erythristic?

[Snakers]

hello this is my baby female rose and would like to know if she is considered erythristic.(here right after dinner;))http://i43.tinypic.com/awss5i.jpghttp://i39.tinypic.com/25zmnnn.jpg

[gregmonsta]

:rolleyes: I don't see any red .... so no.

[Snakers]

:rolleyes: I don't see any red .... so no.
well i see that most erythristics are brownish so i just gave it a thought:o

[gregmonsta]

Even a 'brownish' erythristic will still have an orangy/red coming through it ;)

[Snakers]

Even a 'brownish' erythristic will still have an orangy/red coming through it ;)
aw man what will she look like when shes older then?

[gregmonsta]

I have no idea. She looks like she'll be a lovely adult. I don't see her colours changing much if she's not erythristic. She'll just be a lovely normal Eastern garter :D

[Snakers]

I have no idea. She looks like she'll be a lovely adult. I don't see her colours changing much if she's not erythristic. She'll just be a lovely normal Eastern garter :DI still love her any way shes has a very nice attitude:D

[guidofatherof5]

It's great you like her no matter what.
Some of my favorite radixs are the generic ones.

[infernalis]

Here's one for you....

http://www.thamnophis.us/cherry/EFlame.jpg

[Snakers]

hmm Roses's mom was a normal eastern and her dad was erythristic, so if i breed Rose to a het ery. or an ery. she will have ery. babies?

[ConcinusMan]

Don't listen to infernalis, that ery flame is mine. Yeah, mine. (just kidding, and dreaming)

[infernalis]

I don't think even Scott could have predicted how much that one was going to color up as it aged, She was a rather bland looking baby.

Thanks for the compliment.

[ConcinusMan]

I just wish that somebody would get a line of amelanistic concinnus going!

[infernalis]

I just wish that somebody would get a line of amelanistic concinnus going!


That would look sweet!

Someone would have to find an "original specimen" first, Then chances are
Scott Felzer would wind up with it.;)

[ConcinusMan]

You're probably right. I brought this up before and somebody told me there was an albino concinnus once somewhere but I can't find a pic. They said it was lavender where the black should be. Now combine that with ery and that would be awesome.

[infernalis]

I never heard of an erythristic concinnus before, If you crossed an Eastern with a concinnus that would be a very bad thing to do.

Thamnophis hybridization is largely frowned upon.

[ConcinusMan]

erythristic: a condition marked by exceptional prevalence of red pigmentation.

I meant that definition and indeed there are plenty that fit it. (I've never seen them in the wild but have in the hobby) I meant an albino with one of those blood red (and red headed) concinnus.

[BUSHSNAKE]

I think the term Erythristic gets thrown around way to much!

[ConcinusMan]

Yeah, I know what you mean. A flame eastern already has more red/orange than a normal eastern but if it's extremely red and more of it, I suppose it could be considered ery. A concinnus already has red/orange too so I guess the term could apply there too if it is very dark blood red since the majority of them are orange. Note the definition. It's not necessarily a gene like with albinos. The definition says "exceptional" presence of red, meaning, more than most.

even more confusing is that people use the term to describe snakes that normally have yellow on them, but it don't. If that's true, than I guess a "snow" can actually be an anerythristic (lacking normal red or yellow, or orange like my avatar) amelanistic.

You could drive yourself insane with this! Just consider a erythristic as a snake with more red than most of it's kind, an anerythristic wilth no red/orange or highly reduced red/orange from the norm and you'll be OK.

[BUSHSNAKE]

i think thats a bad statement, i dont consider a snake with more red to be always Erythristic, you can call it that, but i wouldnt

[ConcinusMan]

i think thats a bad statement, i dont consider a snake with more red to be always Erythristic, you can call it that, but i wouldnt


That's the definition. Now, for example if a flame eastern is to be called a "erythristic flame eastern" it would have to have considerably more red than most flame easterns. I wouldn't call just any flame eastern erythristic. Furthermore, I wouldn't call a red phase radix erythristic just because most radixes aren't red. Red radixes are normal. I would only call it erythristic if that red radix had considerably more red than most red phase radixes.

I would call a concinnus with dark red, and more of it, erythristic because it's more red than most.

It's quite a subjective term according to definition. There's definitely room for abuse of the term.

In related news... Why is it that concinnus are so prized for their striking orange or red and yet people are tripping over themselves to get the anery (lacking red) concinnus I have? Weird.

Not all of these anery's lack orange pigment. Some are just highly reduced pigment. In that case they are still anerythristic. Having no red, or highly reduced red when compared to most concinnus.

[BUSHSNAKE]

a flame that is called erythristic flame is a offspring of a flame bred to an erythristic eastern and is showing both traits

[ConcinusMan]

Thanks for that explanation. Makes sense but that would mean a red radix would be called erythrisitic wouldn't it? Even if it had no more red than any other red radix. Not quite sure I can accept that use of the term.

[MasSalvaje]

This a a pic of a erythristic female.

http://i301.photobucket.com/albums/nn48/Massalvaje/DSCN9060.jpg

Here is a pic of the same snake as a baby.

http://i301.photobucket.com/albums/nn48/Massalvaje/DSCN6470.jpg

As was stated before, Wayne's pic is of a snake that manifests both the Ery trait and the Flame trait.

-Thomas

[ConcinusMan]

The anerythristic easterns carry a co-dominant trait if I'm not mistaken. That just might be the case with these WC anerythristic concinnus I have. Every snake I saw in that area was either black and white, or had a pale yellow stripe and just a hint of orange in the spots. Didn't see a normal orange concinnus among them.

Is the flame gene co-dom as well or is it recessive?

[Snakers]

This a a pic of a erythristic female.

http://i301.photobucket.com/albums/nn48/Massalvaje/DSCN9060.jpg

Here is a pic of the same snake as a baby.

http://i301.photobucket.com/albums/nn48/Massalvaje/DSCN6470.jpg

As was stated before, Wayne's pic is of a snake that manifests both the Ery trait and the Flame trait.

-Thomas
how much did that snake cost?

[infernalis]

A good price guide can be found here...

http://www.albinogartersnake.com/

[Snakers]

A good price guide can be found here...

http://www.albinogartersnake.com/Thats were i check but he doesn't have regular erythristic prices

[ConcinusMan]

OK, I just found the answer to the last question I asked. Both the flame gene and erythristc are co-dominant.

If that's the case, WTF are flame easterns so expensive? Breed one flame to another and you get flames. What's so hard about that?

[infernalis]

OK, I just found the answer to the last question I asked. Both the flame gene and erythristc are co-dominant.

If that's the case, WTF are flame easterns so expensive? Breed one flame to another and you get flames. What's so hard about that?


It's all about the colour. Some flames get duller as they age, some get screaming red.

Sure it's an easy breeding project, but only a percentage of the offspring will be "high end"

I feel very blessed that mine are cherry red and get brighter with every shed.

Wayne's Garter Snakes (http://www.thamnophis.com/forum/showthread.php?t=6596)

[aSnakeLovinBabe]

OK, I just found the answer to the last question I asked. Both the flame gene and erythristc are co-dominant.

If that's the case, WTF are flame easterns so expensive? Breed one flame to another and you get flames. What's so hard about that?

Because even when you breed flame to flame, not all of the babies are screamers and there are different qualities in each type of flame. When you breed a flame to a normal your chances of producing a screamer are reduced and as you keep breeding flames to more normals you weaken the reds and oranges and over time they can become watered down. If you want top notch flames every breeding, the best way to go would be to pair up two really awesome flames, and even then your results vary greatly. And yes, a red plains actually is an erythristic plains. They are also born normal and grow into their red coloration! That's the thing with these red genes, even with flames, they are not one bit predictable. You just don't know what you are going to get with them! That is one thing that causes really nice erythristics to fetch high price tags. And technically, a flame garter snake is erythristic. Hyper-erythristic simply means increased red pigmentation. Flame is a totally different gene and gives off a totally different expression than other erythristic, mainly that they are born visibly red, but they are still erythristic nonetheless.

The pale concinnus you have been finding, if they still have hints of color could be considered Hypo-erythristic, because they have reduced amounts red, but are not 100% lacking it.

[Snakers]

How much does scott price his erythristics and flames at?

[ConcinusMan]

Because even when you breed flame to flame, not all of the babies are screamers and there are different qualities in each type of flame. When you breed a flame to a normal your chances of producing a screamer are reduced and as you keep breeding flames to more normals you weaken the reds and oranges and over time they can become watered down. If you want top notch flames every breeding, the best way to go would be to pair up two really awesome flames, and even then your results vary greatly. And yes, a red plains actually is an erythristic plains. They are also born normal and grow into their red coloration! That's the thing with these red genes, even with flames, they are not one bit predictable. You just don't know what you are going to get with them! That is one thing that causes really nice erythristics to fetch high price tags. And technically, a flame garter snake is erythristic. Hyper-erythristic simply means increased red pigmentation. Flame is a totally different gene and gives off a totally different expression than other erythristic, mainly that they are born visibly red, but they are still erythristic nonetheless.

The pale concinnus you have been finding, if they still have hints of color could be considered Hypo-erythristic, because they have reduced amounts red, but are not 100% lacking it.

Sorry guys, I know we were talking about erythristic snakes but I must diverge for a moment since Anerythristic is part of this subject.

Some of the concinnus are completely lacking orange/red. Of the three I have now, the male which is most lacking is yours. :D But I still wouldn't call the spots white and I wouldn't call these snakes black and white. Seems like there's some kind of color there. Hard to explain. I should be calling them Hypo-erythristic then? I dunno about that and I refer back to the definition of

Anerythristic:
A mutation showing reduced or no red color. (reduced being the key word)

erythristic: a condition marked by exceptional prevalence of red pigmentation. (exceptional being the key word)

Just when I thought I had it straight, Shannon comes along and shatters my reality.

I love it when that happens. :p

As you can see from my avatar, some color is there in the cheeks but that's as intense as it gets for most of the snakes I saw or have. That one is a female and is promised to Don. Basically they give the overall impression of a snake that has had it's colors diluted, with the exception of black coloration. That seems normal. The degree of dilution varies among all the snakes in this population, but all I saw were diluted.

I must get more photos to better sample the overall population but I'm quite excited still, to find such an unusual population of concinnus even if they aren't truly anerythristic. I would be equally excited to find erythristic concinnus. My local concinnus are just somewhere in between with most having very rich blue/green throats and very black on the tops of their heads.

[drache]

How much does scott price his erythristics and flames at?
http://albinogartersnake.com/pricing.htm
http://albinogartersnake.com/pricing.htm

[Stefan-A]

Anerythristic:
A mutation showing reduced or no red color. (reduced being the key word)
An-, a-: lacking.
Hypo-: reduced.

[aSnakeLovinBabe]

An-, a-: lacking.
Hypo-: reduced.
yes, that was where I was getting. The prefix an- before a word means completely lacking. That definition is incorrect. But having a hypoerythristic concinnus is not any less cool than having an anerythristic!!!

[ConcinusMan]

OK thanks for setting me straight on that. I guess the snake you have coming shannon, is now redifined as hypoerythristic. But he's VERY hypo. Something else stuck out to me on one of Scotts ads."Anerythristic plains"

Ummm.... I thought they all lacked red except for the red ones, obviously so what does he mean?

[MasSalvaje]

Erythrin pigments are the ones being referred to here which include oranges and yellows also not only red. Therefore a specimen that is Anerythristic is lacking all erythrin not just the reds.

There are also yellows found in other pigments that are unrelated to the erythrin that is why you often see some Anerythristic animals exhibiting yellows, primarily on their neck and most notably in Corn Snakes.

http://i301.photobucket.com/albums/nn48/Massalvaje/DSCN9051.jpg

-Thomas

[ConcinusMan]

I think I saw that picture before. Color wise it looks a lot like an ordinoides I found once or twice (actually 3 times in my life) but I thought they were melanistic. That's not a melanistic? So I'll assume it's just a anerythristic dark phase radix? It's clear that I have so much more to learn about garters. I thought I knew just about everything 'till I found this amazing community of garter breeders!

[BUSHSNAKE]

since when did Erythrin pigments have to do with yellow?

[Stefan-A]

since when did Erythrin pigments have to do with yellow?
Yellow isn't always caused by xanthine.

edit: I made the assumption here that the chromatophores in question actually use erythrine and xanthine. I have not confirmed it.

[BUSHSNAKE]

do you have a good example?

[Stefan-A]

do you have a good example?
Well, the corn snake was already mentioned. Is there something about them that I've possible overlooked?

[BUSHSNAKE]

whats that an example of? whats the connection?

[BUSHSNAKE]

anery corns have yellow pigment

[Stefan-A]

anery corns have yellow pigment
But not all of it and the gene that prevents the production of red pigment in anery corns also seems to remove much of the normal orange and yellow. The yellow along the throat on the anery should be produced by something unaffected by the mutation.

[BUSHSNAKE]

how much yellow do you think a corn has?

[Stefan-A]

how much yellow do you think a corn has?
Depends on how you define yellow, depends on the corn and depends on the lighting.

[MasSalvaje]

since when did Erythrin pigments have to do with yellow?

Good question. I probably did not word it very well, so in an attempt to explain it a little better I will refer to Jeff Benfer's words found at this link:


http://gartersnakemorph.com/Snake-Genetics.php

And share these words of his:

Anerythristic is a genetic mutation that causes the lack of erythrin resulting in a color dull snake of blacks and grays, sometimes blueish or greenish gray, which actually make for a beautiful snake even though it lacks the bright reds, oranges and yellows. The terms anerythristic and axanthic with their respective applications and usage, can be a bit confusing to say the least, especially if you look at their usage within multiple different snake groups. Keep in mind that these terms are merely an attempt to distiguish and describe the visual phenotype, and is often simply a guess a what is occuring on the biochemical pigment level. Often times what determines weather a morph is called anerythristic versus axanthic is relative to what has changed in the morph when compared to the base or wild type colors. Some examples of anerythristics and axanthics also appear to also have an increase in black color or melanin, and could arguable be called melanistic as well, such is the case with the anerythristic plains garter.
The anerythristic plains garter is a jet black snake with black eyes, yet it still retains its checkering pattern and is not a solid black snake like the melanistic eastern.

So when it comes down to it, it is about what appears to be happening visually not necessarily what is happening chemically.

And to ConcinnusMan, I hope this statement better answers your questions on the differences between Anerythristic and Melanistic.

I highly recommend Jeff's genetics page! there is a lot of good info that comes from someone that I would guess has more knowledge on the subject than any of us, and the best part is he makes it simple to understand.

-Thomas

[BUSHSNAKE]

the anerythristic and axathic morphs in this hobby of ours are true to the name(anery boa, axanthic bullsnake,anery hondo milk,axanthic hognose,axanthic brooks king and as far as the anery plains garters go they are melanistic and they act axanthic when bred to an albino CUZZZ it takes away the YELLOW

[MasSalvaje]

the anerythristic and axathic morphs in this hobby of ours are true to the name(anery boa, axanthic bullsnake,anery hondo milk,axanthic hognose,axanthic brooks king and as far as the anery plains garters go they are melanistic and they act axanthic when bred to an albino CUZZZ it takes away the YELLOW

I don't think you explained that very clearly. I understand what you are saying but I disagree with you on the fact that the hobby is always true to the name. I will give you two examples of when it is not true to the name, anery kenyan sand boas, and corn snakes. Both of which do have natural yellows throughout the body which do not always express themselves in the anerythristic specimens.

An anerythristic plains always acts axanthic, not only when it is bred to an albino (I guess since we are going technical we should say amelanistic).

How would you best describe the names melanistic, anerythristic, and axanthic in the plains morphs as they are now identified?

-Thomas

[BUSHSNAKE]

in what other way does the anery plains act axanthic?