hmm?? Eastern Sound blues lol.

[Artic Exotics]

So I took in a pair of Easterns from a cat that had housed them together.

The female is normal yellow but pretty IMHO and gawd awful huge. I named her Shiloh.

The male is a nice blue, and much calmer. His name is River.

The cat I bought them from mentioned to me she could be pregnant (by him of course) and while waiting for my herp vet to get back I figure id ask the forum

what do you think about if she is or not?

heres a few pictures, im not sure why there is such a huge color difference with the flash, but they all are her.

this wouldnt be my first surprise litter, but it is the first time i've been sold blue easterns when i thought i was buying puget sound blues lol. Next time I buy from better established breeders. lesson learned.

http://img441.imageshack.us/img441/2076/img0740u.jpghttp://img443.imageshack.us/img443/6300/img0754v.jpg

http://img121.imageshack.us/img121/6642/img0745bl.jpg

[drache]

there are people with far better ID skills than myself on this forum, but . . .
she looks like a Florida blue T.s.sirtalis (Eastern) to me
I can't tell exactly what he is, but he kind of looks like a T.s.similis to me

[aSnakeLovinBabe]

This is so funny because not too long ago I had to reveal to someone on Iherp that their snake was NOT a similis, but a puget sound garter. They bought a "florida blue garter" and got a puget. Haha!

Those are FL blue easterns, and the female does look gravid!

[drache]

so the male is a florida blue also - thanks for clarifying that, Shannon

[Artic Exotics]

Thats what I thought too! I have had several puget sounds in my life because I used to live there and caught em all the time as a kiddo. So when I opened the box on these too characters and I saw this funny shaped head and strange thick tails I was like ????? They're still pretty cool though. he's very blue in real life. Any other guesses on her mommy status?

[GarterGeek]

How long ago did she eat before you took the photo?

[Artic Exotics]

How long ago did she eat before you took the photo? Oh yes sorry I forgot to mention that! These were taken on seperate days so I couldnt tell you exactly on each, but Im pretty sure she had just ate in the bottom one. Sorry I meant to say that earlier. You know how it goes when you start taking pictures of your snakes and ya get carried away...... I'd say the middle photo although a horrible representation of her color is an accurate representation of her "girlish figure". She hadnt ate yet in the top one either... I could certianly take more photos after she empties out (expecting that today she's been rather 'regular' lol )....

[ConcinusMan]

I noticed the food bulge. Not the same place a gravid bulge happens.

I would say definitely gravid on the top right snake. Pretty much looking like my red stripe ordinoides female right now. It's taking her quite a bit of effort to drag that last 1/3 around now. It's quite heavy and lumpy. I palpatated her yesterday and I could have sworn I felt one move! Not sure about that other snake you have. could be mid-stage gravid.

I seriously wish people would quit calling easterns "florida blue". I don't care how blue an eastern is, it is not T.s. similis.

It's also irritating to find people selling "Oregon Red-spot" when it's really a fitchii or pickeringii.

[drache]

I seriously wish people would quit calling easterns "florida blue". I don't care how blue an eastern is, it is not T.s. similis.
I don't think anyone is calling just any Easterns "florida blue"
there is a local variety of easterns specific to Florida that typically has a blue/green colouration and is referred to as Florida blues, and yes - they are not similis (which are also referred to as Florida blue-stripe garters), but they are definitely distinguishable from other easterns as a specific group
I hope I explained that decently enough
they are blue Easterns specific to Florida
are there blue easterns elsewhere? somebody else answer that

[ConcinusMan]

I saw one that supposedly came from North Carolina.

[drache]

I saw one that supposedly came from North Carolina.
maybe they bought it from Scott
I've got some plains garters that came from NC

[ConcinusMan]

That's not what I meant. It was a WC specimen.

[drache]

by definition florida blue easterns would be from florida - I kind of doubt they range north that far

[Artic Exotics]

hmm... yeah I dont know where these two are from specifically, as they were sold to me as puget sound blues, and were shipped from California... Im definitely not the ID expert here, I just guessed they were a blue eastern of some sort. Couldnt tell ya if they were from florida or not.

[ConcinusMan]

Thanks rhea. Your statement prompted me to do some research on the confusion and I'm not so confused any more. similis is a blue-striped garter only found in florida. I saw some true pictures of that snake. I also learned that florida has easterns with some degree of bluing, but they still look like easterns.

Anyone purchasing "florida blue garters" better make sure what they are getting. If it's a blue eastern they want, (T.sirtalis sirtalis) or a "florida blue striped garter" (T. sirtalis similis) because there is definitely a difference. Watch your step and make sure you don't end up with the wrong snake. You could conceivably even end up with a puget, or try to buy a puget (t.sirtalis pickeringii) and end up with similis. I can definitely see how that could happen. While ALL of these snakes are the same species, and some overlap in range, resulting in intergrades, they aren't true hybrids since they are all sirtalis. Deliberate or accidental crossing of ssp's happens in captivity as well.

Shannon purchased a "concinnus" a while back at a show (named rainbow man) but It sure as heck looked like a lot like fitchii's found in Oregon, right on the fringes of concinnus' range as you head east along the columbia river.(natural intergrades occur there too) Furthermore, in the SE portion of the puget's range, even "pure" pugets tend to not be blue, but look more like a concinnus intergrade even though that is not necessarily the case.

All these mentioned ssp's should be looked at with scrutiny if you're looking to buy a specific subspecies, I guess, is the point I'm trying to get across. Know your subspecies, and know the natural variations that can occur. If you can't quite pin it down, (the I.D.) it just might be a ssp cross, or worse, a hybrid. Where garters are concerned, I definitely don't approve of the practice of intentionally crossing species (T.radix X T. sirtalis for example) We need to let breeders know we don't approve by NOT buying questionable snakes, no matter how pretty or "neat" they can be.


hmm... yeah I dont know where these two are from specifically, as they were sold to me as puget sound blues, and were shipped from California... Im definitely not the ID expert here, I just guessed they were a blue eastern of some sort. Couldnt tell ya if they were from florida or not.

wouldn't happen to have any pics would you?

[drache]

just something else to consider:
of the garters I've personally seen, the similis and the pickeringi seem to be more blue, whereas the florida blue sirtalis will generally grow larger; I seem to recall reading somewhere that the florida blues grow larger than other easterns even

[Artic Exotics]

Where garters are concerned, I definitely don't approve of the practice of intentionally crossing species (T.radix X T. sirtalis for example) We need to let breeders know we don't approve by NOT buying questionable snakes, no matter how pretty or "neat" they can be.

Aye yes I would agree, I suppose I fell prey to the folly of not getting a picture first. I was assured these were pugets several times by the cat I got them from, and he lived on the west coast, and seemed to know a good bit about their care (like the thiamine thing). So i figured he knew his stuff. It just didn't happen to be the case, and that is why I asked the experts here.:D

[ConcinusMan]

just something else to consider:
of the garters I've personally seen, the similis and the pickeringi seem to be more blue, whereas the florida blue sirtalis will generally grow larger; I seem to recall reading somewhere that the florida blues grow larger than other easterns even

Not to mention, with blue easterns, the stripes usually aren't blue, especially the dorsal. Some pickeringii have no blue at all and with exception of red spots on some, they don't have a patterned dorsal. No spots. Just dark and solid.

[Brewster320]

are there blue easterns elsewhere? somebody else answer that

There is a area of my city were all the Easterns have atleast some blue to them, but I've seen a few with extreme amount of blue. Last summer I saw a DOR female that had neon blue checkering and a neon blue stripe going th entire length of the body, with a little blue on the face. I know its not as extreme as the blues in Florida but its pretty good for coming as far North as Massachusetts. Also I'm sure that with selective breeding you could increase the blue. One of my garters is from this area, he's got blue checkering and shows a decent amount of blue. It shows best after a shed, and considering that ones in shed now I'll try to get some pictures if you'd all like when he sheds.

[aSnakeLovinBabe]

I seriously wish people would quit calling easterns "florida blue". I don't care how blue an eastern is, it is not T.s. similis.



you are confused my dear.... the easterns ARE the florida blues. You are not supposed to inlucde florida in the name of t.s.similis. Similis is called the Bluestriped Garter.... not Florida Bluestriped Garter. The easterns are called "florida blue" because they are a specific locality/look to them that very clearly distinguishes them from other easterns, EVEN IF that particular animal is not very blue. so people are correct in calling the easterns florida blues.

[aSnakeLovinBabe]

There is a area of my city were all the Easterns have atleast some blue to them, but I've seen a few with extreme amount of blue. Last summer I saw a DOR female that had neon blue checkering and a neon blue stripe going th entire length of the body, with a little blue on the face. I know its not as extreme as the blues in Florida but its pretty good for coming as far North as Massachusetts. Also I'm sure that with selective breeding you could increase the blue. One of my garters is from this area, he's got blue checkering and shows a decent amount of blue. It shows best after a shed, and considering that ones in shed now I'll try to get some pictures if you'd all like when he sheds.


If it was dead... the reason it was blue was most likely because it was dead.... I found a BRIGHT blue dead garter on my grandparents farm that was hit by a lawnmower. I freaked thinking oh my gosh I could have found this GORGEOUS blue snake while it was still alive. then I found another dead snake.... that was blue. THEN another.... and then it clicked. They turn blue after death. In fact I just found a dead one in my yard that was in the process of turning blue. I have found some easterns in my area that have light blue checkering.... they are lovely!

[Brewster320]

If it was dead... the reason it was blue was most likely because it was dead.... I found a BRIGHT blue dead garter on my grandparents farm that was hit by a lawnmower. I freaked thinking oh my gosh I could have found this GORGEOUS blue snake while it was still alive. then I found another dead snake.... that was blue. THEN another.... and then it clicked. They turn blue after death. In fact I just found a dead one in my yard that was in the process of turning blue. I have found some easterns in my area that have light blue checkering.... they are lovely!
That could be it but I've seen live garters in the area with blue too so I'm not sure. I don't know how long they take to turn blue either though, but this one was pretty fresh. Still bleedng but clearly dead.

I should probably go out herping there soon and see what I can find.

[Mommy2many]

I have a baby from last August that I swear has blue in it, though it is not a Florida Blue Eastern but Mom is a W/C from Connecticut. These babies are all different and vary from almost all black to very yellow, to the blue in the one. Very pretty and very much different from each other.

[Brewster320]

I have a baby from last August that I swear has blue in it, though it is not a Florida Blue Eastern but Mom is a W/C from Connecticut. These babies are all different and vary from almost all black to very yellow, to the blue in the one. Very pretty and very much different from each other.
please post a picture!

[ConcinusMan]

Yeah, I found an ordinoides the other day that at first glance looked like a light blue puget.