How to Setup Terrarium for Checkered Garters?

[OregonHerpaholic]

Hi all. I have 4 checkered garters I want to setup a somewhat natural environment for. I have been keeping them in the traditional snake setup(rubbermaid shoeboxes) and they hate it! They seem depressed and just miserable. They don't move around, breeding has not happened, and it is like they are just exsisting and not living.

So, Want to change this. I have nice 55gal I can play with. I want to create a habitat that will help these guys thrive, and if they breed so be it. I want real plants, real substrate (will be using something with Eucalyptus to keep mites away) . But what else can I use? The info on these guys is that they come from Arid and Semi-arid areas of Texas but around ponds. So I am thinking dry, hot and humid?

Any Ideas? Anyone have pics of terrariums they have created?

Thanks in advance,

Billie aka Oregonherpaholic

[guidofatherof5]

Seems I've read something about eucalyptus as possibly creating respiratory problems. There's something about oil based saps that cause problems. If your snakes don't have mites as a rule the mites won't search them out. Mites are usually introduced into a group when strict quarantine times aren't observed. I was nailed with that very problem last year and it was my fault.

Sounds like you've got an idea of what you want to do. Give them a place to warm up and a place to cool down. Water enough to soak in. Live plants are great but the soil can harbor bugs/pests that can cause problems. Plastic plants can be thrown in the dishwasher and sanitized easily.
There are a lot of ideas on substrates right here on the forum. We all don't agree and that's fine. You need to find what works best for you and most important, your snakes. I use compressed aspen pellets. They quickly absorb moister and let me know where it is at.
I recommend a bottom heater. Zoo-Med makes a lot of different size ones.
Best of luck and keep us informed on your progress.

[OregonHerpaholic]

Well, At moment I do have a mite problem, I had them in a 20 long with aspen and I am now fighting a huge mite problem. The garters are the worse off...lost all the babies to mites. Am thinking the stress of the close quarters caused the problem. (they did not have mites when I bought them).

I moved them into tubs to fight the mites, but they are not eating, the albinos look like "s". Hoping something natural will bring them around but don't know how to keep the mites away(which was the reason for the eucalyptus bedding).

The Terrarium won't be setup until mites are GONE. But will give me time to prep it for them.

Billie

[drache]

put them on newspaper
change it often
the mites will not go away by themselves, and they will kill your snakes, if you do not take action
there are several ways to treat them and the more natural ones tend to be more labour intensive
sometimes substrate from the store comes with mites, which is why I pre-treat all my substrate against mites - it's not worth it being lax about the little buggers
be diligent with whatever treatment you pick - you owe it to your snakes
here's some previous discussions on the subject:
http://www.thamnophis.com/forum/showthread.php?t=3365&highlight=mites
http://www.thamnophis.com/forum/showthread.php?t=671&highlight=mites
these are random, but I seem to recall them covering a lot of info
I hope your remaining snakes will make it through alright

[OregonHerpaholic]

I have been treating them for mites for 2 months now. No new mites have been seen on the garters, but other snakes in the room now have them. I treat EVERY SNAKE EVERY 2 WEEKS. All In plastic tubs and on white paper towels. It is the behavior of the garters that has me worried about the stress of it all...not eating, not moving around, just not responding well to the bare basic life.

[aSnakeLovinBabe]

you are right about one thing, garters hate living in tubs. If you use a very large tub and you set it up just like you would a tank, with lots of hides, climbing things, etc, it would not be so bad but i tried tubs for my garters and they hated it, and so did I. I am so happy that I finally see someone else commenting on how they are just existing and not living! That's how I felt. They seem so unhappy.

As for mites, they SUCK! I dealt with them once, I hope never again. I used provent-a-mite to treat my problem... I have a TON of snakes and the mites just kept circulating, dissapearing here but then re-appearing here... when I was using other products. Not all mite treatments are the same... or equal! Zoo med's mite off, Nature's Chemistry de-flea reptile relief... they don't work! maybe, if you had one snake and you were really diligent... maybe, but with multiple snakes, no way! Because they rely on the liquid coming in direct contact with the mite to kill it and you will never get them all. Once I go some provent-a-mite, I treated everyone's cage at the same time, and the mites were gone the next day. All of them!!! Dead! I was so happy! And they didn't come back!! Now I use it as a preventative whenever something new arrives. I cannot speak highly enough about that stuff.

[guidofatherof5]

I use Nature's Chemistry de-flea reptile relief. It is more labor intensive and requires repeated treatment but it did it's job for me.

[gregmonsta]

Provent-a-mite gets my vote. No nonsense and the minimum amount of stress on the snakes (you don't even have to change the substrate!) .... I moved the snakes to a different room ..... removed the water bowls, then treated the substrate and carpet surrounding my tanks with a teeny spray of the stuff .... waited 2 hours put the snakes back .... haven't seen mites since.

[ConcinusMan]

Hi all. I have 4 checkered garters I want to setup a somewhat natural environment for. I have been keeping them in the traditional snake setup(rubbermaid shoeboxes) and they hate it! They seem depressed and just miserable. They don't move around, breeding has not happened, and it is like they are just exsisting and not living.

You would probably feel the same way if you had to live in closet. I don't know why you would call it a "traditional snake setup". Those are mainly used by breeders or large collections where the entire room is heated. Works OK for nocturnal species such as pythons or milk snakes. Works OK if you want to "warehouse" a lot of snakes.



So, Want to change this. I have nice 55gal I can play with. I want to create a habitat that will help these guys thrive, and if they breed so be it. I want real plants, real substrate (will be using something with Eucalyptus to keep mites away) . But what else can I use? The info on these guys is that they come from Arid and Semi-arid areas of Texas but around ponds. So I am thinking dry, hot and humid?

Any Ideas? Anyone have pics of terrariums they have created?

Thanks in advance,

Billie aka Oregonherpaholic

A naturalistic vivarium can be a PITA and when it comes to garters, cleanliness is important so it must be easy to clean. The snakes couldn't care less if plants are real or not. What you are suggesting is for the owner, not the snakes. They don't care. If your snakes are comfortable and their needs are met, they won't be depressed. How are providing the necessary heat and light in a plastic shoe box?

Breeding doesn't just "happen". It's induced by changes of the season. They must come out of a winter period thinking it's spring.

What I would do is get rid of those mites. There's only one product that really works. Proventamite. Then , for a natural look in the 55gal you should use reptile bark about 1.5 inches deep. I mix in some loose coconut fiber to help absorb fecal matter, making it easier to remove. A large artificial stone water basin, some hides, plastic plants, and perhaps a climbing log or two (make sure they can't topple and hurt the snakes) and you got a natural looking setup without the PITA of an actual natural setup. A ceramic heat emitter or basking light on one end (outside the screen top) placed where snakes can't get too close, and a florescent fixture for light. A temperature gradient from 70 to 90 degrees during the day, cooler at night. Regular day/night cycle. The latter two are more important than you might think.

The checkered garters are not found near water for the humidity. They are there for water and prey items. 50-70 percent should be fine.

The viv in this video looks great and is functional is pretty much what I was getting at: http://www.boatips.com/snakehabitatsetup/

As tempting as it may be to substitute items from outside, I wouldn't recommend it. If you want a natural looking viv, without problems, it's going to cost.

[OregonHerpaholic]

>Works OK if you want to "warehouse" a lot of snakes.

I currently have 2 racks that used to house 30+ snakes. I am now down to about a dozen.

> How are providing the necessary heat and light in a plastic shoe box?

Heated Rack system, heat tape and lighted room with timer

>Breeding doesn't just "happen". It's induced by changes of the season. They must come out of a winter period thinking it's spring.

I did the cooling thing this year. Had to bring them out because I found mites. This is my 3rd year with these garters and 2nd trying to breed them, I got 1 single baby and LOTS of slugs

>As tempting as it may be to substitute items from outside, I wouldn't recommend it.

I NEVER use ANYTHING from the "wild", never have and never will

[guidofatherof5]

I use many things(branches, rocks) from the wild but they get baked for a long time.

[aSnakeLovinBabe]

>Works OK if you want to "warehouse" a lot of snakes.

I currently have 2 racks that used to house 30+ snakes. I am now down to about a dozen.

> How are providing the necessary heat and light in a plastic shoe box?

Heated Rack system, heat tape and lighted room with timer

>Breeding doesn't just "happen". It's induced by changes of the season. They must come out of a winter period thinking it's spring.

I did the cooling thing this year. Had to bring them out because I found mites. This is my 3rd year with these garters and 2nd trying to breed them, I got 1 single baby and LOTS of slugs

>As tempting as it may be to substitute items from outside, I wouldn't recommend it.

I NEVER use ANYTHING from the "wild", never have and never will


yes, I agree it's definitely possible to meet all of a snake's needs with a plastic tub! The tubs make it easier to control temps and humidity. But they don't work very well for more active snakes that want to have stuff to explore and enjoy, as you have come here to point out!

I don't think you want to create a totally naturalistic viv that mimics outside... I think you are just looking to give them a setup that's a bit more stimulating to their senses... am I correct?

[aSnakeLovinBabe]

Oh, and here are some pictures of some cages I have done for my snakes... because I am all about making them happy!

http://i286.photobucket.com/albums/ll86/aSnakeLovinBabe/Snakes/Garters/P1100377.jpg

Converted a tub into a cage!

http://i286.photobucket.com/albums/ll86/aSnakeLovinBabe/Snakes/Garters/5688107.jpg

http://i286.photobucket.com/albums/ll86/aSnakeLovinBabe/Snakes/Garters/7362131.jpg

http://i286.photobucket.com/albums/ll86/aSnakeLovinBabe/Snakes/Garters/935094.jpg

they just LOVE these hanging tubes!
http://i286.photobucket.com/albums/ll86/aSnakeLovinBabe/Snakes/Garters/935098.jpg

http://i286.photobucket.com/albums/ll86/aSnakeLovinBabe/92f1a2d6.jpg

[aSnakeLovinBabe]

It's really very simple to throw together tanks that look and feel somewhat natural, but are a cinch to tear apart and clean!

http://i286.photobucket.com/albums/ll86/aSnakeLovinBabe/P1080228.jpg

http://i286.photobucket.com/albums/ll86/aSnakeLovinBabe/4684014.jpg

http://i286.photobucket.com/albums/ll86/aSnakeLovinBabe/P1060426.jpg

I hope these are able to help you in some way!

[ConcinusMan]

>Works OK if you want to "warehouse" a lot of snakes.

I currently have 2 racks that used to house 30+ snakes. I am now down to about a dozen.

> How are providing the necessary heat and light in a plastic shoe box?

Heated Rack system, heat tape and lighted room with timer

>Breeding doesn't just "happen". It's induced by changes of the season. They must come out of a winter period thinking it's spring.

I did the cooling thing this year. Had to bring them out because I found mites. This is my 3rd year with these garters and 2nd trying to breed them, I got 1 single baby and LOTS of slugs

>As tempting as it may be to substitute items from outside, I wouldn't recommend it.

I NEVER use ANYTHING from the "wild", never have and never will

Good answers. Forgive me if I sounded condescending. Your first 2 posts in this thread sounded kinda "newbie". It really sounded like you didn't have much of a clue. I stand corrected.


I use many things(branches, rocks) from the wild but they get baked for a long time.

I must backpedal a bit and say...

There are 2 things I have used from outside with no problems. Cured driftwood from the Columbia river (scrubbed well and scalded) and several species of moss collected from cool, moist rocks in the shade. Both of these items never have presented a problem when they are kept fairly dry in a viv. It's always a bit of a risk to see it it works out, but those items collected from the NW USA seem to work fine.

I suppose it's a matter of taste and space. Those viv's pictured above would be a little too cluttered for my taste. On the other hand, they don't need to be too barren. There are several species of live plants that would probably do well but It's just not worth it to me. I can't seem to find the right plant that can tolerate the light levels and temperature ranges year 'round.

I was only suggesting that you can make it complicated or you can make it simple. Either way can look natural and still make your snakes comfortable. As you can see, more clutter or not, the basic principle is what I was getting at and is presented in those pictures.

[DIRK]

@aSnakeLovinBabe (http://www.thamnophis.com/forum/member.php?u=2626)

wow, your tanks look great. Especially the second picture is cool..
Well done....

[gregmonsta]

As stated .... it is all a matter of taste. I've stuck mostly with plastic plants and ceramic structures that have a natural look.

This is one of my older set-ups

http://www.thamnophis.com/thamphotos/data//500/medium/DSC03190.JPG

And another

http://www.thamnophis.com/thamphotos/data//500/medium/DSC00049.jpg

And here's what I ended up 'upgrading' too :rolleyes:

http://www.thamnophis.com/thamphotos/data//500/medium/Stack1.JPG

http://www.thamnophis.com/thamphotos/data//500/medium/DSC03583.JPG

They actually look a bit bare there .... I've added more hanging Ivies and different hides since these pics.

[drache]

cool hanging cardboard rolls - I've got a number of snakes that will love those

my set-ups are semi . . .
I use cage carpet because it's endlessly reusable - it does shrink a little with repeated washing
I do use a lot of branches, cork bark, broken terra cotta flower pots, and fake plants
I do use found stuff sometimes, as well as stuff from plant nurseries; that stuff either gets baked or soaked in chlorhexidine
when I clean, I soak furnishings in a chlorhexidine solution and rinse hot; the carpet just gets replaced
with the smaller tanks I take the snakes out, and with the bigger ones I just roll up half the carpet, clean, roll down the fresh, and proceed to the other half after moving the snakes to the clean side - they're pretty much used to that

at this time only my kings and hogs get burrowing substrate (currently aspen) and that gets treated with provent-a-mite before it ever gets into the cages

here's a couple of pics of set-ups

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3064/2652818039_6149cb6a8a_b.jpg

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3262/2652824111_670f2b6e64_b.jpg

even though that second cage looks cluttered, it only has a handful of items in it that are easily removed

[guidofatherof5]

All beautiful set-ups.

[Mommy2many]

I love everybody's setups! gets the imagination going; now if the money was there to back it up:D

I used to have live plants in my snake homes but I have recently switched to silk plants because I was also dealing with an insect problem. Not sure if they were mites (they were very small and white). I treated all homes and every snake had a bath. Baked all substrate, etc. Still they came back from somewhere. Bought new plants. Only thing I could think of was the live plants, so now they are gone.

Haven't seen a re-occurence as of yet, hope not to! Good luck with what ever you get set up. All of mine seem to love the silk pothos to hang in and bask under the lamp on.

[ConcinusMan]

White flies perhaps? Once they get indoors and on your plants, they get out of control but normally will only be annoying and harm only plants. I learned this back in the 80's while "growing my own". In an outdoor environment, the elements keep them under control so they don't do significant harm to the plants but indoors they are a menace.

All of those setups are the kind of elements I was getting at and there are too many shown to list all the ones I like, but you get the idea. As far as money goes, I suppose it depends on where you live and what's available. Substrate for natural looking viv's is the main cost since I prefer reptibark and/or loose coconut fiber but the rest can be quite inexpensive. Try craigslist. Often you can find tanks, dishes, accessories, etc. for very cheap. Just have to keep searching and checking back.

[OregonHerpaholic]

Good answers. Forgive me if I sounded condescending. Your first 2 posts in this thread sounded kinda "newbie". It really sounded like you didn't have much of a clue.

You have no idea. I have gotten some of the rudest private messages(here and on gartersnake groups) about me NOT treating the mites and ignoring the problem. That putting them in a cage that would increast the mites. No where in any posts I did I state I was not treating the snakes. I want to setup a terrarium WHILE they are being treated. Have it ready when I decide it is safe to put them back together. They need something more than plastic boxes on a metal rack. I cannot give Texas in Oregon but I can fake it...nicely.

The reason behind the natural design is the new Reptiles Magazine has article on Eastern Garters and gives a natural setup..soil, plants, real wood, etc. I have this for my frogs and a native rubber boa, but not my garters.

I HATE dealing with mites and do not wish anything to help these damn things breed..like soil or real wood. I think I still have mites because of the Organic way I have been dealing with it...

[OregonHerpaholic]

[QUOTE=aSnakeLovinBabe;125361]It's really very simple to throw together tanks that look and feel somewhat natural, but are a cinch to tear apart and clean!



http://i286.photobucket.com/albums/ll86/aSnakeLovinBabe/4684014.jpg

QUOTE]

Beautiful!!! What do you use to keep the moss in place.. how do you keep the moss green...I get the stuff from Northwest dealer using native moss...but it dies so fast.

[drache]

I HATE dealing with mites and do not wish anything to help these damn things breed..like soil or real wood. I think I still have mites because of the Organic way I have been dealing with it...
I'd say that's only partially true
it's entirely possible to get rid of mites the "organic" way - it's just a heck of a lot more labour intensive, and despite my convictions I myself couldn't do it with the amount of snakes I have
I used the provent-a-mite the first time when I had an outbreak that kept coming back, and one of my snakes actually ended up dying; my friend who lent me his told me that he pre-treats his substrate, so I've been doing that and then I switched most of my snakes to cage carpet.
and I'm sorry, if I came across as forceful about treating for mites, but from your first post it wasn't entirely clear whether you were treating at all. somehow your wording gave me the impression that you weren't doing quite enough - I apologize for my assumption

[Mommy2many]

White flies perhaps? Once they get indoors and on your plants, they get out of control but normally will only be annoying and harm only plants. I learned this back in the 80's while "growing my own". In an outdoor environment, the elements keep them under control so they don't do significant harm to the plants but indoors they are a menace.

They did not look like those white flies that I have seen on my plants before. They were on my snakes heads and bodies but mostly crawling around their faces and chins. I treated them as if they were mites and have done OK so far. I have had to do this process a few times in the last 8 months. Bugs, hate em!!!:eek:

[mustang]

i have checker in a 55 gal with a waterfall and a lid lined with insutation on edges so as not to pull another vanishing act...be creative with fillers ill post pics soon...any object upic up from outside let it soak for days to get bugs to die!

[ConcinusMan]

You have no idea. I have gotten some of the rudest private messages(here and on gartersnake groups) about me NOT treating the mites and ignoring the problem. That putting them in a cage that would increast the mites. No where in any posts I did I state I was not treating the snakes. I want to setup a terrarium WHILE they are being treated. Have it ready when I decide it is safe to put them back together. They need something more than plastic boxes on a metal rack. I cannot give Texas in Oregon but I can fake it...nicely.

The reason behind the natural design is the new Reptiles Magazine has article on Eastern Garters and gives a natural setup..soil, plants, real wood, etc. I have this for my frogs and a native rubber boa, but not my garters.

I HATE dealing with mites and do not wish anything to help these damn things breed..like soil or real wood. I think I still have mites because of the Organic way I have been dealing with it...

The only truly effective way was already mentioned. Foot the bill for that stuff and your mites will be gone. I would highly recommend that you make sure the mites are gone before you bring anything in the house that is going in the new setup and also treat the inanimate objects and substrate going into the new setup. I wouldn't use actual soil but natural setups for frogs has worked for me. I even had a rubber boa with leaves, sand, moss and wood from outside (until the WA dept of wildlife busted me and took the boa which is on the state threatened species list) but those were cool environments for the most part and I experienced no problems with bacteria or mold.

I can see how people might have misunderstood and scolded you for the mite problem. It likely came with the checkereds. I've never got mites or any other disease from Oregon or WA wild reptiles. Only from pet stores or breeders stock.

I'm sure you'll get it under control. Meanwhile, you got a good idea how to go about setting up a natural looking garter setup without the problems. Checkereds should be no problem at all. They are perfectly happy with a dry environment which makes it easier to put natural things in their viv.

[OregonHerpaholic]

I'm sorry, if I came across as forceful about treating for mites, but from your first post it wasn't entirely clear whether you were treating at all. - I apologize for my assumption

Your replies were nothing compared to a few private messages(most were very helpful). I am always thinking of the next thing to create. I create terrariums but plan years in advance. yes, I am treating for mites, but I want to create a "happier" environment once the problems are gone.


Foot the bill for that stuff and your mites will be gone.

I even had a rubber boa with leaves, sand, moss and wood from outside (until the WA dept of wildlife busted me and took the boa which is on the state threatened species list) .

I can see how people might have misunderstood and scolded you for the mite problem. It likely came with the checkereds.


Strange how different laws are from state to state. Oregon it is legal to own most native snakes(rubber boas and garters are not even controlled) as long as they are not bought, sold, or exchanged. But there are many herps(amphibians mostly) that are illegal to keep but cannot survive here.

The mites came from either a few wildcaught garter babies(all died because of mites) or my gopher snake - I let people borrow her to show difference between Native rattlesnake and gopher snake..GOOD possiblity of getting mites from her being NEXT to the rattlesnake. The checkereds are worse off because they were placed in closet for cooling and I did not check on them daily like the other snakes.

BUT, I STILL WILL BE SETTING UP A MORE NATURAL ENCLOSURE - after the mites are long gone!!!!!

Billie

[ConcinusMan]

I would place my bet on mites being brought in from another persons collection in that case. Lizards and snakes with rough or highly keeled scales like a rattlesnake are very prone to mites. I've never seen them on WC garters, racers, rubber boas, or gopher snakes from WA, OR, or CA but I've seen them on WC spiny lizards (several species) along with ticks which were easy to get rid of.