Pugets or Checkered?

[lokai99]

So... I have spent the last few months trying to decided what species I'll get for my first garter and I am stuck between Pugets and Checkered. I'm leaning toward marcianus though, because I'm somewhat afraid I would get a Pugets that would simply refuse to ever switch to pinkies. I also want a garter I can actually find... those blue guys seem to be a little hard to find. Can anyone give me an idea of what I should expect to pay for a checkered? I'd also appreciate knowing if someone is expecting Checkereds this season.
one corn, one milk, and one king, one rat.... I def. think it's time for a garter to join the family

[guidofatherof5]

Yes, yes, yes. It is time, indeed.
I can't help you find one but I'm sure others can.:)

[mustang]

what state are you in? i caught mine

[jitami]

Generally you will have an easier time finding captive bred checkereds than pugets, but you never know. Hopefully some of the breeders that frequent the forum will get back to you with what they may have available this year, but really it's all about your preference. Good luck finding your first fascinating garter :)

[aSnakeLovinBabe]

I should have checkereds this year, considering I just peeked in on one of the tubs I have an exceptionally nice pair in and she has just shed and he was line up next to her and tail wrapping! I've got a lot of checkereds. I have 2 female albinos, 1 yellow male, 2 green females, 1 hypo male, and 1.1 double het granite albino that are breedable. Then I have a granite female and a possible new line of hypo that's not quite there yet!

Checkereds are rather easy to find, but believe it or not I actually had a really hard time finding a good looking, adult pair that was totally unrelated to the albino lines. The albinos are everywhere now!!! I would sell normal checkered babies for between $20-$30 each. Even that is high, but my checkereds are really nice looking specimens.

Pugets are a bit harder but are not impossible to find. Provided Wayne's male Sky gets the job done on both of my females, we should have two very nice clutches of pugets from extremely blue parents! I am sure others on here will be producing these species as well...

I am a bit confused that you're worried your pugets won't eat pinkies... Every puget I've worked with loves them!!!

[lokai99]

Well, I'm thinking the Checkered is the way to go probably unless that puget girl is gravid. The blue is pretty amazing. Idea....one of each...now that really would be the way to go.
Ok...now to the pinkie concerns. I was concerned that Pugets preferred a more fish based diet, but if in your experience they don't that's even better news.
I checked out the green checkereds, and the albino both of those were beautiful colors...
What colors do you expect out of your Gravid girls?

[aSnakeLovinBabe]

Well, I'm thinking the Checkered is the way to go probably unless that puget girl is gravid. The blue is pretty amazing. Idea....one of each...now that really would be the way to go.
Ok...now to the pinkie concerns. I was concerned that Pugets preferred a more fish based diet, but if in your experience they don't that's even better news.
I checked out the green checkereds, and the albino both of those were beautiful colors...
What colors do you expect out of your Gravid girls?

it really depends on what they breed to... I am breeding my prettiest green female to my hypo male checkered. That is going to produce both normals and hypos, but since both animals are very bright and vivid, with good solid checkers and pretty greens I would expect nice green offspring. One of my albino females has much smaller checkers and increased areas of yellow and she is packed with color... I'm breeding her to my yellow male. I find him to be extremely attractive and I'd really like to reproduce the brilliant yellow from tha pairing I am hoping for bright yellows. I'm breeding the other albino female to the hypo male. From that pairing I would expect pretty average looking checkereds. My smaller green female... I'm not sure if I'll breed her this year, she's not really as attractive as the larger one and she might need a rest after last year's babies! The double hets for albino and granite are small and it's their first breeding season, so if they DO produce I'd expect to see normals, a few albinos, a few granites and possibly an albino granite.

As for pugets, I generally start babies on rodent pieces mixed in with worms and fish early on to get them used to the taste and smell. Personally, before I sell baby garters I get them eating a varied diet and wait until they are accepting pinkies/pinky pieces before I sell them. I do that so that whoever buys them can choose what they want to feed them instead of the snake being hooked on one thing!

[ConcinusMan]

I am a bit confused that you're worried your pugets won't eat pinkies... Every puget I've worked with loves them!!!

I hear the same thing about CB concinnus. They love their pinkies. However, you must understand that pinkies are not on the menu for WC pugets or concinnus. That's NOT what they eat in the wild! No, No, noperoo! uh-uh!

They eat worms, amphibians and larvae, and fish. That is why they are good swimmers and are almost never found far from water or seasonal wetlands. They couldn't care less about the water. That's where the food is.

I imagine that you could get WC concinnus to eat pinkies but it better smell like fish! They will attempt to swallow a football as long as it smells like fish.

Believe it or not, Amy is the same way. (iowa strain albino radix) Can't get her to eat anything unless it smells like fish. When she's really hungry she lunges into the air with mouth open just because she smells fish.

This is no problem for me. I chop up pinkies, rub a silverside head on the parts and she devours them. No fish smell and she checks it out and moves on as if to say "where's the real food?" She's even started to look up at my face as if to say "you expect me to eat that?"

Throw in some fish or fish smell and she's like.. "umm numm numm.. thanks dad!"

[aSnakeLovinBabe]

I hear the same thing about CB concinnus. They love their pinkies. However, you must understand that pinkies are not on the menu for WC pugets or concinnus. That's NOT what they eat in the wild! No, No, noperoo! uh-uh!

They eat worms, amphibians and larvae, and fish. That is why they are good swimmers and are almost never found far from water or seasonal wetlands. They couldn't care less about the water. That's where the food is.

I imagine that you could get WC concinnus to eat pinkies but it better smell like fish! They will attempt to swallow a football as long as it smells like fish.

Believe it or not, Amy is the same way. (iowa strain albino radix) Can't get her to eat anything unless it smells like fish. When she's really hungry she lunges into the air with mouth open just because she smells fish.

This is no problem for me. I chop up pinkies, rub a silverside head on the parts and she devours them. No fish smell and she checks it out and moves on as if to say "where's the real food?" She's even started to look up at my face as if to say "you expect me to eat that?"

Throw in some fish or fish smell and she's like.. "umm numm numm.. thanks dad!"

Haha, my snakes get fish a the majority of their food. But I will say this, all of my concinnus adults aside from one are originally from the wild and every one has accepted unscented, f/t pinkies right off the bat! When I bought Blueblie about 4 years ago from that Bob guy and didn't know any better, she was fresh out of the wild and also ate them like they are candy! In fact the concinnus and pugets I've worked with have never turned anything away!

[ConcinusMan]

That's very interesting to know. In 25 years or so, I've never gotten a wild concinnus to eat any kind of rodent. The current ones also turned their noses up at pinkies. Then I introduced a silversides fish and it was a no-holds-barred feeding frenzy!

It would probably be very easy to throw in a fish head when thawing the pinkies then I'm sure they would eat them.

EDIT: All three of my concinnus (actually some of them are yours soon shannon) just ate fish scented pinkies. For two of them, it was their first meal in months (just came out of brumation)

Good news. All are feeding well. breeding can't be far away now!

[aSnakeLovinBabe]

woo hooooo!!! Haha, I am really surprised that you've never had any that liked unflavored rodents... I guess it's just that they all have their own preferences! Glad to hear everyone is eating! my snakes are eating me out of house and home right now.. I am just glad i have all my fingers!

[lokai99]

I'm really excited and looking forward to getting my first garter. I'm sure my roomies are too. We already have mice and pinkies in the freezer and I think some fish for scenting will round out the mix nicely. Pinkie and tetra salad anyone?
Question about fish... I know goldfish are a nono...is there a specific fish that I should use in a mixed diet? Are there any other fish I need to steer away from?

[bkhuff1s]

Well in this forum I would imagine you would be able to find whatever your heart desires. My Puget's do not feed on a strictly rodent diet, because I'm not sure about feeding them a full mouse, seems a bit big. This leaves pinkies and thus not enough of the vitamins they need. (I could be mistaken, but that's just what I've gathered) Every week they get a pinky in salmon slices (purchased from wal mart) which has a dose of reptile calcium and a few other things.

[lokai99]

My roomates are so glad I'm preparing to get a garter. They absolutely love the fact that we have mice and pinkies in the freezer already. Perhaps I can interest them in a pinkie and tetra-tretrazini.
As far as feeding fish...what have you others used and had good results with using?

Ahhh I really can't wait to start seeing some more babies. I'm trying to get well versed in garters before anyone comes.What does shipping usually run?

I think I am going to shoot for a pugets...and a checkered. I think I must have both haha.

[bkhuff1s]

I am afraid you've become afflicted with garteritis, unfortunately it's incurable and contagious. You're going to have to quarantined until the urge to purchase at least one of every subspecies passes.... best of luck to you....

[lokai99]

This sounds serious.... I'm telling myself that just two subspecies will be enough....perhaps it's the garter fever causing denial....dear dear dear

[ConcinusMan]

Yup. ^^^ Right now, Lokai99 has garteritis in the incubation stage. Once a sweet tempered garter is in the house, lokai99 is a gonner for sure. Incurable. My mom doesn't even particularly like snakes. She always comes around when she meets one of my sweet garter snakes. Doesn't take long before she loves them too. They've even all but cured a few people I know, of their intense phobias.(irrational fear of harmless snakes)


Well in this forum I would imagine you would be able to find whatever your heart desires. My Puget's do not feed on a strictly rodent diet, because I'm not sure about feeding them a full mouse, seems a bit big. This leaves pinkies and thus not enough of the vitamins they need. (I could be mistaken, but that's just what I've gathered) Every week they get a pinky in salmon slices (purchased from wal mart) which has a dose of reptile calcium and a few other things.

Sounds like an OK diet but it need not be that expensive and go easy on the supplements, they don't need much and NOT every feeding. Most pet stores have frozen silversides and they are whole fish and about the right size. Whole fish are better than slices. Also, the frozen silversides are usually already enriched with plenty of calcium and vitamins. Pinks are nearly complete nutrition without supplements, better than just the fish, it's just that I think they shouldn't get pinks exclusively. Something easier and faster to digest, with more water content (like fish and worms) should be given to pugets and concinnus, and other fish/amphibian eating garters in my opinion. You can dispute that but you cannot dispute that is what they eat most of in the wild.
Many will also say they don't need full spectrum lighting or mild UV exposure. Perhaps they can live without it, but they always do better with it in my experience (albinos being the exception, don't use bright light OR UV) Wild caught garters just do not thrive without natural daylight or simulated sunlight. My CB garters also are more active and eat better too, with a low UVB/UVA exposure daily.

@ bkhuff1s: That is very admirable of you to join the forum and learn more BEFORE you actually get a garter. That's very responsible.

@lokai99: Most, if not all fish eating garters don't mind if it's already dead (frozen and thawed) Any pet store with a significant aquarium section should have silversides in the freezer. Since fish are mostly water and pinks are higher in protein, I just get the snakes all worked up eating fish, and slip a fish scented pinky in and they don't know the difference. If they'll take pinks by themselves, fine, but mixing with fish isn't a bad idea.

Knowing my luck, if shannon were to acquire these snakes I speak of, they would eat unscented pinkies and make me put my foot in my mouth.

[bkhuff1s]

@ bkhuff1s: That is very admirable of you to join the forum and learn more BEFORE you actually get a garter. That's very responsible.

Well I wish I could say I joined before but it was after I had made the purchase. It's been a while, but someone here turned me from kingsnake to here.. dekay I think...

However I do months of research before hand. Before purchasing my Green Tree Python I did YEARS of research relating to them...

I buy frozen pinks for my pugets, however they will not eat them unless they smell like Salmon, go figure....

[ConcinusMan]

Oh, sorry. That was supposed to be directed at lokai.

It doesn't surprise me one bit that your pugets only eat the pinkies if they think it's fish. Same goes for my concinnus. They live in the same kind of wild habitat and eat the same foods. Nice blue pugets can be found just 100 miles north of me. There's even an integration zone and hybrids are found occasionally. Red spotted/cheeked and yet still slightly blue ones can be found there in an area where concinnus and pugets can be found. Or at least, so I'm told.

[bkhuff1s]

I'm jealous, I wish I lived close to their habitat. I just found out that I'm not allowed to sell or buy Easterns because I live in MO and it's illegal to sell or buy native species, it effectively removes about half of what I wanted :(

[ConcinusMan]

You think that's bad, I live in WA and any law that applies to sirtalis (including easterns) applies to ALL sirtalis. They don't differentiate subspecies. That means ANY sirtalis would be considered native when it comes to the law, even though we only have Thamnophis sirtalis concinnus. An eastern is obviously not native to WA but it's a thamnophis sirtalis and that's all that matters. They don't care about the third part of the name (ssp). I mean, that makes as much sense as making it a felony to possess any thamnophis sirtalis just because a San Fransisco garter is a thamnophis sirtalis. At least CA has enough sense to say, yes, not all t. sirtalis are the same snake.

They went a step farther and made it illegal for pet stores to sell any garter snake in WA including garters that are not sirtalis such as T. radix. Private collectors can still sell them however. The only thamnophis allowed for sale in PET STORES are eastern ribbon snakes. I guess because it's easy to see that they are not garters and they are definitely not sirtalis.

[bkhuff1s]

Well that's is a step further than mine, thanks for the cheer up. :) Sorry for you :(

[ConcinusMan]

I'm still thinking that "no buying or selling easterns" thing (native wildlife) Doesn't necessarly apply to a situation such as buying an eastern morph from a breeder from another state legally. They just don't want wildlife being collected and ending in pet stores for sale. In other words it still may be legal for you to buy an eastern legally from a breeder out of state, and it still could possibly be legal to collect one from private property and keep it in your state. I'm just saying don't take that one little bit of the law and think it's that simple. It rarely is.