Is this a garter snake?

[dishman123]

Hello everyone. We found a snake in our house today and figured that it was probably a garter snake. However, it was dark in the area and we weren't taking any chances, so I got it out of the house ASAP. Once I had it outside I took some pictures (links below).

http://img158.imagevenue.com/img.php?image=55222_snake1_122_65lo.jpg
http://img31.imagevenue.com/img.php?image=55222_snake2_122_427lo.jpg
http://img188.imagevenue.com/img.php?image=55225_snake3_122_252lo.jpg

From what I've read today, garter snakes generally have a stripe down the side, right? I don't see a clear stripe in my pics. :( So, I thought I should find a forum of experts who could chime in on this! :) Is this a garter snake or something else? And if it's something else, any clue as to what it is?

Thanks for your help. We're just trying to figure out if we should be worried or what to think. Oh, and one last thing... we live in southern Indiana if that helps.

[Stefan-A]

Nope, that is not a garter and if it's not dead in that picture, it will be within a few days.

As for what it is, I'm leaning towards a ratsnake (Pantherophis sp.) of some kind. Or prairie kingsnake. Not an expert on that clade.

[Spankenstyne]

Looks like a baby Black Rat Snake.

[drache]

poor thing
not a garter, but not dangerous, if that's what you're concerned about

[MasSalvaje]

Looks like a baby Black Rat Snake.

I second that.

-Thomas

[ssssnakeluvr]

probably a baby black rat....nearly dead... :(

[Quibble]

Poor thing is so broken...

[infernalis]

I'm speechless here, anything I say at this point is not going to be good......

Poor little snake. :(

[ConcinusMan]

You probably have cats if you didn't do that damage to the snake. It was in your house and it's fatally wounded. Looks like something "the cat dragged in"

Personally, I have a hard time understanding how that could be mistaken for a garter snake.:cool:

[Tyrel26]

.....what happened to it??? :( even if you were scared of it theres no reason to cause that much damage to it...its tiny, (if you didn't cause that damage i am sorry) Also if you know where it is now and its still alive its suffering should be ended but if you do that, please do it properly

dont be surprised if people here have negative comments, you have to realise that we care for snakes very much and most, if not all, of the people here wouldnt do that to a snake even if it was taking a bite out of them

[prattypus]

Personally, I have a hard time understanding how that could be mistaken for a garter snake.:cool:[/QUOTE]

Some people just don't do snakes. At least it's not a gardener snake.;)

[guidofatherof5]

Thanks for taking the time to join the forum and seek our advice. Thanks for being concerned for that snake. As you can see we are passionate about snakes, especially garter snakes. Snakes as a rule are looked down upon and no snake is disdained more than the garter snake, even by other snake people. We on the other hand see their great worth.
I think that they could very easily be called the companion snake of the snake world. They are harmless, docile and curious about us. Many members post about how their snakes like to get out and hang with them. Once they trust us they truly trust us. Mine love to get involved in whatever I'm doing. Try cleaning a cage with them in it. You spend more time pushing them out of the way than cleaning. It's their home and they want to know what's going on.
Please keep us posted on the snake.

[ConcinusMan]

Yup. What he said ^^:p I've handled many species of snakes and I have to say, N.Am garters are the sweetest among the snakes. Everything about their nature that we can relate to is there and it's the same kind of sweet nature that a smart puppy-dog would have. Only garters have the ability to recpricate (or communicate feelings) as far as I can tell, or at least they are the only ones that I can understand. Either way, the bond is there.

[Odie]

Hi, from Oregon, dishman123 :)

[ConcinusMan]

Just for the record, a garter snake will usually have a stripe right down the middle of it's back. Not always, but usually. Ribbon snakes are very similar.

[Stefan-A]

Just for the record, a garter snake will usually have a stripe right down the middle of it's back. Not always, but usually. Ribbon snakes are very similar.
Just for the record, ribbon snakes ARE garter snakes.

[ConcinusMan]

Oh no. They are thamnophis. IF you choose to call all thamnophis "garter snakes" then yes.

There has always been a distinction between the two, for me, as long as I can remember. Really though, the difference is as little as that between a yam and a sweet potato.

[Stefan-A]

Oh no. They are thamnophis. IF you choose to call all thamnophis "garter snakes" then yes.
Oh yes. And yes, that is the definition of "garter snake".

[ConcinusMan]

"Tomaytoe", "tomahtoe". All texts I read while a youngster said Thamnophis - "Garter AND ribbon snakes" . If they were all garters, then why the "and" ?

The point I was trying to make is that if it doesn't have a stripe down the middle, and usually the sides too, it's probably NOT a garter snake, within the range of the black rat snake.

[Stefan-A]

"Tomaytoe", "tomahtoe". All texts I read while a youngster said Thamnophis - "Garter AND ribbon snakes" . If they were all garters, then why the "and" ?
Because people are easily confused. They'd walk around in book stores and libraries aimlessly looking for books about ribbon snakes if the books didn't have that in the title.

As for good reasons to separate Thamnophis into garters and ribbons, there are none. Here's a consensus tree to show why:

http://koti.mbnet.fi/thamnoph/photos/snakes10/thamcontree.jpg

[ConcinusMan]

Well shoot. Can't argue with gentic testing to prove relationships between very similar animals. Can't argue with it at all. I did say I was a youngster. I was already well into adulthood when that was written and and DNA analysis was in it's infancy. They had certainly NOT gotten around to testing snakes before I was 18 years old.

So that leaves us with visually apparent differences. I have to admit, if I held a "ribbon" snake in my presence, I would see it as such. I would not mistake it for a "garter" snake. I've seen many garters. I've seen many ribbon snakes. There's a distinct difference even if it's not apparent to the layman or to genetics.

There's a distinct visually apparent difference. I have not seen a single ribbon snake that I could mistake for a garter. If you know what I mean.

[Stefan-A]

So that leaves us with visually apparent differences. I have to admit, if I held a "ribbon" snake in my presence, I would see it as such. I would not mistake it for a "garter" snake. I've seen many garters. I've seen many ribbon snakes. There's a distinct difference even if it's not apparent to the layman or to genetics.

There's a distinct visually apparent difference. I have not seen a single ribbon snake that I could mistake for a garter. If you know what I mean.

Another bunch of garters that don't "look like garters":

Sumichrast's garter snake
Mexican Black-Bellied Garter Snake
Tamaulipan Montane Garter Snake
Southern Durango Spotted Garter Snake
Narrow-Headed Garter Snake
Mexican Pacific Lowlands Garter Snake

Compared to these, T. proximus and T. sauritus DO "look like garters". I could also add several other garters that look a lot more like these two, when comes to body type.

One final note: "ribbon snakes" used to be "ribbon snake".

[ConcinusMan]

OK, OK. I get your point. It's just that generally speaking, here in the USA, a ribbon snake has a different looking head, a longer, thinner body, very distict and solid stripes etc., than a garter does.

Ribbon snakes of the U.S:

"The ribbon snake is a very slender, striped snake, similar in appearance to the garter snake (http://www.umass.edu/nrec/snake_pit/pages/cgarter.html) but with a much longer tail. Tail length for the ribbon snake generally accounts for one third or more of total body length."

You see, there it is again. Distinction from garter snakes. And the appearance? Well, it's just different from what we call a garter snake. Almost "whip like" in comparison and always very well defined stripes. Long, gradually tapering and flowing. Just like a ribbon, but nothing like a garter belt. They are called "garter" or "ribbon" snakes for a reason. One looks more like a garter belt, one looks more like a ribbon. Later, in the western US, people encountered striped (or not) snakes that were even more tapered or thin and long. They called them "whip" snakes!

http://sensationalserpents.files.wordpress.com/2007/04/westernribbon.jpg?w=400&h=251

[Stefan-A]

OK, OK. I get your point. It's just that generally speaking, here in the USA, a ribbon snake has a different looking head, a longer, thinner body, very distict and solid stripes etc., than a garter does.
Unfortunately(?), their range doesn't end at the border. As for different body type, you have sirtalis sirtalis "Florida Blue", elegans vagrans and for example scaliger at the other end of the spectrum. Different head shape: ordinoides, butleri, rufipunctatus, brachystoma and scaliger again. Distinct, solid stripes I've seen in elegans, cyrtopsis, atratus, sirtalis annectens and pulchrilatus.


Ribbon snakes of the U.S:

"The ribbon snake is a very slender, striped snake, similar in appearance to the garter snake (http://www.umass.edu/nrec/snake_pit/pages/cgarter.html) but with a much longer tail. Tail length for the ribbon snake generally accounts for one third or more of total body length."

You see, there it is again. Distinction from garter snakes. And the appearance? Well, it's just different from what we call a garter snake. Almost "whip like" in comparison and always very well defined stripes.

http://sensationalserpents.files.wordpress.com/2007/04/westernribbon.jpg?w=400&h=251http://koti.mbnet.fi/thamnoph/photos/snakes10/gartnoribb.jpg

There it isn't.


edit: The link in your text leads to a page on the COMMON garter snake, in other words T. sirtalis.

[ConcinusMan]

Oh yeah. We could argue.. no wait... debate for the rest of our lives and have a great time doing so!

Nice snake on the cover. Looks like a T. ordinoides to me. Or is it? (just kidding, I'm 100% sure it is)

Forget the link. The link was unintended. It was the text I intended to copy. It leads to "common garter snake" for obvious reasons. Don't get me started on the argument that a T. ordinoides is also a "common" garter snake, as is T. Radix.:p All garter snakes are common within their range, and garter snakes in general are found in nearly every state in the USA.

If it's any kind of garter snake. Radix, ordinoides, elegans, doesn't matter. It's a garter and they are common.

The snake originally shown in this thread however, is definitely NOT a garter snake.:cool:

[Stefan-A]

Forget the link. The link was unintended. It was the text I intended to copy. It leads to "common garter snake" for obvious reasons.
The reason why I brought it up, is that it brings a completely different context to the text you quoted. It highlighted differences between the "ribbon snake" and Thamnophis sirtalis, not differences between "the ribbon snake" and the rest of the genus.


All garter snakes are common within their range, and garter snakes in general are found in nearly every state in the USA.

If it's any kind of garter snake. Radix, ordinoides, elegans, doesn't matter. It's a garter and they are common.
You really shouldn't make statements like that.

[ConcinusMan]

Why not? You really think any one of the three is any less common than the other? (*giggle*) :D

[Stefan-A]

Why not? You really think any one of the three is any less common than the other? (*giggle*) :D
Last time I counted Thamnophis taxa, there were 76 of them. IIRC. Not three.

Many populations are locally threatened, declining or extinct.