Another litter!

[snakeman]

This one is crazy!I got snows,albinos,albino flames,melanistics,normal flame double hets, and normal double hets.A ton of them too.I did'nt even count.
http://www.thamnophis.com/thamphotos/data//500/rsz_dsc00171.jpg

[snakeman]

http://www.thamnophis.com/thamphotos/data//500/rsz_1dsc00172.jpg

[BUSHSNAKE]

sweat deal!

[ssssnakeluvr]

awesome!!!!

[guidofatherof5]

They look great!

[snakeman]

I wanted some mels too.That means my het albino flame male is actually a double het albino+melanistic flame.thanks guys!

[charles parenteau]

wow this is insane!!

[aSnakeLovinBabe]

Wow Tom! Congrats!!! :D

[prattypus]

That's like a Skittles commercial- taste the rainbow- congrats on all the additions!

[Jeff B]

Wow thats an awesome surprise, Tom. It will be interesting to see if any of the snows show or develope any orange from the flame, won't it Joe?:D

[aSnakeLovinBabe]

Wow thats an awesome surprise, Tom. It will be interesting to see if any of the snows show or develope any orange from the flame, won't it Joe?:D

Since a snow is melanistic and albino, and there is no trait such as anerythristic in there that removes red pigment, I would not be surprised by that happening at all. The albino may lighten it up enough to let it shine through.

[jitami]

Another nice litter! Congrats!!!

[Quibble]

Congrats! That is one AWESOME litter!
Apologies if I missed something - If the father is a flame doubble het, whats the mother?

[BUSHSNAKE]

Thats it Jeff....PUTEM UP!

[snakeman]

The mother was a snow.

[Jeff B]

Thats it Jeff....PUTEM UP!

Sorry Joe, looks like Tom beat us both to it huh, its not me you should be mad at, its all Toms fault, lol, I'm just stating the obvious, lol, but still love you too man,lol
I guess the real question Shannon is does the melanistic gene also take away red, rather than just add melanin, although not completely clear yet maybe, there is some slight argueable evidence for that in the """"""snow"""" or as some would prefer to call the melanistic albino.
So Tom, inquiring minds what to know.....do any of the snows show flame orange sides??????????????? Lets see some pics if so, you're killing us man.

[snakeman]

I really don't feel like holding on to them to find out.If you want them I will make a sweet deal!

[Scott F]

Congrats on a gr8 litter ! Will be interesting to see if the snows color up w/ any flame influence.

Scott

[BUSHSNAKE]

Hey Jeff Im not mad at anyone! I do think that both parents should be flames that are het snow to prove it or erythristic het snow. Both the flame and erythristic traits are dominant over the albino and melanistic so i do think its possible. Im not any closer to proven it then i was two years ago so i think ill do something else.

[Jeff B]

Joe I do think you are right that the best chance of flame showing thru on a snow offspring is if both parents are high end flames or erythristic both het for snow. I would agree that flame and ery have show to be dominant over or in relation to albino, although not on the same allele loci. Not sure I agree about flame and ery being dominant over melanistic though, it looks to me like melanistic has a generally dominating effect over flame and ery although maybe not 100% complete as demonstrated by the leopard (erythristic melanistic) that I just recently produced.

[snakeman]

Melanistic is dominant over flame.Somebody has already proved it.They esed to sell babies on kingsnake a while back.

[BUSHSNAKE]

I understand what your saying, i should of wrote the melanistic and albino are recessive to the flame and ery...i certainly dont think you could produce a snake that has both flame/ery and melanistic traits...sorry for that

[ConcinusMan]

I wanted some mels too.That means my het albino flame male is actually a double het albino+melanistic flame.thanks guys!

And you're sure about that? No other way this could happen? :rolleyes:

[Snakers]

all in one deal i see?

[ConcinusMan]

Let's not forget that some of these labels such as "flame" "snow" and even axanthic/anerythristic do not necessarily reflect what is happening on a biological/cellular level. Most garter breeders use these terms to describe the outward effect of the gene or linage. For example, if it appears anerythristic, it's anery, even though what is happening on a biological/genetic level may vary from species to species. In other words, what might be called anery from one species or ssp, might be called axanthic for another species. I hope you get what I'm saying. Personally, I'm not buying the label "anerythristic" or "axanthic" for some of the plains garters I've seen. They're downright melanistic to me. They have dark pigments where no normal snake would have.

I'm do not believe anyone proved that "flame" is dominant over "melanistic" simply because "flame" seems more of label to me. Might be dominant over whatever gene is involved to produce their "flames" but what if a truly axanthic snake was labeled "melanistic". What then? would it still dominate over "flame" ??? There is no rule that says a certain gene cannot have the effect of higher melanin production AND the effect of reduced or absent yellow/orange/red.

I suppose I could be taking this a bit far. One could take it so far as to call all domestic dogs "wolves". My intention here was to open up the narrow-mindedness of labeled genetic traits in snakes. Kudos to those breeders that use the terms to describe the effect of the gene, just like "brindle" in dogs can apply to any breed but involve completely different sets of genes depending on the breed. When it comes to snakes, I think it's important to provide backround breeding records with such labels. Back it up, don't just paste the label. Provide background and linage details. To me, if I was a serious breeder, that might make an animal worth far more, or far less.

Unfortunately, money/limited space is often a motivating factor that contributes to the confusion. Case in point:



I guess the real question Shannon has is... does the melanistic gene also take away red, rather than just add melanin, although not completely clear yet maybe, there is some slight argueable evidence for that in the """"""snow"""" or as some would prefer to call the melanistic albino.
So Tom, inquiring minds what to know.....do any of the snows show flame orange sides??????????????? Lets see some pics if so, you're killing us man.


I really don't feel like holding on to them to find out.If you want them I will make a sweet deal!

[BUSHSNAKE]

Only an animal with yellow pigment can be Axanthic...only an animal with red pigment can be Anerythristic...can an animal with both yellow and red be both Axanthic and Anerythristic..Yes! The Charcoal Corn Snake morph is both Anery and Axanthic. Do all Anerys look the same, do all Axanthics look the same?....NO. If you have an albino that has red pigment(corn snake)and you wanna create a snow you need an anery, if you have an albino with yellow pigment(ball python)and you wanna create a snow you need an Axanthic. Could a plains garter be Anerythristic, i dont think so,plains garter snakes are not red! Could an Axanthic plains garter be blue in coloration, i think so cuz the population of snakes that the original Axanthic plains garter snake came from are greenish in coloration, if a greenish snake is blue then it must be without yellow pigment...When you breed to snakes together, one a flame and one a melanistic, you get some flames and no melanistics, by definition that makes the flame dominant over the melanistic, in order to get melanistics you need TWO contributing parents. If you wanna say the melanistic is dominant over the flame cuz you cant combine the two traits then that would be also correct...who cares about the "what ifs" so much has already been proven...and check this out, the guy who found the first Axanthic also bred it first and this is what he told me, when he bred the Axanthic to a normal plains he got all normals, but when he bred the Axanthic to the Anerythristic(which also occurs naturally in Illinois)he got half Axanthics and half normals...can mother nature be always fully understood, isnt it the mystery that keeps us attentive?

[ConcinusMan]

Plains garters are not red? Hmm....

http://www.thamnophis.com/thamphotos/data//500/medium/20100325redradixmale.jpg

[BUSHSNAKE]

No they are not red, that is not a normal plains is it? If that is normal is a non red one anerythristic?can you breed two normals and get a red one?no!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[ConcinusMan]

Looks normal to me. Normal red phase. Is it any less normal than a dark phase or a light phase? Is it not possible to have an anerythristic red phase? A red phase plains with the pigment missing from the red areas?

[BUSHSNAKE]

Are you kidding? An anery red phase? You said it yourself its a red phase, you must think all the normal ones are anerythristic, does that make sence to you?

[ConcinusMan]

No, the others cannot be anery since they never had red in the first place. They are not missing pigments. I'm sorry, I'm actually getting a kick out of this. :p

[BUSHSNAKE]

do you read what you write cuz you just contradicted yourself

[ConcinusMan]

I don't believe I did. The pigments are there, they just aren't red unless it's a red phase. therefore it cannot be anery. If it is a red phase and the pigments are missing, then those areas will lack any color at all. In that case, it would be anery. What's so hard to understand about that?

[BUSHSNAKE]

OK now that makes perfect sence thanks for clearing that up..whew!

[snakeman]

If you think I do this for the money you are on crack.I have never made money doing this and niether does anybody else.Just gives you enough to continue your hobby.

[ConcinusMan]

with some of the morphs you have and the prices paid for them, I find that a little hard to believe. I'm not accusing you of any wrong doing or lying, but even if it's true, it is hard to believe. If you're not profiting at all, then you should be.

Take a look at the prices paid for scotts offspring every year. You can't tell me it costs that much to keep and produce those snakes.

[BUSHSNAKE]

What?

[ConcinusMan]

I think he's referring to post #25. I hope I'm not pissing anyone off. I just can't resist messing with people sometimes. I say all of this with a light heart.:D

[BUSHSNAKE]

oh yes the all mighty dollar...this aint about no dam profits ya fool!

[ConcinusMan]

I agree. You get into it for the love of garters but you can't tell me it hasn't resulted in profit for some people. You could say that but I wouldn't believe it.

One friggen pair of normal concinnus and the resulting litters can easily result in profit. I haven't spent what a litter is worth, to keep a pair and probably still wouldn't have spent that much by the time another year has passed.

[BUSHSNAKE]

You dont know what Scott puts into this hobby and what he gets out of it, the man has worked hard to have the reputation he has today,show some respect

[ConcinusMan]

Yes, I can imagine what he has put into it to get where he is now, but that was not the point, was it? No disrespect was intended. Sorry if it offends someone just because I think they make a profit. There's nothing wrong with that. I mean, jeez. How could he not?

[BUSHSNAKE]

what business is it of yours on who makes a profit or not?

[ConcinusMan]

It isn't. I was only trying to dispute the statement made that nobody is profiting. That's bull.

[BUSHSNAKE]

your always disputing something

[ConcinusMan]

Yes I know. And sometimes I put my foot in my mouth. I actually enjoy losing an argument, especially if the argument is with myself. I'm done here. No hard feelings I hope.

[snakeman]

I deleted thaT post sorry about that.No use in arguing.

[prattypus]

I like the beginning of this thread alot more...

[ConcinusMan]

OK, OK, I'm sorry. We can move on. So...

How 'bout that litter? :o Can we get some recent pics if you still have 'em.:confused:

[charles parenteau]

lol héhé what about pictures !!!I want to see the evolution of your babies TOM!!?

[aSnakeLovinBabe]

oh my gosh this thread :rolleyes:

Tom... how many babies were there total? I didn't see a count anywhere... I always count, haha!

[ConcinusMan]

Yeah, really. (I'm secretly only agreeing with her because I like her and I am planning on making all her thamnophises and rat snakes are belong to me:cool: )

<object width="480" height="385"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/KPbzo6S4Sq0&hl=en_US&fs=1&"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/KPbzo6S4Sq0&hl=en_US&fs=1&" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="480" height="385"></embed></object>

There. That's much better. :p

[gartermorphs]

i will never get over the cutness of baby garters! you have amazing luck!

[ConcinusMan]

Speaking of which, guys, I had a surprise birth last night from an ordinoides. She's very small. I didn't think she was big enough but she popped out ONE live baby. Baby is smaller than you would expect from an ordinoides, but like I said, the female isn't even close to full grown. I didn't even suspect she was gravid. I do believe she is finished. Baby looks like a mini mom. Same color and pattern.

http://img686.imageshack.us/img686/5305/gedc1017a.jpg

[BUSHSNAKE]

Very cool!

[snakeman]

There were 21 total.7 mels, 2 albino, 4 albino flames,3 snows,and 5 normal double het with assorted color.I went to walmart to develop pics and the machine messed up my card.So I have to get a new one.

[Odie]

Speaking of which, guys, I had a surprise birth last night from an ordinoides. She's very small. I didn't think she was big enough but she popped out ONE live baby. Baby is smaller than you would expect from an ordinoides, but like I said, the female isn't even close to full grown. I didn't even suspect she was gravid. I do believe she is finished. Baby looks like a mini mom. Same color and pattern.

http://img686.imageshack.us/img686/5305/gedc1017a.jpg

http://www.thamnophis.com/thamphotos/data//500/medium/IMG_0028.JPG
Five when he was born :cool:

[mustang]

Yeah, really. (I'm secretly only agreeing with her because I like her and I am planning on making all her thamnophises and rat snakes are belong to me:cool: )

<object width="480" height="385"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/KPbzo6S4Sq0&hl=en_US&fs=1&"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/KPbzo6S4Sq0&hl=en_US&fs=1&" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="480" height="385"></embed></object>

There. That's much better. :plol snake talking bubble things halarious lololololololol rofl hahahahahahahahahahahahhahahahahahhahahhahahhahaha hax10

[BUSHSNAKE]

I love the video!!!!!!!

[mtolypetsupply]

If you think I do this for the money you are on crack.I have never made money doing this and niether does anybody else.Just gives you enough to continue your hobby.


C'mon, Tom. I know you treated your family to a nice big bowl of TOP Ramen, not just regular Ramen noodles, after you sold me those Pugets!!!!

Glad your season is going well. Keep posting pics!!!!

:)

[snakeman]

I mean I did make some money this year.But nothing compared to what I spent the past 10- 15 years!

C'mon, Tom. I know you treated your family to a nice big bowl of TOP Ramen, not just regular Ramen noodles, after you sold me those Pugets!!!!

Glad your season is going well. Keep posting pics!!!!

:)

[snakeman]

How are the pugets doing?

C'mon, Tom. I know you treated your family to a nice big bowl of TOP Ramen, not just regular Ramen noodles, after you sold me those Pugets!!!!

Glad your season is going well. Keep posting pics!!!!

:)

[ConcinusMan]

I mean I did make some money this year.But nothing compared to what I spent the past 10- 15 years!

The "good" or notable Thamnophis breeders, one's with "reps", the one's to produce the latest new morphs, to the single garter first-time, etc sharing their experiences and questions here, is all equally important info.

Like I already said, the best of the best breeders never got into it originally to make money. Love of the garters was first and for that love they invested capital. The investment was love, not dollars.;)

OK, that's it. IT'S WAR!!

No, I'm only kidding but I may have very fine blue puget breeder pair(s) by summer's end. 'My brother' is surrounded by them this spring and just so happens to commute my way several times this season.:cool:

I think they're awesome, you think they're awesome then let's go. "DING DING! "a litter of CB pugets in 2012 is a realistic goal I will reach.(or not:cool:)

Oh, and throw in hypo & anery concinnus for 2011.;)

[infernalis]

I mean I did make some money this year.But nothing compared to what I spent the past 10- 15 years!

I know the feeling, have not even recovered a tiny fraction of the money spent so far.


I went to walmart to develop pics and the machine messed up my card.So I have to get a new one.


Eek! lesson learned, copy the pictures onto a CD first at home.

[ConcinusMan]

Good advice^^^