Bass, crappie, shiners, and other freshwater scaled fish?

[Kelan]

I saw on another thread that perch meat would be ok but what about other fish I catch? I caught about 50 White bass last week and was wondering if that could be good garter food before I eat it ALL! I just don't wanna feed anything unsafe.

Also, what about whole shiners? I can catch several by cating my net in a clean river near by.

And while I'm at it, are there ANY safe whole fish that can be bought either at a bait or pet shop?

[gregmonsta]

This would be the place to start your research - http://www.thamnophis.com/caresheets/index.php?title=Thiamin,

[Kelan]

http://www.thamnophis.com/caresheets/index.php?title=Thiamin,
The page had no info but I found this and off a link from that found that Blue gill, crappie, and largemouth bass are clean and white bass aren't.

I am still curious about whole small fish that can be bought or caught though.

[Charis]

The local Petco here has whole frozen silversides that are quite decently priced. They are in the freezer in the fish section, rather than the the snake food part.

[guidofatherof5]

List list was lost on the forum when there was a backup error. It will give you and idea about some different fish that might or might not be safe to feed.
http://www.thamnophis.com/forum/showthread.php?t=6654

[Jeff B]

In my mind, aside from the thiaminase issues, I would also be somewhat concerned about the risk of introducing pathogens and parasites, especially the intestinal worm types that may be present in wild caught fish. While those things may or may not have immediate impact and your snake or snakes, and they won't likely die right after you feed them, you may need to weigh those risks for your individual situation, and while those risks may or may not be immediately life threatening to a snake, it my might not be worth the long term risks to a relatively large collection. Not to make you paranoid or rain on the idea, because how big a risk? or how real a threat? or what are your odds of a snake getting a disease or parasite and parishing or spreading that around to other snakes in a collection? I have no idea what that real data is, just my 2 cents and food for thought. Of course snakes in the wild are subject to those same health risks when eating wild fish, but in captivity the entire enviromental conditions and formulas changes, including resistance, and you basically have control of the enviroment and risks to an extent, not nature.
By the way, I absolutely love to fish, congrats on the white bass day, and the thought of feeding fish that I catch has crossed my mind too, I mostly catch crappies, walleye and catfish around here, but I am just not willing to risk it with my collection, I have enough to worry about without another variable, but thats just me and my oppinion.

[guidofatherof5]

I second Jeff's thoughts. We have too many other options when it comes to feeding.
f/t(frozen/thawed) mice products, f/t safe fish(store bought salmon, tilapia, trout) night crawlers. I have used wild caught Crappie fry in the passed but that was after a 2 month freezing period. Depending on the size of your snake Guppies are another option in the lines of a live fish. Garters are very hardy but not indestructible. Once in captivity it's up to us to provide the best possible environment for them:

Clean, large enclosures(they love to explore)
Safe food
Heat source for thermo regulating
Ample clean water for drinking and bathing
A place to hide(they need to feel safe)
Appropriate lighting
Health care

Providing all this gives your snake/s the best possible chance for a long life with you. Garters can live up 20 years. With their individual personalities and longevity to makes for a great relationship/friendship.
They are a special animal that deserves more respect than they get.

[Kelan]

In my mind, aside from the thiaminase issues, I would also be somewhat concerned about the risk of introducing pathogens and parasites, especially the intestinal worm types that may be present in wild caught fish. While those things may or may not have immediate impact and your snake or snakes, and they won't likely die right after you feed them, you may need to weigh those risks for your individual situation, and while those risks may or may not be immediately life threatening to a snake, it my might not be worth the long term risks to a relatively large collection. Not to make you paranoid or rain on the idea, because how big a risk? or how real a threat? or what are your odds of a snake getting a disease or parasite and parishing or spreading that around to other snakes in a collection? I have no idea what that real data is, just my 2 cents and food for thought. Of course snakes in the wild are subject to those same health risks when eating wild fish, but in captivity the entire enviromental conditions and formulas changes, including resistance, and you basically have control of the enviroment and risks to an extent, not nature.
By the way, I absolutely love to fish, congrats on the white bass day, and the thought of feeding fish that I catch has crossed my mind too, I mostly catch crappies, walleye and catfish around here, but I am just not willing to risk it with my collection, I have enough to worry about without another variable, but thats just me and my oppinion.

I'm curious how big the threat is too. I'd be freezing anything I feed to them for a while for that reason but I love my snakes and don't want to take any risks. I just thought it'd be nice to add some variety to my garters diet of mice and occaisionally worms with fish I actually caught.

What's even a bigger issue is that I REALLY need a small whole fish that can be fed live and not be a problem...I'm getting a pair of WC fish eaters that I don't think will eat anything but live wholefish and frogs/tadpoles atleast for a while. Not to mention that I'm afraid to try mice or anything apart from their natural diet as I don't know the results of anyone trying that before, they are rare, and weren't cheap either.

Fishing is great! I love hitting a good spot on a good day and getting good fish after good fish like I did with the whites...I've never caught a Crappie yet and have no idea why other than the fact that they aren't native...just introduced but I'd love to catch crappie sometime!

I appreciate your opinion.

I second Jeff's thoughts. We have too many other options when it comes to feeding.
f/t(frozen/thawed) mice products, f/t safe fish(store bought salmon, tilapia, trout) night crawlers. I have used wild caught Crappie fry in the passed but that was after a 2 month freezing period. Depending on the size of your snake Guppies are another option in the lines of a live fish. Garters are very hardy but not indestructible. Once in captivity it's up to us to provide the best possible environment for them:

Clean, large enclosures(they love to explore)
Safe food
Heat source for thermo regulating
Ample clean water for drinking and bathing
A place to hide(they need to feel safe)
Appropriate lighting
Health care

Providing all this gives your snake/s the best possible chance for a long life with you. Garters can live up 20 years. With their individual personalities and longevity to makes for a great relationship/friendship.
They are a special animal that deserves more respect than they get.
Thanks Steve! I treat my snakes and garters well but appreciate your accurate info.

So would guppies and silversides be safe fish? I think I heard somewhere that guppies were somewhat unsafe but maybe I dreamed it.

And I really agree with that last sentence! I hate the whole "they're just nasty little fish eaters!" attitude a lot of people give them...

[gregmonsta]

And I really agree with that last sentence! I hate the whole "they're just nasty little fish eaters!" attitude a lot of people give them...

It's quite amusing how they get snubbed just for that when it actually makes them easier and cheaper to cater for. My calcium and vitamin drops last me ages (about £10 every 5 months) and one pack of salmon/trout for me is <£5 ..... 100pinkies is >£18 ... If I dropped the salmon/trout I'd double my pinkie bill :eek:

[Charis]

Guppies are usually considered a safe fish. However that can depend on where you are getting them. The feeder ones from the pet store here are in pretty sad shape with kinked spines & they look like some of them might have parasites. But if you can find some healthy ones, they are safe to feed. You might try buying some of the fancy ones, they are usually healthier, and breeding them. Also I think mollies are okay (correct me if I'm wrong) and I've thought about breeding them for live food if I had room for a tank.

[jitami]

What's even a bigger issue is that I REALLY need a small whole fish that can be fed live and not be a problem...I'm getting a pair of WC fish eaters that I don't think will eat anything but live wholefish and frogs/tadpoles atleast for a while. Not to mention that I'm afraid to try mice or anything apart from their natural diet as I don't know the results of anyone trying that before, they are rare, and weren't cheap either.

Kelan, welcome to the forum. You've peaked my curiosity! What are you getting? There are quite a few keepers here and someone may have had success with the species you're getting.... why re-invent the wheel, you know? And if someone here hasn't kept that particular type I really want to know what you're getting! Would love to learn more about some of the less common varieties!

[Kelan]

Thanks for the info Charis!


It's quite amusing how they get snubbed just for that when it actually makes them easier and cheaper to cater for. My calcium and vitamin drops last me ages (about £10 every 5 months) and one pack of salmon/trout for me is <£5 ..... 100pinkies is >£18 ... If I dropped the salmon/trout I'd double my pinkie bill :eek:
I agree! Stupidity CAN be amusing. lol


Kelan, welcome to the forum. You've peaked my curiosity! What are you getting? There are quite a few keepers here and someone may have had success with the species you're getting.... why re-invent the wheel, you know? And if someone here hasn't kept that particular type I really want to know what you're getting! Would love to learn more about some of the less common varieties!

Thanks! I'm getting Liophis Poecilogyrus (not sure of the common name, Ill have to make something up) which is a small south american water snake. They are black and bright yellow...I'm so exited and will try to post pictures here after they come in. I don't know anyone else who has them.

[jitami]

Thanks! I'm getting Liophis Poecilogyrus (not sure of the common name, Ill have to make something up) which is a small south american water snake. They are black and bright yellow...I'm so exited and will try to post pictures here after they come in. I don't know anyone else who has them.

Neat little snake! Sounds like they're big amphibian eaters, too. Please do share pics when you get them :)

[Kelan]

Will do Tami!

[Jeff B]

Yes definately want to see pics of them!

[ConcinusMan]

Besides occasional goldfish, :eek: I used wild frogs, trout fingerlings, amphibians and larvae, night crawlers, everything found where the pair was found. In essence, their natural food which is probably riddled with parasites. Snakes probably had them too, but the snakes were very large, healthy, and lived 20 years. They had already acquired resistance. When you introduce a wild food source they wouldn't normally be eating, they could encounter a parasite for which they have no resistance. As far as the bad enzyme goes, balance is key. They will do in a pinch but balance with thiamine rich foods.

If all your snakes fed and/or housed together are wild, like that pair was I'd say it's not a problem to feed them food from their wild habitat. They either already have parasites or have resistance. Just don't want that stuff in with the generations removed as it could wipe them out.

[guidofatherof5]

Besides occasional goldfish, :eek: I used wild frogs, trout fingerlings, amphibians and larvae, night crawlers, everything found where the pair was found. In essence, their natural food which is probably riddled with parasites. Snakes probably had them too, but the snakes were very large, healthy, and lived 20 years. They had already acquired resistance. When you introduce a wild food source they wouldn't normally be eating, they could encounter a parasite for which they have no resistance. As far as the bad enzyme goes, balance is key. They will do in a pinch but balance with thiamine rich foods.

If all your snakes fed and/or housed together are wild, like that pair was I'd say it's not a problem to feed them food from their wild habitat. They either already have parasites or have resistance. Just don't want that stuff in with the generations removed as it could wipe them out.

Resistance to parasites?
It's more a tolerated situation isn't it. A snake in good health will tolerate a parasite and not show any harmful signs from the intruder. The problem comes when the snake is weak or weakened by illness or old age. Then the presence of the parasite/s can kill them.
If they eat a food source with a parasite load, they will become a host.

[ConcinusMan]

I'm not saying parasites are a good thing. I'm just saying a healthy snake can live with them their entire lives and suffer no apparent harm. More snakes than you know, do just that.

[guidofatherof5]

I'm not saying parasites are a good thing. I'm just saying a healthy snake can live with them their entire lives and suffer no apparent harm.

Using the word resistance is what through me. I understand now what you were saying.

[ConcinusMan]

OK. In this case by "resistance" I meant that their immunity to harm caused by parasites they carry, is high.;)

Might not be the case with a several-generations-removed CB garter.