What Garter Do I Have?

[Nova89]

Hi, I am new to this board. I have had my garter snake for almost a year now. I bought it in July of 2006. To this day, I still have no clue or whatsoever on what kind of garter snake this is. It eats like crazy, and it never seems to get bigger. Does anyone know why? And what kind of snake is it? Is it even a boy or a girl? Please let me know ASAP. :eek:

[adamanteus]

Looks like an Eastern to me. T.s.sirtalis.

[Cazador]

T.s. sirtalis. Looks like you might have a fully-grown male, which would explain its lack of growth. If you give us a clear, side shot of its vent and the next several inches toward its tail, we could probably tell you for sure. Another picture of the same area from the underside would also be nice.

Rick

[Nova89]

T.s. sirtalis. Looks like you might have a fully-grown male, which would explain its lack of growth. If you give us a clear, side shot of its vent and the next several inches toward its tail, we could probably tell you for sure. Another picture of the same area from the underside would also be nice.

Rick

Are u serious? That snake is fully grown?? I thought it was a teen or something. I will post some new shots soon! It was fed today so I dont want to handle it too much and upset it.

[Cazador]

I could be wrong, but a lot of T.s. sirtalis males remain fairly small. How about measuring it when you get a chance? Sometimes it's hard to judge size without a frame of reference.

[GarterGuy]

Hmmmmm....not entirely sure it's an Eastern (T.s.sirtalis).....might be a Butler's (T.butleri). Is this a snake that you bought or one that you caught? (and no I did NOT try to make a rhyme, I wouldn't waste my time :D ) Anways, it'd help a lot for ID, knowing where the snake came from. Also some more detailed shots of the head, especially where it meets the neck (from above shots) would help to differenciate between sirtalis and butleri.
Roy

[RedSided]

Its hard to mark the growth, from the first pic it looked female to me the rear end did seem to have a more noticeable taper ,but in the other pics it looks male, can't be sure either way without another pic.

[Nova89]

Ok I took some more pics of "it" today so I hope you can help me now.

[Nova89]

And more...

[Nova89]

Hmmmmm....not entirely sure it's an Eastern (T.s.sirtalis).....might be a Butler's (T.butleri). Is this a snake that you bought or one that you caught? (and no I did NOT try to make a rhyme, I wouldn't waste my time :D ) Anways, it'd help a lot for ID, knowing where the snake came from. Also some more detailed shots of the head, especially where it meets the neck (from above shots) would help to differenciate between sirtalis and butleri.
Roy

Oh yeah, I bought this snake from Petland in NYC. It was labeled as a Northern Garter Snake, but when I did research I couldn't find any thing on any Northern Garter.

[adamanteus]

I still think it's a T.s.sirtalis. And I think it's a male.

[RedSided]

The shots from above don't coclusively sex it but I would sway closer towards male becasue there is not a noticable taper after its rear end (or cloaca).It may still have some growing to do, what size vivarium do you keep it in?

As for subspecies I have no idea.

[Nova89]

The shots from above don't coclusively sex it but I would sway closer towards male becasue there is not a noticable taper after its rear end (or cloaca).It may still have some growing to do, what size vivarium do you keep it in?

As for subspecies I have no idea.


As of right now it is in a 10 gallon. When it gets bigger I will upgrade it, but it doesn't look like it's getting bigger anyway. I feed it all the time. I give it frogs, tadpoles, pinkies, fuzzies, fish, chicken liver, and chicken gizzards. He gets a variety of foods and eats often, but never grows. It's been about the same size since I got him and I am kind of getting bored with a non-growing snake.:confused:

[RedSided]

This may not be scientifically correct ,but I have herd that some snakes will only grow as big as thier enclosure allows,they get stunted in other words, I have no idea if that is correct or not.

Also if you are feeding it frogs and other wild cought food there is a small possibility it may have contracted some parestites,eg worms. If it does have an infestation of worms then they could be taking all the nutrition he needs from the food to grow.

Another possibility is that he is just a runt>

Check his defecations to see if there are any worm like fragments.Remember even if you dont find any its not conclusive that he is clean.If you suspect strongly that he has parasites take him down to the vet.For now keep an eye on him , is he lively?, any wheezing?, lumps and bumps under the skin?.

Didn't mean to scare you but anything is possible realy, hes most likely just a small snake. How long did you say you've had him? Even small snakes take a long time to grow.

[adamanteus]

It just looks like a full grown male sirtalis!

[RedSided]

I cant get any idea of scale form those pics,but id probably just ignore what I said :rolleyes:.

[Cazador]

This may not be scientifically correct ,but I have herd that some snakes will only grow as big as thier enclosure allows,they get stunted in other words, I have no idea if that is correct or not.



This is a well-known phenomenon for fish, but not for snakes.

[adamanteus]

I've never seen a snake stunted by it's enclosure. And I've seen some REAL big snakes in some REAL small enclosures. Poor things!

[RedSided]

Its just something I said in passing, as said its probably not scientificly true, I think someone mentioned it to me a while back.Again thanks for the response on that one to blow it out of the water :D

[Nova89]

Also if you are feeding it frogs and other wild cought food there is a small possibility it may have contracted some parestites,eg worms. If it does have an infestation of worms then they could be taking all the nutrition he needs from the food to grow.

Another possibility is that he is just a runt>

Check his defecations to see if there are any worm like fragments.Remember even if you dont find any its not conclusive that he is clean.If you suspect strongly that he has parasites take him down to the vet.For now keep an eye on him , is he lively?, any wheezing?, lumps and bumps under the skin?.

Didn't mean to scare you but anything is possible realy, hes most likely just a small snake. How long did you say you've had him? Even small snakes take a long time to grow.

I don't think it is sick at all. It is very active and aggressive. It loves to hide and loves to eat. I have had it since July 1st, 2006 and it has shed 4 times since then. You would think it would look bigger after each shed but that is not the case at all. It did seem to get longer though...:confused:

[adamanteus]

Like I say...It looks like a perfectly healthy full grown male sirtalis!

[Nova89]

I was also thinking maybe it had a calcium defiency and that's why it didn't grow so a few weeks ago I bought a calcium powder supplement. It's main diet was pinkies, but you know pinkies don't have strong developed bones and a lot of calcium, so I also upgraded it to fuzzies since they have more developed bones.

[adamanteus]

Nova, I don't understand why you think it's ill. Am I missing something?

[Nova89]

Nova, I don't understand why you think it's ill. Am I missing something?

Lol i don't think it's ill at all. I think it's a healthy snake. I take very good care of it and keep the cage clean. He get's fresh water and good food.

[Nova89]

Like I say...It looks like a perfectly healthy full grown male sirtalis!

For some reason I think it's a female. Maybe because I want it to be a female. If i take a closer pic of the cloaca would that help a lot??? If so, the pics wouldnt be available until about Saturday/Sunday because I just fed HER and I dont like bothering HER after SHE eats.:rolleyes:

[Cazador]

You would think it would look bigger after each shed but that is not the case at all. It did seem to get longer though...:confused:

Mass (weight) increases disproportionately with length, so if you're concerned about its growth, you could buy a scale and keep tabs on it that way. Specifically, mass cubed is proportional to length. I doubt you're going to get much more growth out of it though because it's probably a male. If you wanted to be sure, you could submit a clear, close-up of the vent area, like KitKat did, here:

http://www.thamnophis.com/thamphotos/data//500/medium/possible_female_3.jpg

This is a female, but its characteristics are exaggerated because it was probably within minutes of deficating.

Rick

P.S. I'm pretty happy with this scale (Pro Scale 300 Gram Pocket Scale (http://lllreptile.com/store/catalog/-/pro-scale-300-gram-pocket-scale/)).

[GarterGuy]

Well still not entirely sure of the species......I'm guessing though if you got it in a petstore it's an Eastern (T.s.sirtalis). As far as the sex, still not sure on that one. As far as the growth thing.....it's probably an adult snake and isn't really going to grow anymore. Snakes don't only shed to "grow", they also shed to replace damaged or worn scales as time goes on as well. Also the growth will be slight or barely noticeable for a full grown adult. My 5.5ft. PI King sheds usually about 5 times a year or more, but hasn't gotten any bigger in the last 5yrs. I've had her.
Roy

[sschind]

Its just something I said in passing, as said its probably not scientificly true, I think someone mentioned it to me a while back.Again thanks for the response on that one to blow it out of the water :D

Well, for the most part I think this is false, but I do think there is some degree of truth to it. Last year I hatched out 7 Arizona Mt Kingsnakes. Since my adult pair is getting up there in age (13 years) and this was the very first pair of snakes I ever owned and I figured I would hold back a pair. For the first 3 months I kept them in identical deli cups and fed them all the same. Then I picked out the pair I wanted to keep and moved them to larger quarters for display. I still feed them the same but the pair I moved are probably about 25% larger. I have also seen some pretty remarkable growth spurts by animals, who seemed to have stopped growing, once they were moved to large enclosures. I can not explain it, and I would never go so far as to say they will only grow to the size of their tank, And I would never suggest to anyone that they keep their snakes in too small of a cage simply in an attempt to keep it small but I do believe that a snake in a small cage will not grow as large as the same snake in a larger cage if all other aspects are kept the same.

As far as fish go, I read about an experiment Jack Wattley had done with discus in which he concluded that it was not tank size but deterioration of water quality that limits fish size. As a fish grows it produces more watse. If you do not increase your water changes the water quality will decrease and the fish growth will slow or even stop. If you increase your water changes however you can keep the fish growing up to a point. I think you could raise a 12" Oscar in a 20 gallon tank if you did enough water changes. I wouldn't recommend it but I think it could be done.

Steve

[Cazador]

Hi Steve,

Here are a few references to scientific studies that back up my claims about fish density affecting growth patterns. If I were to choose only one to read, it would be the Rose article. They're basically saying that changing water more frequently cuts down on stress hormones, improves water quality (pH, ammonia, etc.) and ultimately enhances growth and survival. However, crowding reduces growth rates independent of food availability, water quality, and so on.

Rick


Bolasina S, Tagawa M, Yamashita Y, & Tanaka M. 2006. Effects of stocking density on growth, digestive enzyme activity and cortisol level in larvae and juveniles of Japanese flounder, Paralichthyes olivaceus. Aquaculture. 259:432-443.

Ellis T, North B, Scott AP, Bromage NR, Porter M & Gadd D. 2002. The relationships between density and welfare in farmed rainbow trout. Journal of Fish Biology 61:493-531.

Ewing RD & Ewing SK. 1995. Review of the effects of rearing density on the survival to adulthood for Pacific salmon. Progressive Fish-Culturist 57:1-25.

Rose KA, Cowan Jr. JH, Winemiller KO, Myers RA, & Hillborn R. 2001. Compensatory density dependence in fish populations: importance, controversy, understanding, and prognosis. Fish and Fisheries. 2:293-327.

[sschind]

Hi Steve,

Here are a few references to scientific studies that back up my claims about fish density affecting growth patterns. If I were to choose only one to read, it would be the Rose article. They're basically saying that changing water more frequently cuts down on stress hormones, improves water quality (pH, ammonia, etc.) and ultimately enhances growth and survival. However, crowding reduces growth rates independent of food availability, water quality, and so on.

Rick



Are they referring to crowding as in many fish per tank or as in 1 fish in a small tank. I think there is a difference. If the former I agree, too many fish causes reduced growth rates no matter how much you feed and clean. On the other hand, unlimited food availability and a continuous water flow will allow for pretty large size fish in a pretty small tank.

[Cazador]

"Crowding" was my word, but they report as mass of fish per liter of water (eg. 5 grams / Liter). The point they're making is that fish can live and grow at high densities. They just won't grow as fast, and mortality rates are higher at greater density.

[sschind]

Well, if they are going by mass/volume I suppose you could take that to mean 1 big fish or 10 smaller ones. This is a snake forum however and I am sorry to take the discussion away from them.

Steve

[Cazador]

No worries, Steve. It's certainly not the first time we've gotten off topic, and I'm certain it won't be the last. I tend to think that friendly discussions are a bit more important than sticking strictly to the point :o. I'm sure I'm not alone in that sentiment, either, as long as the main questions get answered :).

Rick

[ssssnakeluvr]

Looks like an eastern garter to me also...fromwhat I could see, looks like a male, but the pictures weren't quite enough for me to say for sure....