where to find sub species

[Barak666]

Hi!

I'm thinking of doing an enclosure to keep few garters (see my post in the enclosure section)

I live in Quebec, Canada, so other that the T.s.sirtalis there is no other sub species here, anyway i'm not interest in WC.

The sub-species that I would like to have is a T.S concinnus, they are truly the nicest of the color pattern (in my taste) and probably a T.s.similis (which is my girlfriend favorite). I was thinking to start with 2 males or 2 females and in the future adding one of different gender (will learn to keep them well before thinking about breeding)

First of all, can both of theses sub-species live in the same terrarium?

Is there any breeders amongs you for these sub-species? I'm waiting for informations from the Quebec Government to know about laws for possession and border crossing for theses garters.

The project will be for this summer (minimum : june-july) time to make the terrarium (waiting for the snow to melt before building it) and time to adjusts every parameters.

I'm new in snakes/garters captivity, so your advices are welcomes.

Thank you

Mathieu

[mustang]

hi....well i dont think you can put the different species n same cage also whats wrong with w/cs? i got one and hes great.

[Barak666]

I would prefer to have a breeded garter instead of a W/C, first because of parasites and secondly, I don't want to put unnecessary pressure on wild populations.

And for the cohabitation of both subspecies my Gf will be a bit disappointed, hopefully she is liking the concinnus too ;)

thank you

Mathieu

[jitami]

Hi Mathieu, welcome to the forum :) You can place the different subspecies together as long as they are the same sex and about the same size. The only known cannibalistic garters are T. elegans vegrans (wandering garters). Most garter keepers frown on mixed species or subspecies so you wouldn't want to breed them together, but keeping the same sex together should not be a problem at all.

[Barak666]

:D Thanks a lot

Now the next step is to build the terrarium and then finding young garters of theses 2 sub-species of same sex.

Thanks for the breeding advises ;) what if keeping a female and a male without a brumation period?


Mathieu

[Stefan-A]

The only known cannibalistic garters are T. elegans vegrans (wandering garters).
Plus some of the Mexican species. Apparently they even extracted a baby rattlesnake from one of them.

[gregmonsta]

Thanks for the breeding advises ;) what if keeping a female and a male without a brumation period?



:rolleyes: This would not mean they would not breed. A lot of examples exist of garters breeding without being brumated. So I would not risk this assumption ;).

[guidofatherof5]

:rolleyes: This would not mean they would not breed. A lot of examples exist of garters breeding without being brumated. So I would not risk this assumption ;).

Non-brumated snakes will breed and breed very readily. That is proven out on the Ranch every year.
Garters are little baby making machines and do their darnedest to keep the species going.:D

[Barak666]

Good, I will look to have the same gender for both ;)

Are old should be a young garter to identify the sex?

Thanks

Mathieu

[guidofatherof5]

Good, I will look to have the same gender for both ;)

Are old should be a young garter to identify the sex?

Thanks

Mathieu

Sexing can be easy and sometimes a mystery in the young. I've found that some of the young(T.radix) have to mature a little to be sexed. Here's a link to a thread to help you with sexing any snakes. The thread will also give you a good idea about what photos to post if you want us to help you with sexing your snake/s.
http://www.thamnophis.com/forum/showthread.php?t=5069&highlight=Sexing+pics

[ConcinusMan]

Well done Steve. Good post.

I'm still thinking it won't hurt one bit to put garters of opposite sex together. I mean to imply canadian garters. It's not likely they will breed without distinct seasonal changes. Also very unlikely that they will eat each other. Given plenty of room and plenty of hiding places you could even keep a wide range of sizes together. Just my humble opinion.

I'm keeping T. ordinoides and T. s. concinnus together. As small as 5 inches, all the way up to 28 inches. They get along just fine. They sometimes huddle together just like one big happy family. It's soooo cute. Have to watch out for the concinnus at feeding time though. They will bite and attempt to swallow anything that smells like fish. That includes themselves, other snakes, glass, fingers, footballs, anything!

If it smells like fish, it must be fish and must go down the throat, like NOW!

Good thing my ex isn't around anymore.. oh wait. did I just go there?

[gregmonsta]

I'm still thinking it won't hurt one bit to put garters of opposite sex together. I mean to imply canadian garters. It's not likely they will breed without distinct seasonal changes. Also very unlikely that they will eat each other. Given plenty of room and plenty of hiding places you could even keep a wide range of sizes together. Just my humble opinion.


I still wouldn't chance this at all. I have a red-sided male that shows his willingness to mate without brumation and randomly throughout the year. I would still be a risk in my opinion.

[ConcinusMan]

Not unreasonable to error on the side of caution. All male garters I have had over the years will mate without brumation. It's the females that need to be brumated so they will put out the pheromones to attract the male.

When it comes to sirtalis mixed with ordinoides I don't have to worry about crossbreeding. They simply aren't interested in one another and they are too physically different for a successful mating to take place. I've never found a den site that didn't have both. They also breed in piles together and yet hybrids just don't exist.

How cute is this? One big happy family! (hypoerythristic T. sirtalis concinnus and subadult T. ordinoides from NW Oregon)

http://img715.imageshack.us/img715/6816/gedc1023.jpg

[Barak666]

Well, after reading your comments, I will probably start with garters from the same sex (one or another) learning to know better these animals before putting an another gender in the group and risking having hatchling. ;)




I'm waiting for informations from the Quebec Government to know about laws for possession and border crossing for theses garters.



Well after talking with a MRNF's (fauna ministery) agent, their is no problem from buy and having garters T. sirtalis sub-species in Québec, Canada and they should cross the borders without problems. (This is just T.s. sirtalis who is forbidden to sale).

Thx

Mathieu

[ConcinusMan]

Oh really? Here in the USA it would take a mound of money and paperwork, and months of quarantine to import any garter from another country, including canada. Find out the canada import details for me would you? It could mean it's practical for me to send concinnus offspring to canadian recipients. Perhaps you.

[ConcinusMan]

Sorry, broken keyboard, so bear with me. I still think your statement about import being OK only applies to garter species which are NOT sirtalis, including easterns (T. sirtalis sirtalis) and concinnus (T. sirtalis concinnus) and perhaps they allow others such as T. marcinanus or T. RadiX since the latter two are not native and not likely to breed with the snakes in the wild. If that's not right, Ill tell you that WA State USA is just the opposite. import of sirtalis (any ssp.) is illegal since T. sirtalis(concinnus) are native. Also keep in mind, there are two different ssp of "red-sided" garters. see todays posts in this thread starting at post #43. It's relevant to the subject of snakes mating out of season: http://www.thamnophis.com/forum/showthread.php?t=6457&page=5
(http://www.thamnophis.com/forum/showthread.php?t=6457&page=5)

[Barak666]

Hi, when I speaked with the fauna agent, I mentioned to him that the concinnus was a sub-specie of T. sirtalis other that the T.s. sirtalis we have in Gaspesie. Then he call is superior in Quebec city and told me after that, that in the province of Québec laws there is no problems for having or buying these garters outside of Quebec, the only act forbidden is to catch sirtalis sirtalis for selling them, otherwise it is legal to keep them in captivity (they don't mention the other sub-species) and there should be no problem with th border crossing. But, just to be sure, I wrote to the border agency of Canada and Canadian Food InspectionAgency (who deal with animal importation) to make sure there is no federal laws against importing living animal. Because it is the easter holiday, I'm going to have the answer only next week.

Thanks for all the advises, I let you know once I have news for the federal goverment.

Mathieu

[Barak666]

I just received an answer from the Canadian food inspection agency : here what they send me (I give you the English version)

http://www.inspection.gc.ca/english/anima/imp/petani/amphe.shtml

I'm still waiting for the border agency answer, but it look good with the inspection agency.

Good day to you

Mathieu

[ConcinusMan]

So, it looks like it's an open Canadian border for any garter snake species to enter from the USA or other country and there's no quarantine, permits, etc. to stop, delay, or make it expensive. Why should T.s. sirtalis be any different?

They just want to prevent native snakes being collected, exported and sold as a commodity because they are already an asset for tourism at the dens, and for other reasons. The question remains then, does it make a difference if it's a T. sirtalis concinnus or a T. sirtalis sirtalis? would it make any difference if it was a CB genetic morph of T. sirtalis sirtalis? (genetic morphs that are different in appearance provide an opportunity for being misidentified for something other than t.s. sirtalis).

Like the original subject of this thread is "where to find subspecies". Well, many of the members here breed garter snakes. Some of the breeders have easterns (T.s.sirtalis) but there are many other great garters (not sirtalis by species or subspecies at all) you can import to quebec with no hassles.

With all that cleared up, it sounds like you could have a CA red-sided or Oregon Red-spotted without breaking the law and without any hassles at the border.

There are restrictions when it comes to shipping to canada though. Can't go through USPS. USPS does not legally ship live reptiles and since it will get inspected/opened at the border that might work for US destinations but not for canada. I can't seem to find out if shipyourreptiles.com will ship to quebec or not. Their form won't accept canadian postal codes.

I have to tell you that it will be expensive to ship a snake to you, even if I only charged for shipping. Probably around $100 US dollars for express (1-3 days) shipping cost.

I still think you can catch a local eastern garter and keep it. That's what most other quebec members do. Your other options are very expensive.

[Barak666]

Hi, Well it look like you're right, the T.sirtalis sirtalis, can be imported, it's more about wild catch them and sell them who is forbidden.

I know there are other kind of red spotted garter than concinnus, but I truly like theses (especially the high red ones) so if possible I'm ready to put a bit more for them ;).

I just exchange e-mail with a colleague from the Montreal Biodome, who import animals for their living collection from US.

He told me that the best for shipping animal is aerial companies, the more direct as possible, there is no problems on Canadian side of the border, but to cross the US border, there are one or two exportation certificates to obtain from USFWS and USDA (don't really know how these works and the costs of these certificate)

[ConcinusMan]

Like I said before. For a USA destination, a snake coming from another country would be too dang expensive. Mounds of paperwork and expense.