First 2010 litters, three of them !

[Scott F]

Had 3 females pop today, one was a male het anerythristic flame eastern bred to a dark het female anery eastern, she produced 7 normals, 9 flames and 2 stillborns. Second was a female cherry red Carteret Cty double het erythristic albino bred to 2 male erythristic albinos, she produced 2 erythrisitic albinos, 2 het erythristic albinos and 4 stillborns (2 albinos, 2 hets). Lastly was an odd one, a Myrtle Beach double het (erythristic x albino) was bred to erythristic albino and there's only been 1 albino produced (which passed shortly thereafter). Expect there could be more in the next few days, will keep you all posted. Will get pics up of parents and offspring shortly.

Scott

[bkhuff1s]

Can't wait for the pics..

[prattypus]

Hope all your birthings are plentiful- I may not have my infernalis or anery anymore but that doesn't stop me wanting to rebuild-

[snakeman]

Still no anerys?Thats a wierd gene.Do you think the original anery looked normal as a baby?

[guidofatherof5]

Glad to hear about the little scrubs that made it.

[drache]

hm - bit of a mixed blessing, eh?
congrats to the survivors

[gregmonsta]

Congrats :) bring on the piccies.

[BUSHSNAKE]

Awesome Scott!

[ssssnakeluvr]

awesome! STILL waiting for my first litter here.....

[Scott F]

Noyt sure what is up w/ this anery gene. Some of the 08 "normals" (From breeding the original anerythristic to a flame, got flames and normals) darkened up quite a bit, but not to the degree to label them anerythristic. The best way to go from here is to breed it to something else besides the flames. It is possible that the flame trait, being co-dominant, could be preventing them from becoming anery (maybe masking) Would love to here Jeff B's opinion on this. Anywho will try and breed something else to her, as I did this year (Florida albino), to see if ultimately her trait can be replicated.

Scott

[Jeff B]

Congrats on you're litters Scott, looks like you get to ride the same roller coaster, lol....well you still have dozens of females to go.
I am wondering if the flame is having some counter effect too, but also like you said Scott, and we have both noticed and talked about this before, some of those normals have continued to get darker, and maybe they will continue to get darker, so I don't know, at this point it's looking like it might just be a polygenic or dark strain type that may produce increasing amounts or buildup of melanin as the snake developes and ages, rather than a single recessive gene mutation with a dramatic change in a pigment pathway, that is obvious from birth. Maybe the only way to really maintain the look of the original wild caught Mohr "anery" snake would be to breed her to a darker type normal and line breed it, but that is really worthless to producing any truely predictable designer combo morphs like a snow. I will say this though, it still may have value as an enhancing outcross, look what it did to the flames, they are smokers, black and orange. It also may still have some value combined with a T+ albino like the Schuett, even if it doesn't create another snow type combo, it may make an even darker more carmel snake? shrug
I suppose it is still possible that it is a simple recessive and you just haven't hit the odds yet, but it's getting statistically less likely, right, what are the total number of normals that you have produced from "het" breedings back to the original female? Also have you even produced any babies yet from normal offspring F1s bred to normal offspring F1s?
Just to clarify for everyone reading who may not know what the heck F1 means, F1s being "First Generation from wild" i.e. the normal babies produced from the orignal wild caught "anery looking snake" of Jeff Morhs.

[Scott F]

Jeff,

Thanks for chiming in. The anerythristic gene is definately an odd one. I will most likely try the Schuett line, maybe even the erythristic albinos to her next year. At worst would have outcrossed het erythristic albinos, at best possibly double het for snow, erythristic albino and possibly even melanistic. Now that would be a cool litter !

Scott
.

[Scott F]

Here's the babies, really like their colors:
http://gallery.kingsnake.com/data/3643Eastern_flame_from_Mohr_het_anery_CB_2010_05_0 3_2010-med.JPG

http://gallery.kingsnake.com/data/3643Eastern_flame_from_Mohr_het_anery_4_CB_2010_05 _03_2010-med.JPG

http://gallery.kingsnake.com/data/3643Eastern_flame_from_Mohr_het_anery_3_CB_2010_05 _03_2010-med.JPG

http://gallery.kingsnake.com/data/3643Eastern_flame_from_Mohr_het_anery_2_CB_2010_05 _03_2010-med.JPG

Here's "Grandma", the original anerythristic eastern. She was bred to a Florida albino this year.
http://gallery.kingsnake.com/data/3643Eastern_Anerythristic_Upstate_SC_Mohr_strain_P roven_female_4_LTC_01_25_2009-med.JPG


Here are the pics of the parents:

Here's mom, she was produced from the anerythristic being bred to a flame back in 2008, she is a "normalish" looking eastern but has darkened up dramatically over time.
http://gallery.kingsnake.com/data/3643Eastern_normal_het_Mohr_anery_1cb_08_05_03_201 0-med.JPG


Scott
.

[Scott F]

Here's the male flame produced in 2008 from the anerythristic that fathered the litter, really like his colors as he is a dark cherry red color, Sorry for the crappy pics.

Scott

http://gallery.kingsnake.com/data/3643Eastern_flame_het_Mohr_anery_cb_08_05_03_2010-med.JPG


http://gallery.kingsnake.com/data/3643Eastern_flame_het_Mohr_anery_2_cb_08_05_03_201 0-med.JPG

[ConcinusMan]

Still don't understand why anerythristic (or axanthic) must darken a snake. Why would one expect that? Make's no sense to me, and is certainly not the case with concinnus.

Anerythristic or axanthic does not necessarily increase melanin. In fact, I only heard about this recently when I said that an "axanthic" snake of scotts looked melanistic to me. I keep seeing pics of "anery" plains but they look to me exactly like melanistic ordinoides I have found in the past. Those two pics above look downright melanistic.

[Stefan-A]

Still don't understand why anerythristic (or axanthic) must darken a snake. Why would one expect that? Make's no sense to me, and is certainly not the case with concinnus.
Single genes can have multiple functions.

I'm not saying this is what's happened here, this is just an example to illustrate why it can make sense, but if a gene has an impact on the production of a certain protein, for example, it can manifest in a combination of eg. abnormal skin and eye colour, deformations and susceptibility to certain diseases.

[ConcinusMan]

Sure, that's what I'm saying. There's something going on with that gene that not only makes them anery but also melanistic.

[bkhuff1s]

Maybe they're kind of like Green Tree Python's and that trait changes over time. Like GTP's go from brown/maroon/yellow as new borns to green as adults. Just a thought...

[Jeff B]

Still don't understand why anerythristic (or axanthic) must darken a snake. Why would one expect that? Make's no sense to me, and is certainly not the case with concinnus.

Anerythristic or axanthic does not necessarily increase melanin. In fact, I only heard about this recently when I said that an "axanthic" snake of scotts looked melanistic to me. I keep seeing pics of "anery" plains but they look to me exactly like melanistic ordinoides I have found in the past. Those two pics above look downright melanistic.

The reason is the melanin is always there on the normal or wild type snake but it in combination and pigment layers with other pigments that creates the looks of browns, yellow browns brownish blacks, brownish red, ect ect. but then when you strip off or take away erythrins or xanthins, sometimes you are left with the more blacks, grays, and blues left from the remaining melanin (still same level but now a different look, and apprears to be an increase but may not be) and sometimes still other pigmentation effects remain. It doesn't have to just be an increase in melanin to cause black (although that can certainly happen as well) but can also be the result of loss of "other" pigments too.
See what i am saying? there are two different ways to get to a similar effect or look, take or strip away the others, or increase the melanin to mask or smother the others.
Either way we are guessing without actually measuring the changes in levels and/or ratios of the actual pigments involved.

[ConcinusMan]

That makes sense. Kind of like anery turning my snakes that weird green color. I assumed that the weird green color was always there, but not noticeable because of other pigments which are now missing, allowing you to see the green color.

Still having a hard time understanding how "anery" removes yellow from a radix though.

[Jeff B]

Exactly, you don't know whats under the top coat of paint untill you scrape it off.
The plains anery is a dicey one, to me, it shows classic characteristics of anery, axanthic, and melanistic, and the same could be said about the eastern melanistic(which also has a subtractive effect on pattern), which all 3 labels(anery,axanthic,melanistic) get kinda muddy. For me, one thing that really kind of helps demonstrate whats going on or gives us some evidence as to what is going on, is what it does in combination with albinos, and the end subtractive result seen in the different snows.