Not good

[gregmonsta]

I just had Sky out ... she feels very weak and she suddenly opened her mouth and mucus came out. She's struggling to breathe :(. She's acting almost exactly the way that Clint did before we had her put down. The only thing I can think now is that Clint was ill with something else in the first place (as opposed to the crushed ribs being the problem) and that whatever that was infected Sky and this is now the result.
I don't know what I can do now other that get up first thing and try to get a vet involved if possible.

[BUSHSNAKE]

that sucks hardcore!

[Stefan-A]

Damn it. :(

[Quibble]

oh no, poor sky. maybe its a common respiratory infection? I hope she gets better!

[guidofatherof5]

We are praying for all of you during this tough time.
Hang in there Sky.

[gregmonsta]

This is bloody horrible!!! I know she's been acting weird these last few days but I just attributed that to her being pregnant. I don't think this is a respiratory infection as I no longer think she's pregnant. Clint felt bloated at the end. It can't be parasites ... she was tested in January ... This smacks of something bacterial.

What's worse is this means the boys are potentially in jepoardy too. Spazz was with her for about a month and if he picked sth up ....

I'm loosing it here.

[guidofatherof5]

Hang in there buddy. We're all with you. Keep focused.

[Stefan-A]

I really hate to bring this up, but I am a cynical *******: If it really starts looking like she's minutes away from death, I'd consider an emergency caesarian section to salvage what I could.

[MasSalvaje]

That is horrible! Do you think she has any little ones in good shape? I would go with Stefan's suggestion, the only problem is if it happens to be bacterial it could have already passed to the babies.

-Thomas

[guidofatherof5]

I really hate to bring this up, but I am a cynical *******: If it really starts looking like she's minutes away from death, I'd consider an emergency caesarian section to salvage what I could.

Not cynical at all. A legit suggestion to a friend.:)

[gregmonsta]

I just don't know, she's not very responsive to touch at all right now. The last time I handled her was 9 days ago and she was fine then.
I don't know if I could cope with doing an emergency caesarian.
Doing a post mortem on Xena was bad enough.

[dannyj]

bloody hell mate just mailed you on rfuk before catching up with this

can you not get her to an emergancy vets?

[guidofatherof5]

I just don't know, she's not very responsive to touch at all right now. The last time I handled her was 9 days ago and she was fine then.
I don't know if I could cope with doing an emergency caesarian.
Doing a post mortem on Xena was bad enough.

If there's any chance at babies still being alive it may come to that Buddy but it's your call. You're there and she's your girl. You do what you think you should do.

[Stefan-A]

I just don't know, she's not very responsive to touch at all right now. The last time I handled her was 9 days ago and she was fine then.
I don't know if I could cope with doing an emergency caesarian.
Doing a post mortem on Xena was bad enough.
That's why I called myself a cynical *******. I know I'd be capable of doing it simply on the grounds that the math makes sense.

[bkhuff1s]

Yeah I'd have a hard time doing it myself...

[gregmonsta]

I've got no other option than to leave it to the rp vet tomorrow. I'll post up as soon as I get back.

[Stefan-A]

Good luck!

[drache]

oh no no no
I am so sorry to be reading this
this is terrible news

[prattypus]

godspeed.

[ConcinusMan]

I really hate to bring this up, but I am a cynical *******: If it really starts looking like she's minutes away from death, I'd consider an emergency caesarian section to salvage what I could.


I agree^^^ If all the 'salvage' dies, nothing is lost. If you don't try to salvage, there's nothing to gain. IF only one 'salvage' neonate lives, there is nothing but gain.

Still, a purely personal choice by the only available 'surgeon'.

[it does sound like mom had respiratory infection]

Too damp; too cool; poor air circulation; anything that might have contributed?

[infernalis]

So sorry Greg, I hope this gets better for you.

[ConcinusMan]

So sorry. Made a booboo.:D:D:D

[gregmonsta]

I agree^^^ If all the 'salvage' dies, nothing is lost. If you don't try to salvage, there's nothing to gain. IF only one 'salvage' neonate lives, there is nothing but gain.

Still, a purely personal choice by the only available 'surgeon'.

[it does sound like mom had respiratory infection]

Too damp; too cool; poor air circulation; anything that might have contributed?

All the conditions are optimal although, when I found her like this it was because I had to change the water and she was squashed next to the waterbowl and felt cold. I'm still convinced this is a bacterial problem, something that has been incubating. Clint and Sky shared the same viv .... and so did Xena .... considering Xena died, then clint had to be put down .... and now this (clean parasite checks throughout this) a bacterial problem is all I can think of.

My new problem is ..... there's a convention of exotic vet specialists in England .... I can't get her seen before Monday evening :mad:.
The ordinary vet at the local practice is currently trying to raise my usual vet on the phone to get some advice/consider if she could give an examination a go.

[Stefan-A]

A Swedish proverb comes to mind; En olycka kommer sällan ensam.
Translation: "An accident (or misfortune) rarely comes alone." Meaning that if something goes wrong, usually more things go wrong at about the same time.

"Funny" how there's always something going on with those damn vets. Mine was on maternity leave when I needed a vet.

[ConcinusMan]

Could be bacterial or something else?...

Once again, a "rare" but usually fatal fungal infection becomes not-so-rare under the right conditions:
"Cryptococcus gatti a very deadly fungus which tends to settle in human lungs and kill them has been discovered in the Northwest of the US."
http://www.allvoices.com/contributed-news/5668659-deadly-lung-fungus-hits-us-northwest-infected-people-dead


Just sayin' it could be fungal, bacterial, combo? who knows with the snakes.


... "damn vets. Mine was on maternity leave when I needed a vet."

If I was grasping at straws, I would say your vet was gravid? (jk following)

Oh no, Stefan, don't tell me you determined that another of your snakes is qualified as it's own veterinarian.:eek: Your gravid snake passed the medical board exams and everything? I guess it's ok then.:cool:

[gregmonsta]

She's now on Baytril to combat infection/possible septicemia until Simon can see her on Monday evening.

[guidofatherof5]

Glad to see a step in the positive direction. Hang in there Sky!

[infernalis]

Hurry up and get here monday.....

[BUSHSNAKE]

got my fingers and toes crossed for you

[jitami]

Damn, Greg, I'm so sorry to hear Sky's in rough shape. You'll both be in my thoughts and prayers. Hang in there big girl...

[dannyj]

cant imagine how your feeling buddy,

Hope she is ok till she can be seen monday

fingers crossed for you

[Quibble]

Poor sky, keep warm and toasty! Good luck Greg.

[gregmonsta]

RIP Sky :(

[Stefan-A]

Really sorry to hear that, Greg. :(

[gregmonsta]

Cheers Stefan, this sucks big time. She's in the fridge awaiting a post mortem now.

[drache]

oh Greg
I am so sorry to hear this
it's really awful to loose her like this

[gregmonsta]

Thanks Rhea, I just hope they'll find the reason for this.

[Sooty]

Hey greg ,im really sorry to hear such sad news today for you! a big hug for you,mellx

[drache]

yeah
and above all - that your other snakes will not be affected

[guidofatherof5]

Greg, I'm very sorry to hear this news. RIP Sky.
Our thoughts and prayers are with you.

[MasSalvaje]

Sorry to hear that Greg. I hope they can find out what it was.

-Thomas

[ssssnakeluvr]

Very sorry Greg! hope you find out what was wrong with her! :(

[bkhuff1s]

Sorry for your loss

[Snakers]

man im real sorry to hear about it goodluck with your other snakes

[infernalis]

RIP Sky :(


Sincere condolences Greg. That just plain sucks.

[Quibble]

Poor Sky, Im sorry Greg. I hope you find out what it was.

[gregmonsta]

Fingers crossed I'll get at least some opinions from my rep vet tomorrow evening. I've got confidence in him. He's written several books - http://www.amazon.co.uk/Veterinary-Nursing-Exotic-Simon-Girling/dp/1405107472
and was a chief editor of this - http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/0905214757/ref=pd_lpo_k2_dp_sr_2?pf_rd_p=103612307&pf_rd_s=lpo-top-stripe&pf_rd_t=201&pf_rd_i=1405107472&pf_rd_m=A3P5ROKL5A1OLE&pf_rd_r=0567KSQHM6KDBPZ905J0

[indigoman]

Hope the vet can give you some answers , I'm so sorry to hear the news.

[dannyj]

bud so sorry hear this really am,

keep your chin up, hopefully vet will be able give you some results soon.

So was she infact pregnant?

speak soon bud - take care

[Snaky]

First thing I read after coming back from the egsa meeting. So sad to hear Greg:(

[ConcinusMan]

Not sky. Must be another snake.:(

[jitami]

:(:(:(

So very sorry, Greg... RIP Sky, you were much loved...

[gregmonsta]

Nothing to report yet. I haven't had a call from the vet. I hate waiting!!!

[gregmonsta]

It might be totally unrelated, it might just be coincidence .... but J regurgitated last night. So, that's a little bag of half-digested pinky going to the vets today to contribute to my stress levels and shrinking bank balance.

[Stefan-A]

Terrific.

[gregmonsta]

Terrific.

Absolutely spiffing, old chap. Simply marvellous.

[ConcinusMan]

Damn. That's bad news indeed. I thought she might have looked a little "too big" but I shrugged it off.

[gregmonsta]

Update - she was gravid. Approx 30 babies. Body condition was very good. Liver showed onset of septicemia. Stomach showed no sign of parasites and none of the signs of cryptosporidia.
Samples are off to the histopathologist. Possible suspects - entemoameboa (sth to that effect) or bacteria (a form of salmonella a possible culprit).

[Stefan-A]

That's something, at least.

[gregmonsta]

That's something, at least.

True mate, it's still a messy situation but it's good to get an idea of the problem. Fingers crossed the uphill battle I'm facing has a low gradient.

[guidofatherof5]

True mate, it's still a messy situation but it's good to get an idea of the problem. Fingers crossed the uphill battle I'm facing has a low gradient.

Once again, sorry for your loss. Sky was a beautiful girl.

Are there any precautions for your other snakes your Vet. suggested?

[gregmonsta]

Nothing I hadn't already put in place. The boys have been quaranteened in seperate tubs. They'll be prioritised with testing/treatment. Then I'll be checking all the other slithery things that haven't been in direct contact via Spazz.

[charles parenteau]

Sorry about your loss Greg!!

[gregmonsta]

As of this afternoon the boys will be under full quaranteen. All seperated with slightly elevated temps added to the mix . Desperately waiting for further results. It's going to be a long week.
On another note, yesterday I observed Spazz doing some rapid jaw flexing. This was followed by a drop of blood at the side of his mouth. This was 'Clint' behaviour (which had been attributed to her crushed ribs at the top of the tracheal lung/heart area).
I'm now 100% certain that this entire situation stems from her.
This means that whatever it is was present for 1.5 years in her case which leads me to think that it was something that was kept at bay during this time thanks to good hygene practice. When we had her put down last year the vet concurred that the broken ribs were the cause of her occaisionally weird behaviour.
Sky spent only a few months in Clints company and it is worth considering that the energy required for the pregnancy allowed whatever it is to take over and lead to a fatal result where her body must have been coping prior to this. It's also worth thinking about how brumation can allow certain ailments to magnify.

Deathtoll by unknown ailment so far is therefore = 2 Florida blue females and approx 30 babies.

J and Spazz have both exhibited suspect behaviour now.

[guidofatherof5]

I hope this whole situation(deaths) is behind you.
Keep us posted especially any treatments ordered by the Vet.

[gregmonsta]

Crossing fingers, toes, legs and arms.

[drache]

oh Greg - I sure hope J and Spazz won't fall victim to whatever it is

[bkhuff1s]

That's all horrible...

[ConcinusMan]

I don't suppose anyone opened her up? I mean, I've seen fairly well-developed babies die inside before. Sometimes, they don't pass. They sit in there and cause swelling due to decomp gases, until finally, the female gets septic and just up and dies.

[gregmonsta]

I don't suppose anyone opened her up? I mean, I've seen fairly well-developed babies die inside before. Sometimes, they don't pass. They sit in there and cause swelling due to decomp gases, until finally, the female gets septic and just up and dies.

:rolleyes: that's what a post mortem is, isn't it? I would imagine Simon would have noticed if the cause had been the babies - at any rate a bacterial infection could have caused the death of the offspring but we won't know for sure. Considering the two males that have exhibited possible symptoms it will prove to be either bacterial or amoebal.

[prattypus]

This whole scenario sucks major. I just hope you can get to the bottom of this. Over here, we call the examination afterward an autopsy- I think post mortem just refers to the time frame- after the passing.

[gregmonsta]

Post mortem, autopsy and necropsy are all used here. ;) I think 'a/the post mortem', ie treating it as a noun is the equivalent and not as 'post mortem' which on it's own qualifies as a time tag. :rolleyes:but that's just the English teacher in me :p

[ConcinusMan]

"autopsy" only applies to people.;) necropsy if it's anything but a human. "Post mortem examination" is just that, and an autopsy is just a "Post mortem examination" without lab testing.

But hey, if a snake could get medical training to perform this examination of sky, then it becomes an autopsy again.

God, I know way too much.

[infernalis]

God, I know way too much.


I used to think that way once, didn't make many friends
until I came back down to earth and realized that it just wasn't so.....

[ConcinusMan]

That's not what I meant. I meant I know way too much about dead stuff, gross stuff. Stuff that the average citizen really shouldn't be too familiar with.;)

For example, the sickening sweet smell of a very ripe dead human being. People shouldn't know what that's like. I am way too familar with it. It's not something you can forget.

OK, that's enough of that talk. We just lost beloved sky.:(

[gregmonsta]

Vet's take on the histopathology - She was very healthy, no signs of any of the known bacterial, amoebal, viral infections. The cause of death came from the stress of pregnancy. Being such a long pregnancy the well-developed young essentially caused a change in the body and some natural bacteria from her gut made it into her bloodstream. This made it to the heart and caused the formation of a bacterial cyst in the ventricle.
As far as he can see I have no reason to panic about the rest of my collection. 'J's vomit can be put down to his usually random feeding pattern and maybe the pinky at the last feed was simply too big a meal for him. Spazz's jaw flexing (my source of panic) can also be put down to normal behaviour for now.
It pays to be cautious but my panic was definately justified, the potential outcomes that were running through my mind were just not nice at all (it was hard not to be pessimistic).
Current plan of action - return to normal, keep a close eye on the boys for the next two weeks. If there are any signs of someone having problems they'll be whisked off immediately for blood tests.
All in all, I'm a happier man today. ..... :)

[drache]

whew!

[reptileparadise]

It still sucks, but thank god its ´just a case of bad luck`

[gregmonsta]

Definately, today's job will be turning the boys viv into a home again .... as opposed to a kitchen towel/carboard prison.

[guidofatherof5]

Glad to hear things will be getting more back to normal.

[prattypus]

I couldn't imagine going through that- at least you have some closure now.

[Stefan-A]

Vet's take on the histopathology - She was very healthy, no signs of any of the known bacterial, amoebal, viral infections. The cause of death came from the stress of pregnancy. Being such a long pregnancy the well-developed young essentially caused a change in the body and some natural bacteria from her gut made it into her bloodstream. This made it to the heart and caused the formation of a bacterial cyst in the ventricle.
As far as he can see I have no reason to panic about the rest of my collection. 'J's vomit can be put down to his usually random feeding pattern and maybe the pinky at the last feed was simply too big a meal for him. Spazz's jaw flexing (my source of panic) can also be put down to normal behaviour for now.
It pays to be cautious but my panic was definately justified, the potential outcomes that were running through my mind were just not nice at all (it was hard not to be pessimistic).
Current plan of action - return to normal, keep a close eye on the boys for the next two weeks. If there are any signs of someone having problems they'll be whisked off immediately for blood tests.
All in all, I'm a happier man today. ..... :)
Good news. :)

[infernalis]

Great to hear Greg, hope it's all behind you now.

[ConcinusMan]

Great news! It's always good to know the cause, especially since it was nothing you did or could have done, and the rest of your collection is as safe as it ever was.

[gregmonsta]

Thanks everybody, for your support during this troubled period.

Currently the boys are doing their best to act 'normal' in their refurbished enclosure. Some of their furnishings were discarded when I decided which items were feasible to bleach to smitherines. They seem to know their home but it's not as they knew it .... yet.

Another heart-warming moment today was re-furbishing the female enclosure and watching an 'I'm confused' neck wriggle from Suzy as her living quarters suddenly became palacial. :D

I still miss Sky like crazy but I have to say an occupied viv will always be better than an empty one.

[guidofatherof5]

Thanks everybody, for your support during this troubled period.

Currently the boys are doing their best to act 'normal' in their refurbished enclosure. Some of their furnishings were discarded when I decided which items were feasible to bleach to smitherines. They seem to know their home but it's not as they knew it .... yet.

Another heart-warming moment today was re-furbishing the female enclosure and watching an 'I'm confused' neck wriggle from Suzy as her living quarters suddenly became palacial. :D

I still miss Sky like crazy but I have to say an occupied viv will always be better than an empty one.

Your Suzy isn't alone. When I put mine on paper towels for fecal inspections they always give me the strangest looks. I swear some of them go pout in a corner.
Some don't want to be handled. It always takes them a day or so to get back to normal once I put things back the way they should be.

[ConcinusMan]

Same here. My snakes don't like it one bit ^^^ They do seem to pout.

Just to let you know, I lost my last beloved female concinnus in the same manner. She was huge, she was old. (20!) She went through a stressful "pregnancy" and finally gave birth to about 15 decomposed, yet fully developed offspring. She passed away about 3 days later.

I know how it feels. I am still not completely over it. I still get "misty" when I think about her. She died in the early 2000's.

This picture doesn't help. It looks exactly like her:

http://www.californiaherps.com/noncal/northwest/nwsnakes/imth/xtsconcinnussr05head.jpg