"Anery" Concinnus Arrived!

[aSnakeLovinBabe]

Boy, these things are just too cool! They are about 100 times more awesome in person! thank you so much ConcinnusMan! I'm not really sure what is going on with them... they are so blue/green. Axanthic? Anery? Green phase? what do you call it? For now I'm gonna go with green phase, but if I had to choose between anery and axanthic, I'd choose axanthic.

Here's the female:
http://i286.photobucket.com/albums/ll86/aSnakeLovinBabe/Snakes/Garters/5791028.jpg

http://i286.photobucket.com/albums/ll86/aSnakeLovinBabe/Snakes/Garters/5791031.jpg

http://i286.photobucket.com/albums/ll86/aSnakeLovinBabe/Snakes/Garters/5791032.jpg

http://i286.photobucket.com/albums/ll86/aSnakeLovinBabe/Snakes/Garters/5791035.jpg

And the male:
http://i286.photobucket.com/albums/ll86/aSnakeLovinBabe/Snakes/Garters/5791037.jpg

http://i286.photobucket.com/albums/ll86/aSnakeLovinBabe/Snakes/Garters/5791038.jpg

[aSnakeLovinBabe]

Here's my normal red female
http://i286.photobucket.com/albums/ll86/aSnakeLovinBabe/Snakes/Garters/5791023.jpg

http://i286.photobucket.com/albums/ll86/aSnakeLovinBabe/Snakes/Garters/5791025.jpg

And here they are together for comparison
http://i286.photobucket.com/albums/ll86/aSnakeLovinBabe/Snakes/Garters/5791039.jpg

http://i286.photobucket.com/albums/ll86/aSnakeLovinBabe/Snakes/Garters/5791041.jpg

http://i286.photobucket.com/albums/ll86/aSnakeLovinBabe/Snakes/Garters/5791042.jpg

http://i286.photobucket.com/albums/ll86/aSnakeLovinBabe/Snakes/Garters/5791045.jpg

[aSnakeLovinBabe]

http://i286.photobucket.com/albums/ll86/aSnakeLovinBabe/Snakes/Garters/5791052.jpg

http://i286.photobucket.com/albums/ll86/aSnakeLovinBabe/Snakes/Garters/5791053.jpg

http://i286.photobucket.com/albums/ll86/aSnakeLovinBabe/Snakes/Garters/5791057.jpg

Here's a different looking female I received in a trade tuesday
http://i286.photobucket.com/albums/ll86/aSnakeLovinBabe/Snakes/Garters/5791016.jpg

http://i286.photobucket.com/albums/ll86/aSnakeLovinBabe/Snakes/Garters/5791018.jpg

And in that trade I also received this neat pickeringii... blue and red together!

http://i286.photobucket.com/albums/ll86/aSnakeLovinBabe/Snakes/Garters/5791003.jpg

[aSnakeLovinBabe]

http://i286.photobucket.com/albums/ll86/aSnakeLovinBabe/Snakes/Garters/5791006.jpg

http://i286.photobucket.com/albums/ll86/aSnakeLovinBabe/Snakes/Garters/5791007.jpg

[prattypus]

Wow- those are some nice new additions- that one must've seen a ghost, because she's so pale.

[BUSHSNAKE]

Awesome Shannon, do you think youll get any pairings this year....I dont think the pickeringii is pickeringii, pickeringii has more reduced dorsal stripe....whatchathink?

[ConcinusMan]

Her blue w/red pickeringii is a perfectly normal puget for some locales. Nothing strange about it. As far as the other one with red goes, I don't think there's even a trace of concinnus in that one. If anything, it's a puget or mostly puget. Get's even more complicated due to the fact that wild concinnus breed with fitchii in very limited intergrade zones, some puget's are red-spotted, and they too breed with fitchii in the wild. Not to mention all the snakes I've seen advertised as "concinnus" when they in fact, are not. When you've seen as many examples of pure wild concinnus as I have, it's easy to spot when something is "off". Laterally striped concinnus do exist (a bit rare) in the wild but if a concinnus has lateral stripes AND something else doesn't fit, it's a hybrid or not concinnus. Could be that neither of those snakes is pure anything, or that they are both just pugets, or one is a puget the other is... There's no real way to tell but we can rule out pure concinnus.

Wow shannon, I need a decent camera. I just can't get the true color and your photos show the difference from the norm, dramatically, as it is. But you see what I mean, why I can't say they're anery? I mean, it's NOT black and white. Also, there's some kind of color there in the cheeks and in the spots. Not exactly yellow, not exactly red or orange.

I don't think I like "green phase" but I don't have any better ideas at the moment. Whatever we call it, circumstantial evidence suggests it's a dominant gene so we can easily tell them apart from normals in the area. If it is dominant we'll have to prove that out and we'll need to prove which ones are het and which ones aren't. That could be a challenge and will take time. We have a worthy project for the next 5 years I would say.

[ssssnakeluvr]

Oregon green spotted garters???? :cool:

[bkhuff1s]

Nice

[ConcinusMan]

Dayglow? greenghost? stonewash? who knows. You could use any of those terms. I'm more interested in what is going on genetically and what is going on with the pigments. Only one pigment missing? two? which pigments are affected? is it a dominant gene? A million questions. Maybe they are anery and only red is missing, leaving the weird green color(yellow and blue?) a chance to come through. After all, her normal has that same glow, in the stripe, as many normals do around here too.

It's not exactly green. More like "aqua". Whatever it is...

I've simply resorted to calling them my "Weird" concinnus. I'm glad there's something new now that we can actually call a morph.(I don't think high black or high red qualifies as a morph) Concinnus seem to be lacking in that area. There's no real, unusual morphs being bred. Until now.

[ConcinusMan]

That female "weird concinnus" was in my winning entry for the March photo contest. Good picture but I couldn't get the true color to come through like Shannon did. BTW, Somebody :rolleyes: forgot to put her on the portal page, SHANNON.

[aSnakeLovinBabe]

Haha I can't do that! I have no idea how to even go about that!!!! :o

[Spankenstyne]

Wow, loving all the blue going on there. Beautiful animals and great shots. Shannon you take fantastic pictures.

Something to keep in mind when it comes to great pictures, it has much more to do with the skill of the photographer than the equipment. Think of how much more advanced the worst cameras are compared to what an Ansel Adams was using for example. People can manage to take horrible pictures with even the best equipment out now as well..
I also fall into the trap of thinking I need better cameras until someone kindly pointed out how many great photogs' pictures have been taken historically without the technology we have today & I realize I just need to get better lol.

[snakeman]

These pics definitely make a difference.I am liking these now!

[ConcinusMan]

Yeah. Then there's people like me that used to take great pics until he gave up the film and went digital. It's been a nightmare ever since. Skill, ptttt! Horse pucky. I got a crappy camera, plain and simple. Doesn't matter what I do. Took me about 20 shots to get that one good one in the march photo contest and it still isn't right. The true color of the snake just doesn't happen. I've used my aunt's $500 nikon digital and got great shots, perfect. I just can't do it with the camera I have, I've tried everything. I certainly can't force it to capture the right color.

So what do you think guys? do they look axanthic? I mean, does it look like the mutation affects xanthophores while leaving green and blue to show? If you think about it, red and yellow are all that is missing. At least it appears that way to me.

I also think it must be a dominant gene because there are so many of those snakes (confined to a limited area or just that population as far as I know) There are also a few normals among them. Although they are quite light in the red/orange department, I still would call them normal. I'd say about 1 in 5 looked normal in that location. Go just outside the confined suitable habitat where these snakes were found, and all you will see is normals.

[Jeff B]

I would say its definately safe to call it a morph, just based on its dramatic variance to the "normal wild type", however the genetic inheritance pattern and predictability will still need to be characterized as already stated.
So, Axanthins are typically known to produce yellows, and Erythrins produce reds, however there can be some overlap as to exactly which chromophores and in what ratios ect. that cause the "look" of the color we see. Without knowing precisely the chemical answers to those details, you can make a general educated guess, or characterization based on what you see changing from the normal wild type, and some of that "call" should be based on what is the base color of the normal wild type.
Now if these were "yellow" spotted garters that were now a blue/green and black morph then Axanthic would argueably be the most appropriet nomenclature.
Since they are "red spotted" garters though, perhaps it makes more sence to call them Anerythristic.
However, to add to the confusion, the color of the spots is more typically an orange rather than stark red, a combination of red and yellow with variations of the amounts leaning towards more red or more yellow even in the normal wild type.
It would be nice if a name would be established though,so we all know what snake you are refering to, regardless of; if and what genetic inheritance patterns prove out.

[ConcinusMan]

That's pretty much what I was thinking is that the normal orange coloring is actually two different colors but I've been looking around the web and even if it is yellow and red as opposed to just red missing, they would still be considered anerythristic. So, I went from calling them anery from the start, to calling them hypoerythristic since there was some color going on there, now were back to what I called them in the first place. Anerythristic. But...

Here's a pic of an anerythristic concinnus and it sure doesn't look like these guys. In comparison it looks like these are missing yellow as well as red/orange. This anery on the right has plenty of yellow:

(but then again, normal snakes from around my parts usually have more blue/green than most)

http://i81.photobucket.com/albums/j201/MikeMikeUxWxC/102_0988.jpg

[gregmonsta]

Fantastic :D

[Jeff B]

My oppinion is definately leaning towards anery making the most discriptive sense, when I look at that snake I think "anery". By the way with Shannon's awesome camera skills that snake is definately bad *** good looking. Would love to have one of them and an albino right now, I would be thinking about doing a little dance to make a "rocky mountain snowstorm":D

[Spankenstyne]

I can't stop looking at these pictures.
I gotta say I lean towards anery as well, or at least some variation of.

[Snaky]

Looks exactly like me male, here's a picture of him:
http://lh5.ggpht.com/_KI7rJowg1DE/S3gzMsPi7LI/AAAAAAAAB-Q/CszozSaw-38/s144/DSC_0181_klein.JPG

I truly like him and I'm the only one I know in Europe having 'anery concinnus'. I saved some females from a nest of previous year and next year I'll try to breed them again with the male. I hope I'll see the thread appear :)

They look great, very nice additions! :)

[charles parenteau]

wow amazing garter snake!!!Shannon your photos are awesome...

[ConcinusMan]

My oppinion is definately leaning towards anery making the most discriptive sense, when I look at that snake I think "anery". By the way with Shannon's awesome camera skills that snake is definately bad *** good looking. Would love to have one of them and an albino right now, I would be thinking about doing a little dance to make a "rocky mountain snowstorm":D

I guess I'm as green as they come since I didn't understand any of that last sentence. First off, why would you only want one instead of a pair? second, there are no albino concinnus (prove me wrong) and I don't even know what to say about the snow dance.

[drui9201]

He wants an Anery & Albino pair of Concinnus to breed and make snow Concinnus.

[Scaley.Jade]

grrrr you still make me jealous

[Quibble]

Wow, great pics Shannon!
Genetics absolutely fascinate me, and this is one subject I can truly obsess over.

I would consider them anery because of the fact that they sort of look 'green'. It takes some form of yellow to do that, so there must be some there. I think if they were axanthic they would look more blue/silver instead of blue/green. Does anyone consider my opinion valid?

If i had a good photo editing program, i would take a pic of a normal concinnus, once filtering out red, and once filtering out yellow and seeing which pic looked closest to the odd ones. However im still not sure it would be a geneticaly appropriate guess.

[BUSHSNAKE]

hey Shannon love the pickeringii, you need a mate for it just like it!

[aSnakeLovinBabe]

Haha yea I DO need a mate just like it! She's like a knockoff infernalis :D

My problem with all of this is that I don't want to call it anything definitve when in fact there is so much overlapping that goes on between red and yellow pigments. Red pigments, erythrophores...are actually a subtype of xanthophores. So actually an axanthic animal can lack more than just yellow. There are also orange colors that are considered yellow xanthophores, and there are other orange colors that are considered erythrophores. But erythrophores ARE xanthophores. Which is why apparently they'd like to call yellow xanthophores "luteophores" as you can see here...

this is why it's not just as simple as "well if they lack red they are anery, and if they lack yellow they are axanthic". It's just a lot more complicated than that and really you DON'T know unless you could see what's going on at the cellular level.

warning, may cause headaches! :eek:


Xanthophores - contain two major pigment bodies the pterinosomes containing pteridines and vesicles that contain fats with stored carotenoids. Another class of organelle may exist in which the pteridines are converted to drosopterins and some people have suggested the name drosopterinosome. However, since drosopterins are made from pteridines, this may be a bit of a splitter attitude, and really may not be valid. But it cannot be denied that yellow pteridine rich cells occur within microns of orange or red drosopterin rich cells, so there may be something to the separation. At any rate, xanthophores can be divided into at least two subtypes.




Yellow xanthophores - contain organelles called pterinosomes that are pterinidine rich and range from creamy yellow to orange. Since these cells are yellow to yellow orange and the term xanthophore can apply to the red xanthophores as well, there is a good argument to refer to this subtype as luteophores, but that term has yet to catch on.



Red xanthophores (erythrophores) - pterinosomes (drosopterinosomes) are rich in drosopterins which range from orange to red and even violet. These cells are more easily seen on histology than their yellow counterparts and can be seen in the pictures at the top of this page.


Hypoerythrism /Hypoerythristic - reduction in the amount of darker orange to red pigments so that the appearance of this color is largely absent except for traces or appears "washed out."

Anerythrism /Anerythristic - lack of production of pigments in the darker orange to red range.

Axanthism /Axanthic - lack of yellow and lighter orange pigments, depending on the point in the pigment cascade, this mutation can also cause corresponding anerythrism since erythric pigments (drosopterins) appear to come from the more yellow pteridines biochemically.

Hypoxanthism / Hypoxanthic - reduction int he amount of yellow or lighter orange pigments so that the appearance of this color is only found in trace amounts or appears "washed out." This may also result in hypoerythrism since the red pigments appear to be made from the yellow pteridines.



Also while we are at it... lets think about what we see called "anerythristic" plains garter snakes. That term has just got to be wrong. You take away red/orange pigments from a plains garter snake and you get a solid black animal with a stripe? They are at the very least, melanistic! If you removed some color from a plains garter snake, you'd end up with a gray washed out snake, but he'd still have a pattern and he wouldn't suddenly end up with 10x the amount of black on his body as a normal counterpart. A melanistic animal does not have to lack a pattern/ stripes. It just needs to have a much higher distribution of black pigment. Which, these snakes do. Even their belly and iris of their eyes is solid jet black, just like other melanistic snakes but NOT like other anerythristic snakes, which have more of a silver iris and still have relatively normal looking bellies, and patterns. Maybe they are melanistic AND anerythristic at the same time, but they are not plain anerythristic. There's more going on than that.

[ConcinusMan]

That's funny because I mentioned that the so-called axanthic plains looked melanistic to me. The reply was that he was referring to the genes affect of taking away yellow from snakes. Looks melanistic to me but what I understand, when it comes to breeding, the gene doesn't behave like you would expect from a melanistic gene.

Thanks for that post^^^ Sheds some light on the subject. Basically these could be axanthic or anerythristic but whichever is the case, the effect could the same when it comes to concinnus. Since even the normal snakes around NW Oregon appear very light looking orange, these "anery" snakes could be a case where the Xanthosphore cells are what is affected. If only Xanthosphores are involved in the production of the orange on a normal, the effect of this gene would be dramatic. If a different pigment is involved in say, a deep red concinnus, the effect would be insignificant. Either way, it's appropriate to call these anerythristic. Some breeders might not agree, especially it proves that the gene only affects Xanthosphores.



I think if they were axanthic they would look more blue/silver instead of blue/green. Does anyone consider my opinion valid?

If i had a good photo editing program, i would take a pic of a normal concinnus, once filtering out red, and once filtering out yellow and seeing which pic looked closest to the odd ones. However im still not sure it would be a geneticaly appropriate guess.

Your idea makes sense but when it comes to yellow, more than one type of pigment can produce what one could consider yellow so what if a snake had yellows produced by a combination of the two? We really don't know what's going on with the yellow in any concinnus since some individuals within a litter can have yellow stripes, some have that blue/green stripe. What I was thinking is if you take yellow away from the stripe, would it leave it looking blue-green? It could be that the gene only affects orange drosopterin cells and not red but that will take time and breeding to prove.

I'll do the photo editing and see what needs to be taken away to produce colors like these anery snakes. That is a good idea.

[ConcinusMan]

Is it theoretically possible to find out which cells dominate? I mean, if I took a scale off of the orange area of a normal from that location and took it to a lab, would they be able to determine which type of cell produces the orange? Not that I could afford it, just curious. Most, if not all of the orange concinnus in that area have a yellow stripe. Most if not all of these anery's have a blueish stripe. Coincidence? Hmm...

I'm leaning toward orange xanthosphores being the culprit in this case and in the case of that other anery I showed you, with a yellow stripe, red xanthospores are involved making that one anery, these axanthic, on a cellular level. That is assuming that genes can affect xanthosphores in a way that selectively removes red/orange and leaves yellow. This is so confusing.

Seems that axanthic and anerythristic can be one in the same so which term is used depends on the overall effect. If red is taken away from a normally red snake, anerthristic is used. If yellow is taken away, it's axanthic. But this involves orange so....???

Just when you think you understand...

[Jeff B]

I guess I'm as green as they come since I didn't understand any of that last sentence. First off, why would you only want one instead of a pair? second, there are no albino concinnus (prove me wrong) and I don't even know what to say about the snow dance.

What I meant.... and yes to my knowledge there aren't any albino concinnus available either which is why I said I would want one. But anyway what I meant was that if I had and anery concinnus and could then also aquire an albino concinnus (if one were to pop in somewhere from the wild) then I would try to create a snow concinnus.

[Jeff B]

The anery plains is a little complicated because it really shows characteristics of all three of the overly-simplified gene names; axanthic, anerythristic, and melanistic.
1. It does perhaps show melanistic charateristics, in that it does show increased black look, however that could be from an increase in melanin or a decrease in the other overlaying pigments (by the way it is not a solid black snake, and it does show pattern in grays)
2. It does demonstrate typical classical anerythristic traits in that it takes away the red-orange of the Nebraska albino when the snow is produced.
3. It does demonstate typical classical axanthic traits in that it takes away the yellows of the Iowa albino when the snow is produced.

The problem is that we have to put name on a gene and put it into a simple name group to be able to reference the animal with "said" gene, but the reality is that the gene could have multiple effects on a pathway and the final visual outcome and it may not not be "black or white", there is often a lot of gray area as to which group these genes fits into.

So I don't think anery is necessarily wrong, or needs to be changed, even if one of the other names may seem to be a better fit.
The important thing is that it is a single recessive gene, and it has been characterized what the power of that gene can do and that is has a predictable inheritance pattern, and that work has all been done by Scott Felzer, so lets just respect that fact.

[BUSHSNAKE]

i think all garter snows are albino melanistic crosses, look at the nebraska snow, looks similar to eastern snow. Melanistic eastern, anery plains, anery red sided are all the same morph....black with no yellow,orange or red pigment of any kind so call em what you want....melanistic,axanthic,anery all terms could apply

[MasSalvaje]

i think all garter snows are albino melanistic crosses, look at the nebraska snow, looks similar to eastern snow. Melanistic eastern, anery plains, anery red sided are all the same morph....black with no yellow,orange or red pigment of any kind so call em what you want....melanistic,axanthic,anery all terms could apply

Very true, these names are by name means air tight when it comes down to pure genetics but it is an easy way to help distinguish a morph from the normals and other morphs so it gives it more selling power and easier recognition, it is all about the marketing.

-Thomas

[ConcinusMan]

I suppose so. I do think it's appropriate to call these anery but perhaps "green phase" anery would be more descriptive.

I don't think any more selling is going to be happening until we can produce litters of these. In spite of sighting dozens of these, I really don't want more than 3 pairs taken, if we can manage with just those 6 snakes, that would be great. I can always "borrow" WC snakes later, to widen the gene pool if necessary.

[ssssnakeluvr]

What I meant.... and yes to my knowledge there aren't any albino concinnus available either which is why I said I would want one. But anyway what I meant was that if I had and anery concinnus and could then also aquire an albino concinnus (if one were to pop in somewhere from the wild) then I would try to create a snow concinnus.
there was one years ago...when I first checked out thamnophis.com....had a pic of one on there. no info on it tho

[ConcinusMan]

An albino is what I assume you are referring to. I heard that too, but nobody has produced a pic and certainly have not seen any for sale. Could have been a single WC I suppose but none have ever been recorded in the wild as far as I know. Anery's have been reported in the wild before, very rarely, just not like these, and not so many of them. Also, many snakes stated as being "concinnus" are not concinnus.

Also, if you notice, even these anery's have some other colors going on there. I think that producing a snow would be a very far long shot. Besides that, who cares? aren't there enough snows out there? they all look the same to me - ugly.

If anything, I think it would be very cool to produce one that is axanthic+amelanistic but retain the orange or red coloring and perhaps some of the blue, if that's possible. Now that would be cool.

[ConcinusMan]

i think all garter snows are albino melanistic crosses, look at the nebraska snow, looks similar to eastern snow. Melanistic eastern, anery plains, anery red sided are all the same morph....black with no yellow,orange or red pigment of any kind so call em what you want....melanistic,axanthic,anery all terms could apply

I agree the terms may apply but a nebraska snow or albino is not completely albino. They still retain the ability to produce pigments that Iowa albinos cannot. This is clearly seen. Amy has NO pigment whatsoever in the areas that would be dark on a normal. Nebraska's still have some pigment going on there and to me, would more properly be called hypomelanistic, not amelanistic. And all those morphs you mention are not the same thing even though they may look similar.

A iowa albino like my amy would only have to be axanthic as well, and she'd be a snow. In fact, she's het for axanthic albino (iowa snow) and "christmas" albino, AND nebraska albino as well! Some of her siblings and one of her parents were snows. Other siblings were nebraska's and christmas albinos! I bet I could breed her to a just axanthic male and have a pretty good chance of producing axanthics which are other than missing yellow, normal. She's het for at least 3 different recessive traits which is nice. Thanks again Don, for the great price for her. She has great morph breeding potential.

http://www.albinogartersnake.com/images/price_plains_axan.jpg

[BUSHSNAKE]

good luck with your plains garter snakes

[aSnakeLovinBabe]

A iowa albino like my amy would only have to be axanthic as well, and she'd be a snow

I have one of these... it's not an iowa snow though, the iowa snow is the black anery plains bred to iowa albino. The albino/axanthic is awesome, that's for sure. She's got all her pattern and even some blue! I've got a little axanthic male and and adult axanthic female as well. My 2 male anery's het Iowa/nebr. albinos are courting her! If they produce I will get axanthics and normals 100% het anery and poss. het for two albinos. Unless the female has unknown hets... this should be great fun! I like the axanthic morph because there is no playing around with "hets" for it, it either is axanthic, or a normal! No waiting an extra generation to produce them.

[Quibble]

If anything, I think it would be very cool to produce one that is axanthic+amelanistic but retain the orange or red coloring and perhaps some of the blue, if that's possible. Now that would be cool.

So, no yellow and no black. Just red and blue to finally make the purple thamnophis!:cool: lol

[ConcinusMan]

Well, not exactly. Orange spots/sides and bluing on the throat of an albino wouldn't exactly make it purple but I hear that an albino concinnus which is rumored to have existed, had lavender skin in the areas that would be black on a normal. Personally, I have doubts it ever existed due to the tendency for people to call a snake 'concinnus' when it's not, and lack of any pictures.


I have one of these... it's not an iowa snow though, the iowa snow is the black anery plains bred to iowa albino... Oh. Now I feel stupid.



I like the axanthic morph because there is no playing around with "hets" for it, it either is axanthic, or a normal! No waiting an extra generation to produce them.

At some point I was thinking that's what's going on with these "anery" concinnus since they are anything but few in number within their population. But from what I understand, there are still hets and homozygous, it's just that they look the same. Being het is enough to change the look.