More about mites.

[adamanteus]

Hi All,

I know that somewhere on this forum there's a thread about mites, but I can't find it...So...

Here is an observation of mine. I've never read it anywhere, but I have seen it many times in all sorts of snake species.

It seems to me, that immediately prior to sloughing, any mites on a snake's skin take part in a mass exodus, leaving their host and accumulating in some numbers in the snake's normal resting place (hides etc). So at the moment of shedding it's skin the snake is totally free of ectoparasites (obviously). On returning to it's hide the animal is immediatly re-infested. I have found (in the past) large numbers of mites hiding within the texture of bark hides or in the rim of plant pots etc. whilst their host is busy "peeling off" elsewhere. It would seem that the mites know when sloughing is imminent and so they react in this way.

This information could be used to our advantage when we believe our snakes to be parasitised.

Has anyone else ever noticed this behaviour?

[KITKAT]

Not sure about what you describe, but it has some logic.

I think you will find the posts about mites in the Urgent care section.

[adamanteus]

Also, I've never found a single mite on a newly sloughed skin. Which would seem to support it.

[Cazador]

Hi James,

Is this the thread you were talking about (http://www.thamnophis.com/forum/general-talk/341-mites.html)? I found it by clicking the "search" button below the "home" tab at the top of the page and searching for the keyword, "mites."

I know you're not suggesting it, but one obviously wouldn't want to delay treatment until the snakes were ready to slough. There are other less invasive remedies that people have used with mixed results. Here's one:

Frequently wash the snake with a mild liquid soap, like Ivory dishwashing soap; then thoroughly rinse it. Next apply a thin coat of vegetable oil all over the snake, including over (but not in) the nostrils. This removes most mites and suffocates others, but it doesn't kill the eggs. This method requires use of a clean quarantine tank in which you can change the substrate (newspaper or paper towels) at least daily. Periodic bleaching of the quarantine tank occurs, being done more frequently in the first few days after the snake has been added. The snake also gets re-washed & re-oiled frequently. Its water bowl is checked often; you can do the wet paper towel trick, and you can usually wet a Q-tip and run it around the rim of the eyes to detect remaining mites. This cleaning and oiling process is normally continued for at least two weeks (often longer), to ensure that all eggs have hatched and all mites have been removed.

If sloughing occurred in the middle of this process, one would want to wash, rinse, & oil the snake before moving it to a temporary holding area and bleaching the quarantine tank to ensure mites and eggs were removed. The problem is that mite infestations can also cause shedding problems, so it might not be a fool-proof method of ridding the snake of mites. Also remember that mites consume blood and fluids, so shed skins don't offer much for the mites in terms of their next meal. Mites give me the heebie-jeebies, so I've turned to chemical treatment and accept the known risks.

Rick

P.S. Don't let my secret search technique out ;). It makes me look smart and helpful :rolleyes:.

[adamanteus]

I wasn't suggesting we use it as a method of eradicating mites! That could never work! I was making an observation of a behaviour that might be of help to us. If we suspect a snake has mites but aren't sure, a quick pre-slough inspection of the plant pot (or whatever) would give us the answer.

[Cazador]

Man was I off track! After re-reading, I see clearly what you were talking about. Ehhhh heh heh. Oops :o. Sorry for the sidebar.

Rick

[Thamnophis]

I have seen it too, Rick.
On fresh shedded skins often are no mites.
Ik cannot say never, but I will try to take better looks in the future.
In our reptile zoo it is impossible to loose all mites. Often we get infected animals that are seized or found etc.
No problem, as long as you try to keep it under control.
We only use poison when the infection is very big and the animal is weak.

[KITKAT]

I was quite impressed with my first attempt to use Frontline for mites. Not only did the snakes recover quickly, but the frontline continued to kill anything that I may have missed in the environment when I did the cleanup. As a result, there has been no re-infestation.

I protected my Bearded Dragons by treating them concurrently with the snakes, and had good results there also!:cool:

[FitnessFreak]

how can you prevent your snake getting mites in the first place?

oh and when i catch my baby from the wild in mid june should i wash it in warm water and rub it down with paper toewl and put vegetable oil on it?

just to make sure?

[adamanteus]

As far as I'm aware there is no fool-proof way of preventing mites. Obviously precautions can be taken with existing pets, when introducing new animals etc. (quarantine). Personally, I wouldn't treat your new snake for mites until you know it has them.

[FitnessFreak]

As far as I'm aware this is no fool-proof way of preventing mites. Obviously precautions can be taken with existing pets, when introducing new animals etc. (quaranteen). Personally, I wouldn't treat your new snake for mites until you know it has them.
ok ty for the advice

[Cazador]

Hey Mike,

I'd offer the same advice as James. It wouldn't hurt to wash it off in warm (~90F/32C), soapy water, but the vegetable oil treatment isn't real popular these days because the snake can't get around as well when it's covered in oil, and it smears the oil everywhere. Some of the oil inevitably rubs off, and leaves untreated patches. That's why the newer treatments have generally gained favor. Yet, all pesticide are designed to kill organisms, and most (not all) work through the nervous system. Others affect their metabolic rate, and essentially cause them to overheat until they die. The only reason they don't hurt or kill larger organisms like your snake as quickly, is that the dose is different (due to different masses). That's why it's generally best to only treat for problems you recognize.

When you get your snake and before you wash it, you can rub it down with a wet, white paper towel and look for tiny black mites crawling around on the paper towell. Also pay attention to whether the snake hangs out in the water bowl. If so, just mention it online, and there will be plenty of people able to give you the right advise. Best,

Rick

[adamanteus]

I read somewhere that snake mites are developing an immunity to Dichlorovinyl Dimethyl Phosphate (the active chemical in "Vapona" and similar products). Has anyone else heard of this? Although I guess that Rick's excellent method of mite control would make such a problem irrelevant to us. Interesing anyway though, I thought.

[Cazador]

James,

That sounds familiar, but I don't remember where I heard it or if it was from a reliable source. I think you know, but just to be clear, I wasn't recommending the vegetable oil technique... just offering a less invasive technique that used to be popular a decade or more ago.

Rick

[adamanteus]

I think (personally) the vegetable oil technique to be a good idea. The oil would obviously block the mite's trachael spiracle (breathing apparatus) and so suffocate it. Probably a good idea to thoroughly remove the oil a couple of days later. I don't know, but oil may effect the natural sloughing process of a snake?

[Cazador]

oil may effect the natural sloughing process of a snake?


Wow. That's a good question. I'm not sure.

Rick

[adamanteus]

I might be talking nonsense there Rick...it's just a thought.

[Josh]

o boy i hope mine doesnt get those mites

[infernalis]

With the current mite discussions, this may be worth a read.

[jitami]

Just thought I'd mention that I did the oil treatment with Sly when we first got him and he had mites. What I did was every other day I would remove him from his enclosure, rub him down with olive oil, put him in another container, clean his enclosure thoroughly, replace paper towel substrate, new disposable hide, and clean water in a clean dish. Then I would return my attention to the snake, rubbing him down again with olive oil, just letting him move through my fingers for several minutes, then I rinsed him with warm water for a couple minutes and returned him to his now clean enclosure. If I remember correctly, the egg to mite cycle is about 3 days and, of course, the oil does nothing to the eggs, which is why I opted to treat Sly every 2 days. While rubbing him down with the oil my hands would eventually be covered in dead mites... I know, gross, but it was obviously working. I did this for about 3 weeks and haven't had a recurrence yet. This was about 7 years ago. He was a yearling at the time and I just didn't like the idea of using poison on him. May do things differently now, but the oil did work and work well.

Geez, I hope saying that doesn't jinx me!

[adamanteus]

It certainly sounds like a good safe method of destroying mites... the oil would block the trachael spiracle (breathing apparatus) of the mite. I'm not sure if olive oil might have a detremental effect on the snakes' sloughing process though, if it was not thoroughly washed off. Obviously you did wash it of properly, but if others were to copy your method, I think particular care should be taken to ensure that the snake was completely free of oil after each treatment.

[jitami]

Yes, I did rinse him off, but only in warm water. I doubt the water removed all the oil. It did not seem to have a negative effect on sloughing. I actually think we got our first good shed following the treatment, but honestly don't remember the timing exactly. This is all anecdotal evidence, of course, and James makes some very good points. I think I'd be worried about drying the snake out by washing him off with dish soap more so than adding oil?

[adamanteus]

Maybe the oil has no bad effect on sloughing at all.... I'm simply speculating.
Obviously it worked very well for you, Tami.

[jitami]

I think it's a valid concern James. I'd like to hear from other's who have tried it. Since we were having shedding issues prior to that it's hard to be sure.

[aSnakeLovinBabe]

Sometimes I use a bit of olive or vegetable oil on a snake that has for one reason or another, dry or rougher-than-normal skin... I read about a few people on other forums who rub it onto their snakes as a skin treatment regularly and tried it....have found that it does a great job in making their skin smoother, softer, shinier, and the slough is generally a better easier one for the snake, especially problem shedders.... I've been doing that for almost 2 years now with dry skin and tough sheds, and I've not yet noticed any problems, just shinier smoother skin! I don't slather them in it, just a few drops on my hand and evenly rub down the length of the body and kind of rub it in... You could also use mineral oil.

as for mites, boy were they a pain. I noticed the mites leaving the snakes and congregating elsewhere also!!!! I was so baffled one day to find a huge huddle of mites on one of the snakes that had them's hides.... and I sort of made the connection that the snake was shedding... but not all of them went off the snake.

I used the shed to my advantage. Once the snake went into blue, and came back out and it's skin was clear again, and I was sure it was time (after so long, you can just tell), I would take the snake out, first place them in a warm soak for a few minutes to get them all wet and remove as many mites as possible, then I would manually start the shed at the tip of the nose and gently work the entire shed off the snake myself, keeping my hands thoroughly wet the entire time. If you can peel the shed off all in one piece, or pretty darn close, and avoid touching the snake where shed has already peeled off (to avoid accidental re-infestation), you can actually instantly de-mite the entire snake... because the shed is a complete barrier, all of the mites are left stuck inside the now inside out skin and boy do they FREAK when they realize they are screwed!!! Once this happens, put the snake into a clean holding container and then you need to NUKE the snakes enclosure with cleaning, throwout anything wooden or put it outside for a bit over a month, dispose of anything disposable, scour the water dish and of course the cage itself too. If you successfully rid the enclosure of mites, they should not come back because you peeled the last of them off the snake yourself!!!

[infernalis]

Great advice Shannon.......

[charles parenteau]

Prevention is the best ,I keep my garter on scott towel or in aspen wood bedding ,something pale or with in the back help really help to see the first mites...
sometime with bark and all the decoration makes more difficult to detect mites and makes perfect hidding place for eggs.
I also use white ceramic water bowl ,you see the drown mites in the bottom..

[aSnakeLovinBabe]

I also use white ceramic water bowl ,you see the drown mites in the bottom..

same here!!!

I get ceramic bowls from walmart's dinnerware section, they are about 4 inches wide, pure white and only 88 cents each!!!!

[mtolypetsupply]

Does anyone know anything about internal or lung mites? I ask as a friend has some really pretty sunglow corns with URI's that were (external) mite infested when he got them. In researching on the net, it seems a URI can be secondary to a lung mite infestation (among other things like lung worms and other ickies). Has anyone dealt with this? Is it common? Curable? How transmissible?

[infernalis]

Good question Stephi, Can't hardly wait to read the replies.

[drache]

oh man - I posted about this already - where'd it go?
there's a number of things that can happen as a sequela to mites
I don't know about lung mites, but regular mites can be carriers for aeromonas hydrophilia bacteria which can cause some kind of pneumonia

[keelerskiddiecare]

How does one know if their snake has mites??? Can you see them?? We have had Mrs. Wiggles for 2 yrs now and I don't thinks she has mites. If she did I would know by now would I not?

[drache]

mites are tiny black critters, and yes, you can see them; they're about a quarter of the size of a metal pinhead, and they move around
and they proliferate, so you'd have known within a couple of months you had bugs of some kind

[guidofatherof5]

How does one know if their snake has mites??? Can you see them?? We have had Mrs. Wiggles for 2 yrs now and I don't thinks she has mites. If she did I would know by now would I not?

They like the scales under the chin and if you handle Mrs. Wiggles much you find them on your hands. They might(no pun intended) look like a moving spec of dirt. Rhea's right, you would know it if she had them.

[bigj2484]

going bck to the frontline post i have never heard of using frontline for cats and dogs for snake mites, is this the same kind of frontline or something different? If so has anyone used it with success and how do you apply the product i currently am dealing with mites i have done one treatment with reptile relief de flea and it seemed to kill the mites on the snake but not so much on the enclosure. any any info is appreciated

[aSnakeLovinBabe]

going bck to the frontline post i have never heard of using frontline for cats and dogs for snake mites, is this the same kind of frontline or something different? If so has anyone used it with success and how do you apply the product i currently am dealing with mites i have done one treatment with reptile relief de flea and it seemed to kill the mites on the snake but not so much on the enclosure. any any info is appreciated

In order to be successful with reptile relief, it really helps to know how it works. It needs to directly come into contact with a mite to kill it. That's because reptile relief is a natural remedy that chemically interacts with the exoskeleton of a mite and basically turns it soft and mushy, effectively causing the mite to die. It will take a mite that has come into contact with the stuff a while to die, but eventually it will. The biggest problem is the eggs that lay waiting in the cage. if you are using a substrate, not all of the eggs will be killed by it because they are buried, and so new mites will hatch and reinfest.

Treating with frontline plus is not something ever recommended to a beginner, because it would be extremely, extremely, incredibly easy to overdose your snake on the stuff and kill it. I myself won't even bring myself to every try it for that reason. Go online and order a can of provent-a-mite. That should very effectively rid your snake of his mites! You simply take the water bowl and snake out, treat the cage, wait for the mist to dry and replace the snake and water. For faster, better results, use newspaper as a substrate while treating, and change out and re-treat the new paper each day. Treat the snake itself first with an overnight soak in a container that 1) it can't get out of and 2) forces him to remain in the water but make it shallow enough so that he can easily rest with his head up. Then you can follow up that by using the reptile relief.

[drache]

I've never used it and I've asked both of my vets about it and neither knows anything about it and they think it's weird
one of them contacted the company and they advised against it
so I just went to look at Mader and he warns against it

[gregmonsta]

I'll still sing praises for provent-a-mite. It is a little extreme but at least you never apply it directly on your animals - remove water and snake - 1 second spray per metre on the substrate - ventilate room - bathe your snake for a bit and then wait for another hour or so - return snake to enclosure - give water back the following day - forget about the mites.
1 treatment = 6 weeks = broken lifecycle = excellent

PS I also treated the carpet surrounding the viv at the time.

[Masticophis]

I've not tried the provent a mite but I usually use ivormectin, in the form of panomec. Diluted in water and the snakes bathed in it then the viv cleaned. Still tricky for a large collection though.

Another one I had great success with was the predator mites 'hypoaspis mites', you need to keep damp places in the vivs but they breed and kill off all the snake mites. One I would certainly recommend.

Also I've noticed that diluted F10scxd, which is a disinfectant that is safe to use with animals, it kills small flies and seems to kill mites. Not sure if you get F10 in the states but it's probably the best cleaner out there, kills just about everything and is very safe to use. Have cured fungal infections in snakes just by bathing them daily in it.

Mike

[adamanteus]

Interesting info on the F10, Mike.