Major bummer

[Jeff B]

When I was cleaning out the tub tonight I took a close look at the 3 stillborns and unfortunately one of them was a snow, possibly would have been a erythristic snow, which to my knowledge would have been a first. Talk about a painfull realization, I feel sick right now....if only those 3 would have made it too.:(
But the bright side is 9 lived and appear to be perfectly healthy, so I guess I will count my blessing.
http://www.thamfriends.com/forum/picture.php?albumid=19&pictureid=1469

[guidofatherof5]

The glass is always half full.
Sorry for your loss.
I just had 7 radixes born. I love having babies around.

[Jeff B]

Your right Steve, congrats on the radix!!!, the babies are fun to have around

[infernalis]

Sad fact of breeding Jeff. Hate to say it, but in time you get used to it.

[ConcinusMan]

I couldn't stand it when I see my due female concinnus doing the jiggy dance. cancel all appointments, call in sick to work, do whatever I had to do to be there. I know that if I were not there, some would have suffered that fate. Some just don't have the strength to break free of the membrane and they can get stuck to objects, dry out, and well... poor lil guys need help sometimes. And there's almost always a few that come out and it's already too late for them. You may "get used to it" but it's hard not to feel the loss, regardless of the potential dollar value of the lost ones. Snow or not snow, this morph or that morph, or regular snake, it pains me to see the lost ones especially when they die after taking a breath or two. then I turn my attention to those that appear well. Makes it all better!

Like steve was getting at, it appears that you are seeing your glass half empty. Take a look around at the squirming live ones. Your glass is half full. One might argue that it is more than half full since you have healthy live offspring. I've experienced a true EPIC FAIL and was presented with 28 fully developed dead concinnus my second time around. Not one survived that birthing. (sept 1992)

Mother made up for it with 52 offspring in 1994. about 45 made it to their 6 month age, 5 died during or after brumating. 40 healthy strong babies made it to about 1 year old before being released in the same location I found their mother when she was about a year old(1988). 40 lived and were released in early summer 1995. 40 very fit youngsters. My cup runneth over.

[aSnakeLovinBabe]

:( oh Jeff that is seriously a huge bummer.....

[gregmonsta]

Congrats on the litter :) there's always next year ;)

[Snakers]

it seems we always loose our best:(Good luck with the live babies:)

[Scott F]

Hey Jeff,

Sorry to hear about the stillborns, The good to come of this is you know(for a fact) that the adults are 100% hets for albino, erythristic albino, erythristic, melanistic (did you get my pm on this one), snow, and possibly erythristic snow. If the erythrism leaches into the snows like it did on the albinos, that could be a way cool new morph.

Scott

[Jeff B]

Yeah no doubt the value of the parents now, triple hets, thats a powerful breeder pair, one I won't easily part with.
Regarding your PM I will have to look at the mel closer, but right now I am leaning on that the ery genes causing the mel to have some pattern showing. It would be super cool if as it gets older developed a purple-ish background color with black spots, as the ery genes kick in as it gets older and developes full adult coloration. If you noticed the stillborn mel was solid jet black, but then again it was dead, so probably will need to just be patient and see how the mel developes and what it looks like in 6 months before we draw any real conclusions.
My cup might runeth over with beer tonight after work:D

[BUSHSNAKE]

A red snow...cool, 1 out of 32 would be your chances of getting a triple morph,i dont think it matters if theyre all recessive traits or a combination of recessive and co dom traits(like the moonglow boa) this is a morph ive had in mind for a couple of years now, looks like your gonna beat me to it...darn it!

[jitami]

Sorry, Jeff, that is a bummer... can't wait to watch your melanistic baby grow, though!

[aSnakeLovinBabe]

Omg Joe, that's right! I remember talking about that on the phone how you wanted to try and breed that and see what would happen. I hope my pair also turns out het melanistic!!!

[Jeff B]

A red snow...cool, 1 out of 32 would be your chances of getting a triple morph,i dont think it matters if theyre all recessive traits or a combination of recessive and co dom traits(like the moonglow boa) this is a morph ive had in mind for a couple of years now, looks like your gonna beat me to it...darn it!

Even if you call the erythristic a co-dom gene, the calculation is actually 3 in 64 to produce a erythristic snow from this pairing, which would be 2 homogygous recessives (albino and melanistic) plus a co-dom gene (erythristic).
But re-read my post Joe, I don't think it is that simple, because I am not convinced that the erythristic is a single point co-dominant trait, the evidence points more to polygenic inheritance.

[ConcinusMan]

Dang, I can't even wrap my mind around what he just said! ^^^

[aSnakeLovinBabe]

Dang, I can't even wrap my mind around what he just said! ^^^

I can! and I agree, erythristic is waaay too unpredictable to be a single point gene.

[Jeff B]

Shannon,
please call me sometime soon when you get a chance, I would like to discuss some things with you and we have played to much phone tag and I would really like to discuss the chicago projects with you among other things, which is why I was trying to get ahold of you in the first place. I have to go into work for a couple hours in the morning (Sat.) and will be at my parents for easter in the afternoon but other than that.
Jeff

[BUSHSNAKE]

Jeff, no one had ever thought of trying to introduce red pigment into a snow morph before, i got the idea of it with the eastern cause theres no anery trait and now your breeding a red radix to your snow radix so you must have some confidence in it no matter what the chances are, anyway im looking forward to see how my idea pans out....GETRDONE!

[Jeff B]

I wouldn't say "no one" ever thought of it before, weather or not they talked about it openly is another thing;) but either way it hasn't been done YET, so who knows what it will look like, but Scott has crossed flame and melanistic and the melanistic completely masked the red, but who knows what the 3 genes togather will do? Thats the fun of rolling the dice, and hey sometimes you just plain get dumb lucky (like me:D)and something pops out unexpected too, lol. Joe, I see you called, I'll call you tomarrow, I kinda busy tonight.

[ConcinusMan]

I can! and I agree, erythristic is waaay too unpredictable to be a single point gene.

Not to go off topic or hijack but I would be interested in hearing your theories and speculation on how the heck that population of concinnus limited to a very tiny geographic area, all ended up being hypoanerythristic. I didn't see a single normal snake among them. Doesn't sound recessive, so why such a limited area I wonder? I mean, you cannot deny something interesting is going on when all the snakes in that very limited area look like this, some even more faded and yet, normal snakes dominate the entire region and aren't far away from this population:
http://img510.imageshack.us/img510/81/gedc1027.jpg
Since we already had a thread going Maybe we can continue that conversation in our other thread:

http://www.thamnophis.com/forum/showthread.php?t=6665

[BUSHSNAKE]

good question concinnusman, find a gravid female, and when she has babies and depending how they look maybe itll be more clear or do some test breedings

[BUSHSNAKE]

thanks Jeff, sounds like your trying to discredit me, is that what your trying to do?

[Jeff B]

Not at all Joe, but lots of people have thought of these crosses since the original base morphs exsisted, Scott and I talked about it two years ago, who thought of it first I don't know? and I don't think it matters. Untill it's produced its all speculation and pipe dreaming anyway.

[Jeff B]

This is likely an example of isolated or "pocket" population genetics. The genes (rather than a single gene mutation) for less color have been selected or have dominated that population for what ever reason, could be the brighter colored ones were more easily seen and preyed upon, or could just be that a few mutations for less color that are dominant or co-dominant to the brighter reds occured over time and accumulated and became the overwhelming prevelant phenotype in the population in that area due to a lack of outside population genes in that particular area.
However its certainly possible that it is a single point mutation, likely co-dom or dom that has spread, accumulated, and become the most prevelant phenotype in that isolated population to the point that it is essentially the "wild type". There is only one way to find out, breeding trials outcrossing to other snakes with the more normal red from some other location, at least 2 or 3 generations would be required likely to prove or disprove that it is a single heritable gene and what type of inhertance pattern it exhibits.

[BUSHSNAKE]

sorry Jeff, Im just giving you a hard time

[ConcinusMan]

Even if you call the erythristic a co-dom gene, the calculation is actually 3 in 64 to produce a erythristic snow from this pairing, which would be 2 homogygous recessives (albino and melanistic) plus a co-dom gene (erythristic).
But re-read my post Joe, I don't think it is that simple, because I am not convinced that the erythristic is a single point co-dominant trait, the evidence points more to polygenic inheritance.

For some dang reason, after playing around with the advanced genetics wizard, I now understand what he's saying. Depending on the number of genes involved in making orange on concinnus,(could be a yellow gene and a red gene) red on any other snake, and whether or not the genes are dominant or co-dominant, the chances of introducing red and producing a red snow are...

Well, I'm let's just say I'm not placing any bets in favor of that happening. I've also had doubts that this "christmas" iowa albino is something that you can breed to another iowa to produce hets for that "christmas" trait especially if the orange coloring is the result of polygenic inheritance but scott would have to set me straight on that. He has the proven breeding and yet was still surprised by that morph.