading
Tyrel

[guidofatherof5]

Here's a strange one for you.
There are 2 zoos in the US with S.F. Garters. San Francisco and San Diego Zoos.

I was shocked to learn(from the director of Zoo education) that the captive snake at both zoos came from the Amsterdam Zoo. At this point the US Government won't even allow any US snakes in our zoos.

[Tyrel26]

I read about that as well, one would think that zoos would be encouraged to have these snakes (depending on the zoo of course) rather than be prevented from having them.

[Stefan-A]

I guess the other possiblity is relocation to similar habitat?
Unfortunately, that method could easily turn an endangered species into an invasive one, especially when a species' original range was limited by geographical features. It could also mean the end of that species altogether, if a closely related species occurs in the same region.

[Stefan-A]

Here's a strange one for you.
There are 2 zoos in the US with S.F. Garters. San Francisco and San Diego Zoos.

I was shocked to learn(from the director of Zoo education) that the captive snake at both zoos came from the Amsterdam Zoo. At this point the US Government won't even allow any US snakes in our zoos.
Not surprising, or necessarily bad. Those snakes could only come from one other place: San Francisco.

[guidofatherof5]

I read about that as well, one would think that zoos would be encouraged to have these snakes (depending on the zoo of course) rather than be prevented from having them.

According to the person I spoke to. The Gov. is concidering allowing any found injured S.F garter to be placed at one of the zoos.
My surprise is the fact the US has no breeding program in place other than the orginal gene pool from Europe.

[Jeff B]

quote from Tyrel "I just found an article on a breeder that has these snakes....the funny part is he is from Canada. Seems that once these snakes get across the border they are legal to own but strictly illegal in the US. In 2004 they were being sold for $1600 a pair, Im not sure if they are still being sold. I will try to contact the breeder just to get more information."

Tyrel,
As someone who will be a future conservation officer, I hope you are taking notes, or at least getting a broad perspective on the effects of decisions made, both written law and the enforcement. You sound a little naive yet unjaded, which is very refreshing actually, lol, don't take that as an insult, believe me it is a very high compliment.
Trust me I am a 100% law abiding citizen, I am not anti government or anti laws, in fact I work for state government, but the point I want to make here is that often times good intentioned plans created by people who actually care about any give "said subject" can get "messy" when put into writting after the lawyers and other far removed from the subject people in charge with there own agenda get their hands on them, ect. ect., as well as the excecution and/or enforcement, and things don't always work out as originally planned. I would guess Steve, you have a very good understanding and lots of experience as well with what I am saying here? I'm not bashing the process, that's just the way it is anymore, everything has become so incredibly complicated and sometimes the common sense part gets "accidentallly"thrown out the window in the process.

quote from Tyrel "Has anyone contacted the conservation officials on this? maybe it is possible to obtain a permit or work cooperatively with a zoo or reserve of some type. Of course there would never be any selling of the animals even if they are bred, but the true payoff would be just getting the chance to work with them.
At any rate it may be worth looking into, if you can find the right person a permit may be a possibility, worst anyone can say is no. Granted the chances of this working are very slim but theres still a chance; and like most great ideas it all starts with one person. it would be nice if it started with one of the people from here. "

It's a nice idea, but for me personally, it would take more than finding the right person and a permit, an approval letter from the President and I might think about it, lol, I'm half kidding, but working with a federally protected species even with a permit would be a bit of a "hot potato" to say the least.

[Tyrel26]

Quote "You sound a little naive yet unjaded"

This could be taken in a couple different ways lol but you say its a complement so ill take your word for it.
I have studied laws, read papers, wrote papers....and though many laws are well implemented some still lack a view of the big picture. Many of the laws we abide by were put in place at the time to "save" what was left of something until a better plan could be put into place in the future, the problem is the better plans are sometimes forgotten and it takes some reminding to get the ball rolling again.
Sure it may be "naive" to talk as though a phone call can change things; but everything has to start somewhere.

As for a letter for the President....Ill see what I can do. lol


Thanks for reading
Tyrel

[ConcinusMan]

Once a bill is finalized and becomes law, if there's no provision for allowing exceptions under conditions, it literally takes an act of congress to change the law. A letter from the president will not do. The president cannot give you permission to break a law.

Now, in the case of California Condors the provision is there. Licensed conservationist groups and zoos are allowed to collect eggs to ensure that the eggs and chicks have a high rate of successfully growing up, they are collected and raised until they are independent and then released. this has been highly successful at increasing their numbers. Condor populations got so low because of DDT, poaching, and high chick mortality rates, not lack of suitable habitat.

Unfortunately because of the habitat issue, simply increasing their numbers by perhaps catching gravid females, releasing them when they pop, and raising the young to about a year old, would make little difference since the remaining land bearing sf garters is probably already supporting all the garters that it can, at any given time.

Well intentioned efforts to increase their numbers can hurt a species' survival in the long run, especially when there is so little remaining habitat. Introducing more snakes, or captive acquired snakes(and their genes) or offspring into such a small habitat is not a good idea for a variety of reasons. The only thing wise to do, would be to expand and restore areas adjacent to the remaining populations, closely monitor the habitat environment for issues that could threaten them, and take immediate action to correct it. Last I heard, the population is fairly stable, and only experiences ups and downs consistent with any normal fluctuations that occurs in any population of wild garter snakes. The only thing that's going to get them back to historic numbers is to restore and give them back their historic range; a very expensive and impossible thing to do.

[MasSalvaje]

Once a bill is finalized and becomes law, if there's no provision for allowing exceptions under conditions, it literally takes an act of congress to change the law. A letter from the president will not do. The president cannot give you permission to break a law.

No, but he can pardon you.:D

-Thomas

[ConcinusMan]

You'd have a better chance of getting congress to change the law.

[infernalis]

From what I have heard, even the specimens for sale in Canada originated from the same snakes that the European specimens originated from.

Sadly due to MANY generations of inbreeding, the gene pool is not very healthy anymore.

[Jeff B]

Believe me it was a compliment, I definately was NOT implying ignorance, just that it sounded like you haven't been in the work force long enough to have a jaded view of the processes, you still believe all things can be made right and accomplished, which is a good thing, and in some ways with your positive additude they still can, and more power to you, sincerely. All the best wishes for you and your future career.


Quote "You sound a little naive yet unjaded"

This could be taken in a couple different ways lol but you say its a complement so ill take your word for it.
I have studied laws, read papers, wrote papers....and though many laws are well implemented some still lack a view of the big picture. Many of the laws we abide by were put in place at the time to "save" what was left of something until a better plan could be put into place in the future, the problem is the better plans are sometimes forgotten and it takes some reminding to get the ball rolling again.
Sure it may be "naive" to talk as though a phone call can change things; but everything has to start somewhere.

As for a letter for the President....Ill see what I can do. lol


Thanks for reading
Tyrel

[Tyrel26]

Thanks for the kind words Jeff, I appreciate it

[mtolypetsupply]

Thought you might like to read this:

USFWS Sacramento Field Office 2006 Review of the San Francisco Garter Snake (http://www.fws.gov/cno/es/San%20Francisco%20Garter%20Snake%205%20Year%20Revi ew.FINAL.pdf)

I was especially interested in the recommendation on Page 32, last bulleted paragraph:

"Additionally, a captive breeding population comprised of the offspring of wild-born SFGS should be implemented....However absent additional funds, it is unknown whether this project will be able to continue."

Seems like the perfect opportunity to work with them on propagation of the species.

Sometime back (circa 1970's), however, there was input from some of the scientific community to no longer recognize tetrataenia as a subspecies, and make it a pattern morph of infernalis. I'll look for the link to that gov't doc. Anyway, doing that would now remove the endangered tag from that snake, and then remove the need for the preserved habitat, resulting in a mess politically.

Here's a link to the 1985 report, from which the info from Bury, Barry, and Fox allude to integrades at the least and morphs. (http://ecos.fws.gov/docs/recovery_plan/850911.pdf)

As urbanization has progressed, the SFGS, whether actually having been an infernalis or not, has become an increasingly isolated population, so the SFGS actually having been an infernalis may be a moot point, if not invalid.

Lastly, here's a link for the USFWS Species Profile (http://ecos.fws.gov/speciesProfile/profile/speciesProfile.action?spcode=C002)

[Stefan-A]

Sometime back (circa 1970's), however, there was input from some of the scientific community to no longer recognize tetrataenia as a subspecies, and make it a pattern morph of infernalis. I'll look for the link to that gov't doc. Anyway, doing that would now remove the endangered tag from that snake, and then remove the need for the preserved habitat, resulting in a mess politically.

Here's a link to the 1985 report, from which the info from Bury, Barry, and Fox allude to integrades at the least and morphs. (http://ecos.fws.gov/docs/recovery_plan/850911.pdf)

:)
http://www.cnah.org/comments.asp?id=398


The International Commission on Zoological Nomenclature (2000 Opinion 1961, Bulletin of Zoological Nomenclature 57(3): 191-192) has voted to retain the historical taxonomic arrangement of subspecies within this evolutionary lineage, rejecting the arrangement proposed by Boundy and Rossman (1995 Copeia 1995(1): 236-240). Accordingly, the subspecies tetrataenia is reinstated (see below) and the races concinnus and infernalis retain their historical definition.

[mtolypetsupply]

http://www.cnah.org/comments.asp?id=398


Good work finding that link, Stefan. Funny, it only took them what, 20+ years to get that reclassification denied?

:)

[Stefan-A]

4 years, if I'm not mistaken. From the petition to suppress it, to the decision being made. 5 years from the proposal by Rossman & Boundy.

Naturally, there's no reason to hurry with these decisions. People make poorly justified proposals all the time and they need to be reviewed.

[ConcinusMan]

Yeah, and it has since been proven with genetic testing that infernalis, tetrataenia, and concinnus are more closely related to garters in other parts of the country, than they are to each other!

As reasonable as they hypothesis is, tetrataenia is definitely NOT a pattern morph of infernalis.

[Stefan-A]

Yeah, and it has since been proven with genetic testing that infernalis, tetrataenia, and concinnus are more closely related to garters in other parts of the country, than they are to each other!

As reasonable as they hypothesis is, tetrataenia is definitely NOT a pattern morph of infernalis.
Do you have a source for that? I can't remember the title of the article that dealt with that issue and I think there might be a wee bit of a misunderstanding there.

[Stefan-A]

Nevermind, I found the article.

Molecular phylogeography of common garter snakes
(Thamnophis sirtalis) in western North America:
implications for regional historical forces

Skimmed through it, might have missed something, so corrections are appreciated.

The short version of the conclusions (well, one conclusion relevant to this discussion) was that T. sirtalis in the western US are split into three separate groups that are about as closely related to each other, as they are to T. sirtalis further east.

[ConcinusMan]

Oh. That's not what I read. Wish I could find the article. but anyway, we know that sf garters are not a pattern morph of CA red sideds. If they were, you would expect one to give birth and see both patterns.

[Stefan-A]

but anyway, we know that sf garters are not a pattern morph of CA red sideds. If they were, you would expect one to give birth and see both patterns.
Why would you expect that to happen? There are numerous colour morphs of all the other subspecies and they do give birth to offspring that resemble the parents.

[ConcinusMan]

I guess I would expect it because that's what CA kings do?

[charles parenteau]

san francisco pictures
http://i151.photobucket.com/albums/s152/parenteau/secret.jpg
http://i151.photobucket.com/albums/s152/parenteau/DrPBapril20090035.jpg
[IMG]http://i151.photobucket.com/albums/s152/parenteau/DrPBapril20090008.jpg[/IMG
http://i151.photobucket.com/albums/s152/parenteau/DrPBapril20090011.jpg

[Spankenstyne]

Are those yours Charles or are they some shots of the good Dr Phil's collection?
Either way thanks for posting them!

[Snakeknot]

Great thread! I wish San Fran garters weren't endangered. They're a beautiful snake. But at the same time, I'd hate them to show up in pet stores because of their colors. It would definitely be a crime if they were to disappear entirely. I hate developers! They just don't get it!

Devon

[guidofatherof5]

I hate developers! They just don't get it!

Devon

Yes they do. Money! At a great cost.

[infernalis]

I hate developers! They just don't get it!

Devon


Developers care about real estate value and little else.....

[mtolypetsupply]

I hate developers! They just don't get it!

Devon


Developers care about real estate value and little else.....


If no one bought those McMansions all squeezed onto tiny pieces of property, the developers wouldn't be making money on them. I'm not fond of people who want to live right on top of one another who keep those developers in business. ;)

[charles parenteau]

Yes thoses snake are from my friend collection ....thoses snakes are legal by the way.....

[Stefan-A]

I wish San Fran garters weren't endangered.
Don't worry, they'll be classed as "CR" soon enough. And a few years later, "EW".

[charles parenteau]

more pictures

http://i151.photobucket.com/albums/s152/parenteau/DrPBapril20090008.jpg

[Jeff B]

If people would stop having so many babies the developers wouldn't NEED to keep developing new ground, think about it, is it really all the developers fault or rather a human population issue in general? or is the answer simply build taller high rise apartments and ban suburban sprawl?

[charles parenteau]

DEveloppers !!!THey build streets ,destroy land,built condos,houses and try to sell it to people once they are built....lot of steets full of brand new condos all empty!!!

[Tyrel26]

If you build it, they will come!

I think I can assume that we all live in a house or an apartment of some sort; therefore, we too are sharing in the blame when it comes to habitat destruction. Maybe the habitat that once existed where your house now stands wasn't/isn't the habitat of an endangered species but sometime in the future it may very well be.

The main thing is that people don't realize is we too are subject to cycles just like every other animal on earth. Our population will continue to grow higher and higher until enough disease, disasters, starvation, war , etc... take place to help control our numbers; then our numbers will slowly stabilize. Its all about the carrying capacity.

Sadly, in order for once species to thrive others are always put at risk of total destruction.

[Jeff B]

Exactly, a petri dish is a petri dish no matter how big it is

[Stefan-A]

Our population will continue to grow higher and higher until enough disease, disasters, starvation, war , etc... take place to help control our numbers; then our numbers will slowly stabilize.
We're a bit different than most species. Our numbers stabilize and our birth rates drop as life expectancy increases. Our population is expected to max out at around 9 billion (that's just 2.2 billion away), if current trends continue. The sad thing is, that as our life expectancy increases, so does our use of resources, at an exponential rate.

Disease, disasters, starvation and war does have a drastic impact on our numbers, but instead of bringing them down to a more tolerable level, they seem to first cause a small, almost insignificant drop and then an enormous, albeit temporary increase. Case in point, the post-WWII baby boom. The war itself, with 70 million+ dead, doesn't even register. Even when we did our best to kill each other, we didn't even manage to make a dent in the population curve.

[bsol]

There is always going to be development. There's always going to be deforestation whether its here or on another continent. Babies will still be born and there will always be war. It will be more prevelant in the decades to come.
Our planet is shrinking and it has been since we started to stand upright. I'm not a believer in the 9 billion human population plateau. That would mean the death rate will equal the birth rate. It wont happen. Not with technology growing at the rate it is.
Take advantage of what we have now. Get dirty and take in as much of nature as you can. I try and get out as much as possible. I bring home poison ivy and tics all the time. Get off your computer and go hiking in the rain.

[Jeff B]

"Get dirty and take in as much of nature as you can. I try and get out as much as possible. I bring home poison ivy and tics all the time. Get off your computer and go hiking in the rain. "

Amen to that brother, although I prefer gardening, hunting, fishing, and I certainly appreciate hiking too......but in the rain? Seems the older I get the more of a fair weather outdoorsman I've become, lol.
However, I used to slowly drive the country roads when it would rain in the spring especially if it would rain near dusk, all the frogs, toads, and reptiles would be out crossing the roads and easy to see and get out and have a look at them...maybe you were eluding to similar experiences when hiking in the rain? If so, that sounds like a great idea, might have to try it?

[bsol]

Amen to that brother, although I prefer gardening, hunting, fishing, and I certainly appreciate hiking too......but in the rain? Seems the older I get the more of a fair weather outdoorsman I've become, lol.
However, I used to slowly drive the country roads when it would rain in the spring especially if it would rain near dusk, all the frogs, toads, and reptiles would be out crossing the roads and easy to see and get out and have a look at them...maybe you were eluding to similar experiences when hiking in the rain? If so, that sounds like a great idea, might have to try it?

Yeah. It all started with driving sloooow on the back roads right after or during a summer shower checking out all the cold blooded animals. Then I was like wait... lets walk this road. haha. My friends think I'm nuts, but my wife loves me so I'm fine with all that!

[Jeff B]

Yeah. It all started with driving sloooow on the back roads right after or during a summer shower checking out all the cold blooded animals. Then I was like wait... lets walk this road. haha. My friends think I'm nuts, but my wife loves me so I'm fine with all that!

Yeah man we're livin' right, our friends all think were crazy but our wives think we're "special" and love us to death, and we love them back for it, doesn't get any better than that in my book, lol

[ConcinusMan]

The desert east of San Diego or CA's central valley is a great place to walk the roads at night, especially after it rains. It's a fun activity. You get to see all kinds of herps that you normally would never get a chance to see. I even once found a checkered garter that way, near the Arizona border. Before that, I didn't even imagine a garter snake could be found in that habitat.

[sschind]

According to the person I spoke to. The Gov. is concidering allowing any found injured S.F garter to be placed at one of the zoos.
My surprise is the fact the US has no breeding program in place other than the orginal gene pool from Europe.

The problem with captive breeding in zoos is where do you go with the offspring. Since there is no re-introduction plan no zoos will make the attempt to breed them because they will be stuck with all the babies. They can't even sell them to other zoos right now.

[ShangXiang]

I know this thread is a couple years old now. but here's my input anyway.<br><br>Section 4.0, Recommendations for future actions - page 30-32<br>(<a href="http://www.fws.gov/cno/es/San Francisco Garter Snake 5 Year Review.FINAL.pdf">http://www.fws.gov/cno/es/San Francisco Garter Snake 5 Year Review.FINAL.pdf</a>)<br><br>In my understanding of the&nbsp;necessary&nbsp;proposed actions, the SF and SD Zoos will breed the 10 SFGSs imported from the Netherlands, and place the offspring on loan to other facilities through-out North America. &nbsp;Also, new holding facilities are to be put in place to protect wild SFGS &nbsp;(and most likely a few more of the local species), and to breed a head start program, while parts of the habitat go through a "burning regime" to kick start regrowth of grasslands and "early seral stage habitats". &nbsp;In other areas, fresh new ponds are to be built, and the levees and culverts from Pescadero Marsh are to be removed to reduce salinity. &nbsp;In my opinion, if we can get the funds to get these plans into action, this habitat will have a better chance of sustaining the San Francisco Garter Snake, as well it's primary food sources, the Pacific Tree Frog, the California Red-Legged Frog (also endangered, but with a habitat spanning most of California's coastline), and a possible Bullfrog introduction. &nbsp;Now, to just get rid of that Chytrid Fungus, which could have a negative impact on the Amphibian prey.<br>