Hypoanerythristic and high black concinnus

[ConcinusMan]

Here's a comparison of the hypoanerythristic concinnus male I have, (second picture) compared to shannon's high-black normal red concinnus. They will be side-by-side in person at the next show she is attending. Interesting, huh? I really want one of her snakes if she can manage to breed the spots out of them while keeping the orange head. That would be awesome.

http://i286.photobucket.com/albums/ll86/aSnakeLovinBabe/Snakes/Garters/5689046.jpg

http://img510.imageshack.us/img510/81/gedc1027.jpg

Here's a typical wild oregon snake:

http://www.dinosoria.com/serpents/serpent_jarretiere_06.jpg

And, an infrequently encountered 3 striped one:

http://www.eitangrunwald.com/MISC/MISCp1_files/Red%20Spotted%20Garter.jpg

[aSnakeLovinBabe]

No spots with an orange head is where I am going with that project! Looks like yours is in shed! It's nice to see them side by side in pictures since I can't do it in real life yet....! :D

[ConcinusMan]

Sorry I edited after you replied. Added other pics. I sometimes find 3 stripers. My pair had offspring of both types and even a few high blacks. He's not in shed yet. Stupid flash effect. But he is getting dull. Just not blue yet. Oh, and he's not mine. He's yours. ;)

[aSnakeLovinBabe]

wooow. I simply LOVE the snake in the 3rd picture!

[ConcinusMan]

Oh rly? Not necessarily unobtainable. Especially in Clark Co. WA. They don't breed true though. You end up with mostly 1 stripers and just a few 3 stripers. My pair were both 1 stripers but still threw a few 3 striper offspring.

[jitami]

I love how distinct the dorsal stripe is on these guys. Fun project, Shannon. Good luck!

[ConcinusMan]

Hurry up and obtain that goal shannon! I'd pay at least $80 for a snake like that. Perhaps significantly more than that.

[aSnakeLovinBabe]

Oh rly? Not necessarily unobtainable. Especially in Clark Co. WA. They don't breed true though. You end up with mostly 1 stripers and just a few 3 stripers. My pair were both 1 stripers but still threw a few 3 striper offspring.

Haha, I was actually referring to the one striper... he's AWESOME! I am trying to hurry... lol! All I can do is feed my snakes, stick them in a fridge and hope they get in the mood! One of my males was courting one of the high black girls heavily before brumation, it was like she shed and magically smelled delicious to him. We will see what happens!

[gregmonsta]

Gotto love concinnus. I'd still be interested in seeing more truly anerysthic concinnus. Their pattern in a pure black and white would be stunning.

[ConcinusMan]

I wish I could remember where the post is. When I first joined the forum it was the first time I had every seen an anery concinnus. It was right here on the forum. It was simply black and white put not what I would call stunning. You can take a photo of a normal and simply turn it into a black and white photo and there you go. That's what they look like. My hypos look more like the saturation was turned down in varying degrees. Some of them are very close to anery in appearance.

[ConcinusMan]

I would be interested in hearing your theories and speculation about the genes involved. How the heck that entire population of concinnus limited to a very tiny geographic area, end up being hypoanerythristic.
http://img510.imageshack.us/img510/81/gedc1027.jpg

I didn't see a single normal snake among them. Doesn't sound recessive, so why such a limited area I wonder? I mean, you cannot deny something interesting is going on when all the snakes in that very limited area look like that, some even more faded and yet....

, normal snakes dominate the entire region and aren't far away from this population. There were a few that had a bit more normal coloration but still significantly different from snakes all over the same county/city looking like the one below but with varying area of spots and sometimes more orange on the head.

http://www.californiaherps.com/noncal/northwest/nwsnakes/images/tsconcinnussr052.jpg

Something entirely different is going on in Benton county, OR. Another situation where that is the only very limited area throughout Oregon where these high-red (orange) concinnus with entirely orange heads can be found in the wild. I like them as much, if not more than some of the CB deep reds or others only found in captivity. Benton Co snake:

http://www.californiaherps.com/noncal/northwest/nwsnakes/images/tsconcinnusor906.jpg

[ConcinusMan]

Now, to be able to display these 3 together at a show, AND truthfully say that no selective CB was involved, AND these 3 populations are found within a 100 mile stretch the 1-5 corridor surrounded by more "typical" snakes that just...

Extremely interesting.

[BUSHSNAKE]

i like that Benton Co, sharp animal

[ConcinusMan]

Yeah, and they are all high reds (not to be confused with deep red, which I've only seen in CB) in that area. A very small county east of Salem, OR. Outside that range, they less distinct and more typical. Extreme NW oregon and SW WA wild snakes ALWAYS have the black head and blue/green/white lips like the second picture. You just don't see orange heads/upper labials anywhere but the Salem area. I highly suspect that's where much of the CB stock with that same feature, came from originally. That includes Shannons snake.

[Jeff B]

Wow, I like that Benton Co. animal too, crisp and vivid. That anery is cool looking too.

[ConcinusMan]

I didn't get any theories so I guess I'll start making suggestions. Since some or most of the snakes do produce red pigments in varying levels of reduction could this be a co-dominant mutation? is there such a thing?. Lets say an abnormal gene causes the inability to produce red pigment.

If that gene was co-dominant, wouldn't a breeding to a WT produce all hets that still appear anerythristic?

If the offspring breed to one another or another,(het to het) wouldn't the offspring have only a 25% chance of being WT, 50% hets that don't look normal, and 25% are anery?

I don't even want to throw in the complication that there might be more than one gene involved for producing red in concinnus. That's a possibility since some WT are more red, others are more orange. If there's two genes involved homo snakes for one of the genes could have only reduced red, but not completely lacking it. The male I have with more orange than the others, but still not normal, also happens to have a yellow stripe, not greenish/white. Could red and yellow pigment (separate) genes be involved?

This stuff is so confusing. I would really like to hear a few theories/ideas from you genetics experts out there. How could a population of concinnus come have all the snakes lacking red or having reduced red in varying degrees? I would really appreciate it if you could explain the most statistically probable way this population got to be this way. I cannot say I saw a totally anerythristic snake but I can say all lacked normal coloring, some more reduced than others. As you can see, the female on the right is obviously not normal color but the male on the left has closer to normal but still reduced. He was the only one I saw that day that had closer to normal pigment. His black is not exactly black either.
http://img299.imageshack.us/img299/7812/gedc0979.jpg

[Odie]

Both in Hillsboro :cool:

http://www.thamnophis.com/thamphotos/data//500/Tiger_001.JPG http://www.thamnophis.com/thamphotos/data//500/Tiger_002.JPG

http://www.thamnophis.com/thamphotos/data//500/medium/IMG_0008.JPG

http://www.thamnophis.com/thamphotos/data//500/medium/IMG_0009.JPG
:cool:

[ConcinusMan]

Not far from where I got my snakes so it's not surprising that they share some similarities. Typical for that area is the mixed color (black and orange mottling) on the tops of their heads more often than not, instead of solid black. And just like Portland/Vancouver area snakes, they have the blue/green throat. The lighter colored orange isn't quite enough for me to say that your snake is significantly different than a typical NW OR/SW WA snake. Not enough for me to call any of those snakes totally out of the norm. If most of them I saw in the location were like the male in the picture I provided, or just a few of them were, it wouldn't have raised a brow since the orange is obviously present, albeit very light, like yours. But when the majority of the snakes (and I saw 20-25) that you can find and inspect don't have any color that you can call red or orange and all the colors look washed out or bleached to almost nothing, now that's notable. The female I have really appears to have more color in her spots than real life. In person, her spots more closely match her greenish/white stripe. Typical concinnus, whether greenish or yellow stripes have spots that do not even come close to matching their stripe.

All these CB concinnus pics I've been seeing since I joined with deep red, I was telling everyone that is not typical for a WC snake in WA or most of Oregon. But for someone who hasn't found many concinnus over a wide range of both states expects them to be a typical example of the ssp, and expect red. I was telling them, I don't know why they are called RED spotted when ORANGE is a better description for the majority of the concinnus across their entire range. Entirely bright colored heads doesn't represent the majority either. Most tops of the heads are mixed black and orange or all black.

But then you go to an area like Benton Co. and all-orange heads and high orange (total area with this color) richly saturated, dominate and they lack the blue throats. Again, that population is distinctly different than the rest of the ssp range.

Then I find the population I found. Washed-out, faded, appearing to mostly lack anything you can call even very light orange, let lone red, dominates. Overall appearance is that something bleached the orange out of them. Just washed-out looking. Snakes like your pictures, with orange, and like the male in my pic, are few and far between. 1 in 20 that I saw.

CB deep red concinnus probably exist in the wild somewhere as does my hypoanerythristic ones but DO NOT represent the majority of the ssp:

http://lh5.ggpht.com/_r4FF0W1-dCM/Sxvyt_WirBI/AAAAAAAAJQo/HeIRZs-NPHs/s800/IMG_3735.JPG
http://www.thamnophis.com/thamphotos/data//500/medium/IMG_0009.JPG

http://img510.imageshack.us/img510/81/gedc1027.jpg


Perhaps I'm making more out of this than it really is. Perhaps there is no special gene carried by my snakes. It's obvious that natural or unnatural selective breeding and "pocket genetics" influences the color of these snakes from a deep red to almost no orange at all. The majority of the snakes in their range just lie somewhere in between. Maybe the opposites are limited in range/genepool and are just extreme examples of the ssp overall. Perhaps all of them really are red but certain wavelengths of light are absorbed by their skin so they just appear very red or very NOT red.

[Jeff B]

I gave my theory about your finding the low red or anerythristic in one area, but unfortunately it ended up on my post with my babies.
But I will copy it here.
This is likely an example of isolated or "pocket" population genetics. The genes (rather than a single gene mutation) for less color have been selected or have dominated that population for what ever reason, could be the brighter colored ones were more easily seen and preyed upon, or could just be that a few mutations for less color that are dominant or co-dominant to the brighter reds occured over time and accumulated and became the overwhelming prevelant phenotype in the population in that area due to a lack of outside population genes in that particular area.
However its certainly possible that it is a single point mutation, likely co-dom or dom that has spread, accumulated, and become the most prevelant phenotype in that isolated population to the point that it is essentially the "wild type". There is only one way to find out, breeding trials outcrossing to other snakes with the more normal red from some other location, at least 2 or 3 generations would be required likely to prove or disprove that it is a single heritable gene and what type of inhertance pattern it exhibits.
__________________
Jeff Benfer

[ConcinusMan]

I think that is the most logical explanation. I still don't know where these babies WC ancestors come from, (can't find the pic right at the moment) that I just saw but I've never seen a concinnus with so deep red and colored heads, AND yellow throats? It's white or bluish in the wild. Deep orange or light orange. 3 stripes or 1. Lot's of red spots or few. That's it.

I think somebody has been cheating and crossing with fitchii for the deeper red and that's where the yellow throat came from. Sometimes I wonder about CB snakes represented as concinnus. Perhaps they aren't pure.

[Jeff B]

Well I certainly hope that intentional CB hybridization isn't occuring with the concinnus, just for the sake of improving a color line and to make money, ect., In my humble oppinion things get very "muddy" genetics wise when that happens, especially generations down the road, when people buying a snake don't even realize it. It's kind of sad when you look at the monstrosities that have been created in other snake species, without naming any names. Some colubrids, it's getting to the point or soon will that you don't even know what species to call it or even genus, lol, may as well just label it "snake" sp. % unknown. But you can't talk any reason, it just becomes a big contriversial arguement, so to each there own, know what I mean?

[guidofatherof5]

Some colubrids:rolleyes: I wonder what you mean:D Sorry, I'm being a little corny.:D

[ConcinusMan]

I hear you there but the hybrids you're speaking of aren't even the same species and are usually not even geographically close enough to have been in each others range any time in the recent past few millenia.

T.s. fitchii can be found not very far east of my location (columbia river gorge) but always have 3 stripes and very dark red spots and yellow throats/chins. Very similar to concinnus in appearance but I think it's already been proven by genetic tests that the two ssp did not contribute genetic material to each other at any time in the past. Currently they are outside of each others range in the gorge. Genes are definitely not the reason they look similar but it is not unlikely that the two could be physically compatible and would probably produce hybrids under certain circumstances (like captivity) Same goes for infernalis. No genetic sharing in the past, no chance of hybrids in nature. Even in humans there is evidence to suggest that part of our genetic makeup was inherited from past extinct hominids, especially H. erectus but that's for another debate. My point is, no evidence suggests that any similar garter ssp in the west are related. To the contrary, some western ssp are more related genetically to garters that look totally different and are found far from the west.

My statement about those CB concinnus I saw was probably a bit short-sighted and jumping to conclusions. It's just that I've never seen concinnus look like that in any wild photograph. They had yellow throats, deep red, clean head entirely red. Basically I want to know if the CB concinnus have any wild ancestors that share their unusual traits. But I'm just rambling on now.

People playing God with the crossings are very pleased with some of their designer, one of a kind snakes. I have one thing to say about that gorgeous hybrid. That ONE special one out of the entire litter. "Bet you can't friggen do it again!"

I've said it before, a wolf is the same species as a the tiniest purebred domestic dog. As different as they are, man worked with genetic traits that were always there and came up with these domestic dogs. That makes man a co-creator. When you cross with another species, it never ends well in the long run. You can cross a wolf or domestic dog with a coyote (not the same species) or cross garter species/ssp. but in my opinion that would be as stupid as robbing a jewelry store at knife point. IF it works you might get one or two gems to show off for a short time but the consequences....

Let the hybrid fans have their day in the sun. We'll keep breeding (even if it's selectively) same species and ssp for their naturally inherited traits and have our millenium in the sun. We know why hybrids in the wild are extremely rare. They aren't meant to be, are against the rules of nature and therefore won't last. (I realize that nature has been known to change the rules at times but this is not one of those times)

Anyway, back to the weird concinnus. I found that shannons "rainbow man" shares traits with many wild concinnus but to find one or population of snakes like that.. well... prove they exist in the wild. I don't think they do. It looks more like it has the best traits of a fitchii combined with the best traits of a concinnus. Also, I think he will fade over time and not hurt your eyes so much. Her high black line is well, admirable but snakes like that can be found randomly within a population of typicals.

Maybe I'm making too much out of details when it comes to these very different concinnus I have. She has the rainbow man but I am concinnusman. It's my self-assigned duty to bring these details to light and discuss anything having to do with concinnus. :D

Pics of shannons rainbow concinnus: http://forums.kingsnake.com/view.php?id=1731489,1731489

[Odie]

http://www.thamnophis.com/thamphotos/data//500/medium/IMG_0009.JPG
Her strip is dayglow lime and her spots are about as red as the nose on that "deep red" :D

[ConcinusMan]

Nothing unusual. Nothing so different to make you say WTF? All over their range you'll find both "dayglow lime", yellow, or almost white stripes. I can get all 3 from one pair and even a few 3 stripers, all in the same litter.

One more detail I thought I would share another hint: If one of the snakes from my snakes' location were to fall asleep on a raft and drift UPSTREAM for an hour or two he might wake up right where you found yours. I'm thinking SE hillsboro is where you found yours.

The deep red I'm referring to looks like this:


http://lh4.ggpht.com/_r4FF0W1-dCM/SyP28fbjdbI/AAAAAAAAJSw/oFS6AkYKRlw/s800/IMG_3753.JPG

By contrast the notably hypoery's upstream from you look like this and dominate the population:
http://img510.imageshack.us/img510/81/gedc1027.jpg

Neither the deep red or the second pic are what I would call typical. Yours is somewhere in between and not hard to find in that region of Oregon. I just thought it was very weird to find a spot where nearly all were hypoerys like this second pic. It's like, "OK, who the heck went and washed the colors in bleach?"

[ConcinusMan]

I finally figured out who that new member was that gave me hints to location of these weird concinnus. I mean, I took a leap of faith and traveled 25 miles to find these concinnus. I think his original post that I was referring to got deleted but he did indicate that the weird concinnus were somewhere near beaverton. Take a look at the last pic in one of his posts. Look familiar? it does to me. Got two in my room right now that look like that! Where's the red? forget red, where's the color? any color? Maybe everyone just assumed photgraphic error and didn't comment about the color but no, that's really what they look like. there is a bit of a greenish tint all over but nothing I would call red or orange. Not even yellow.

http://www.thamnophis.com/forum/showthread.php?t=6499

http://i206.photobucket.com/albums/bb201/tokaysrnice/Portland%20Herping/DSC03669.jpg

Coincidentally I am also highly seeking for ordinoides with the red stripe which he also photographed and posted in that thread. GIMMIE! MINE!

[gregmonsta]

A bit like the one in this autopsy - http://www.schlangenauge.ch/concinus.pdf

[Jeff B]

That black and white anery concinnus look is really growing on me, I like it. Of course everybody likes the bright crisp deep red ones.

[ConcinusMan]

Ooops. Why didn't somebody say something. I totally screwed up. The title of the thread should read "hypoerythristic" Oops. Now I feel stupid. Like a kid in school who's been wearing a "kick me, I'm an idiot" sign all day. Can a mod fix that without contributors losing the thread in their subscriptions?

[mustang]

Ooops. Why didn't somebody say something. I totally screwed up. The title of the thread should read "hypoerythristic" Oops. Now I feel stupid. Like a kid in school who's been wearing a "kick me, I'm an idiot" sign all day.
i believe the "dunce cap" should be reintroduced in middle schools everywhere...im in high school :D

[ConcinusMan]

Humiliation as a form of punishment? We have enough kids going "columbine" these days don't you think they already get enough humiliation?

[mustang]

Humiliation as a form of punishment? We have enough kids going "columbine" these days don't you think they already get enough humiliation?
well more keep doing that type of ridiculis dangerous stunts so NO, more public hangings might decrease crime rate! ENFORCE DEATH PENALTY !

[Stefan-A]

Humiliation as a form of punishment? We have enough kids going "columbine" these days don't you think they already get enough humiliation?
I couldn't agree more.

[ConcinusMan]

Oh now we're off topic and THEN he speaks up ^^^


That black and white anery concinnus look is really growing on me, I like it. Of course everybody likes the bright crisp deep red ones.

I prefer the high orange ones like the benton co. area snakes. Shannons high black is pretty sharp too.

[Jeff B]

Ooops. Why didn't somebody say something. I totally screwed up. The title of the thread should read "hypoerythristic" Oops. Now I feel stupid. Like a kid in school who's been wearing a "kick me, I'm an idiot" sign all day. Can a mod fix that without contributors losing the thread in their subscriptions?
__________________

I saw the misnomer/mispelling but I knew what you meant, so didn't feel the need for correction/humiliation or whatever, lol, no big deal.
In some ways it's just easier to just call it anery, but since it sounds like the red is not 100% gone, even though by that one photo I could not tell any red what so ever remained, it looks completely black and white, but I agree hypoerythristic is may be technically more discriptive if its not 100% gone.

[cowsymbola]

I prefer the orange over the deep red myself. And, of course, Shannon's high blacks.

[ConcinusMan]

Her "Rainbow man" is pretty darn cool too but I'm not convinced he is 100% concinnus. Looks like some T.s.fitchi influence in there. But that happens sometimes in the wild too. Rare, but it happens.

Let's take inventory of all the WC and CB concinnus we have so far to illustrate their differences:

My hypoanerythristic (but typical for the population/ limited area where it was found in NW Oregon)
http://img510.imageshack.us/img510/81/gedc1027.jpg



Benton County Oregon wild (typical for that area):
http://www.californiaherps.com/noncal/northwest/nwsnakes/images/tsconcinnusor906.jpg

Shannons CB high black:
http://i286.photobucket.com/albums/ll86/aSnakeLovinBabe/Snakes/Garters/5689046.jpg


Shannons extremely colorful CB "rainbow man" purchased at a show:
http://i286.photobucket.com/albums/ll86/aSnakeLovinBabe/P1090547.jpg

A wild snake with certain key traits shared with the rainbow man. Can't quite find a population like that but...

Those traits I mentioned before that might be a case of fitchii genes contributing seems to be true. Whether it be intentional or unintentional CB hybrids, natural hybrids... I mean, the only place in the wild where snakes quite like hers or this one only occur randomly and infrequently but also ONLY in the fitchii/concinnnus intergrade zones. Other questionables are possible fitchii/pickeringi and those only occur randomly within known established intergrade zones. Hmmm...

Possible concinnus X fitchii wild in the intergrade zone:
http://calphotos.berkeley.edu/imgs/512x768/0000_0000/0509/0599.jpeg

Possible pickeringi X fitchii wild in that intergrade zone: (I tend to think this one is just a plain fitchii IMHO)
http://www.californiaherps.com/noncal/northwest/nwsnakes/images/tsirtalispe05.jpg

What do those two have in common? They both are in fitchi zones shared by other sirtalis (concinnus and pickeringi resp) Now you see why I question some of the so-called concinnus in CB collections? They sure do share fitchii traits. Even if they are 75% concinnus the snakes won't quite be like normal concinnus.

All very interesting snakes. I have a goal for this year: obtain examples of distinctly different concinnus. Still gorgeous snakes though.

I'll say it one more time. I have doubts that rainbow man is 100% concinnus.

[aSnakeLovinBabe]

Sadly, rainbow man stopped thriving, quickly went downhill and perished :(

You, me and everyone else could have speculated endlessly as to what he was but we will never know! And actually, that is the beauty of a snake like that one.

The high blacks are captive born babies from WC stock of unknown origin. I cherry picked them out of a tank full of baby concinnus at daytona 2008. Had I known what I was onto, I would have grabbed more. The male was even more reduced but unfortunately, he never thrived. My current high black project consists of two females like the picture in this thread and then a male that was actually the first concinnus I ever purchased. He is not quite like them but he is definitely a black-dominated snake and very different from my red trio.

I can't wait to see my hypo-erys on friday :D Once they are here that will make 1.2 high blacks, 1.2 reds, and 1.1 hypoerythristic. Oh joy!

[ConcinusMan]

Very sorry to hear about the rainbow man. didn't mean to dishonor his life. I honestly think he was a hybrid. he was gorgeous anyway.

rest assured your high black concinnus are gorgeous too and I have no such suspicions about them. They are definitely pure concinnus.

Even if you do not achieve all-black with the orange heads, keep the line going. They are very nice as-is.

I'm sure your new arrivals will thrive. They are already good-sized young adults and feeding well. After today however, it's 70 degrees max and NO FOOD until they ship. Still can't guarantee they won't crap in their package!

[ConcinusMan]

I finally got a good shot of the female "weird" concinnus I have and is going to shannon. This time I was able to somewhat capture the weird "dayglow green" that radiates from these very different snakes. She's on the left. A pretty much normal but very light orange male to her right with some ordinoides. Isn't she a beauty? personality to match.
http://img406.imageshack.us/img406/688/gedc1073p.jpg

[ssssnakeluvr]

very nice! good photo!! oh, and you can send me the red stripe ordinoides ;)

[aSnakeLovinBabe]

Ooooo boy, I can hardly wait :D:o:rolleyes::p;):cool:

[prattypus]

Didn't read through the entire thread, but didja notice how close to the Columbine anniversary that comment was placed? As a former student of that school district- senior year 99, I have strong emotions attached to labels as such. I find it hard to swallow the phenomenon being branded as Kleenex, Google, and Xerox.

I know this is way off topic, but it still simmers some days.

[ConcinusMan]

very nice! good photo!! oh, and you can send me the red stripe ordinoides ;)

I'm not sure what's going on there, but that ordinoides isn't as nice as the photo suggests. Here it is:

http://img229.imageshack.us/img229/4549/gedc0949.jpg

I can do better than that by finding one with a nice solid deep red stripe and I'll keep looking.

Be patient Don, been waiting a month for the weather to turn. Well it did, next few days will be nice. Wouldn't you know it, my employer calls this morning and wants me to work away those sunny days. D'OH!!!

[ssssnakeluvr]

thats still a nice ordinoides!! you can send her too!!

[Odie]

How, every shipper I talk to wants to wait 5 days to 2 weeks :confused::mad:

[ConcinusMan]

Mon-Thurs are the only days good for shipping snakes, and some won't even ship on thurs, that only leaves mon, tue, and wed as good shipping days.

I don't know who you talked to but why not ask them why the delay.

[aSnakeLovinBabe]

I usually only ship out on mon, tue. or wednesday... are you paying them with paypal or sending them a MO? If that's the case, a lot of sellers won't ship until they have the money deposited into their account. that usually takes 3-5 days at least... and if the timing is bad it could wind up delaying shipment for up to two weeks!

[Odie]

No, I am trying to ship a garter :o

[ConcinusMan]

Ooops.

[aSnakeLovinBabe]

Ooops.
?????

[ConcinusMan]

Put the post out there without first consulting with my brain. I thought better of it and got rid of the content. I just didn't know how or if I can delete it entirely.

[ConcinusMan]

Just to revive this thread (since I just love talking about concinnus, duh.) I wanted to recap a little bit. This would be a normal for my area:
http://img237.imageshack.us/img237/7849/gedc1226.jpg

In this picture, you see Shannon's anery female on the left. My male on the right has a slight hint of orange compared to the anery. Now compare all three, and it's like 3 different degrees. One normal orange. One very faded washed out orange, (Hypoerythristic) and one anerythristic (no orange or red at all).
http://img406.imageshack.us/img406/688/gedc1073p.jpg

Now if I could get my hands on one like that black baby Don has, I'd have the whole spectrum! I sure hope he can repeat that very black concinnus again. I want one.
http://i59.photobucket.com/albums/g302/ssssnakeluvr/DSCF4016-1.jpg

[Tyrel26]

I can't help but think that the eyes on that little guy look a little sunken; but maybe its just the angle. Regardless its a very nice snake and i hope its doing well.

[ssssnakeluvr]

does look that way...but, he's fine...just a trick of the coloration and shade.....

[Tyrel26]

thats good :) beautiful little snake. Would be very interesting to see what its gonna look like as an adult

[ConcinusMan]

I can't help but think that the eyes on that little guy look a little sunken; but maybe its just the angle. Regardless its a very nice snake and i hope its doing well.


Looks normal to me. What I don't like to see in neonates is their jaw line being offset from the neck in a way that makes their head look too big for their body. You know what I'm talking about. The "square jaw" affect. A starved adult will get that. I don't like seeing it right when they're born. Those one's usually don't make it.

[ConcinusMan]

Here's one of my gorgeous 3 stripe females. She just finished shedding. This girl is 34 inches. 3 stripe concinnus are very uncommon outside of T.s.fitchii or T.s.pickeringii intergrade zones. This girl is not an intergrade. She's just a fairly uncommon pure T.s. concinnus morph.
http://img412.imageshack.us/img412/5080/big3stripe.jpg
http://img210.imageshack.us/img210/2831/gedc1375small.jpg
It's interesting to note that unlike the single striped snakes, these never have red spots below the lateral. Single stripers commonly have red spots below the lateral line, extending to the edge of the belly scales as in this little male (reserved for Don) But make no mistake, these are both pure concinnus found well outside intergrade zones and only a few meters from one another.
http://img291.imageshack.us/img291/2349/gedc1277.jpg
The last time I bred two single stripe concinnus from that same population, I ended up with perhaps one in five neonates that had 3 stripes. Most, but not all of those, retained their stripes into adulthood.

It's easy to see how a captive breeder might confuse fitchii and concinnus and whether intentionally or not, allow them to crossbreed. Some pugets also look very much like this 3 stripe concinnus. Only a trained, experienced eye might tell the difference.

T.s. fitchii (Valley Garter)

http://www.californiaherps.com/snakes/images/tsfitchieatfrogsmfc308.jpg