Red Sided: Questions

[05brandon50]

Hey guys its me again, and i have some questions


First, i have a WC red sided garter that i believe is a juvenile female and i have her eating pinks, salmon and nightcrawlers but i was wondering how often i should feed her? The meals uve fed her have been: a few chunks of salmon and a pink; two pinks and a few pieces of salmon; and a nightcrawler here and there and ive waited about 3-5 days between each feeding but she is very aggressive and i was wondering if im feeding her enough or too frequently or not frequent enough? After i feed her she always looks around her viv and everytime i make a movement she gets all hyped up like she thinking im feeding her some more. What are your thoughts?

Secondly, i was wondering if garters can be tamed through lots of handling? My garter eats SUPER aggressively and during the day doesnt come out much but sticks some of her body out of her hides but thats about it. Everytime i try to handle her she start slithering really fast and "crazy-like" like shes trying to escape. Can she be calmed down through lots of handling and determination or is that how she always will be? :( i have her near the kitchen where there's lots of traffic btw.

And lastly, i was wondering on how big red-sided garters grow? Mine is somewhere between 1-2 feet im guessing(hasnt sheded yet) and is about 3/4-1in thick. And im not completely sure its a female but i just guessed based on its voratous appitite.




I really appreciate any and all replys and advice and thank you very much for your help! :)

[Stefan-A]

Hard to say when the size of the snake and the meals are unknown, but you are feeding it often enough. Try giving it as much as it will eat.

Garters can probably be "tamed" to some extent, but I've never had a garter change its behavior significantly with handling.

How big it'll get depends on the gender. Around 60-70 cm if it's a male and twice as long if it's a female.

[guidofatherof5]

Red-sided garters can get big. I just lost a female that was 37 inches.
Most of my experience is with T.radix(Plains garter snake) and about a year with T.s.parietalis(Red-sided garter snake) I have found both to tame(tolerate) me and accept me. For a few this has taken a year of patient work. 90% of the time they show no startle response and seem to like the time I spend with them. I have a group of large females that will come out and climbing onto my shoulders and hangout while I'm visiting the others.
Have I tamed them? No. They simply accept me and don't see me as a threat. I'm also a source of food for them which makes me even more interesting. I also believe there is more to it then just this but will let you find that out on your own:rolleyes:

[mustang]

well (this is my opinion for almost all reptiles) if u handle them they usually get used to you (decrease the frantic-ness when you pic them up, but theyle still try to get away when you try to pic them up) also it greatly reduces the chance of you getting bit when they get bigger! another opinion if you get them to associate your hand with food sooner or later it might bight you.....i always cover my hand with a sock or somthin when feedn my snake. again just opinions.this info i have gathered from reaserch and my own little w/c garter. but i have a checkered not a red sided, so theyre maybe some differences

[ConcinusMan]

Good idea to get the snake to recognize your hand as a source of food. In order to do that, food must be presented ONLY when your hand is there, (for goodness sake, make sure your hand is clean. no food smell on it) not in a dish left in the tank. Not to say you must feed them from your hand, but that food only comes when the hand is there. Amy, when poking her head out, will readily and eagerly come to my hand if I approach slowly in a non-threatening manner. It took less than a month for her to start doing that. She's CB but I have come expect the same response if I had just plucked her out of the wild.

Still, individual snakes have their own "personalities". I honestly don't think that handling helps them become more tame. I can say that with confidence. They either like it, hate it, or tolerate it reluctantly. That never seems to change beyond a week in captivity for WC snakes in my experience.

Amy still gets freaked out if I cast a shadow on her and practically smashes her head into the glass or other objects. She get's freaked out about certain things. I don't expect that to change ever. She is what she is and her response to flee is just a reflex. Other behaviors such as associating the hand with food are learned.

I can't say for sure without observing your snake but it sounds like it's adapting just fine and I'd say the feeding schedule and amount is fine but as your snake gets larger and is definitely an adult it might be a good idea to let her fast for 7-10 days once in a while after a large, rich meal of pinkies. Don't be afraid to give her a few days with no heat, and don't be afraid to cool her down 10 or 20 degrees overnight.

She may come out more with less traffic but as soon as there is traffic, she may dive for cover. I don't think there's much you can do about that. Reflexes can't be unlearned.

Best thing I can say to do is to approach slowly with fish. Let her get a whiff of it from a distance. When you can see that she smells it, put your hand in the tank in a non-threatening manner and perhaps touch her. Let her smell fish again. Repeat, then feed. Do that again and again over the course of a month or so. Pretty soon she'll see your hand and come out to greet it. In time, if she was in a room with no traffic, and a person comes in, (almost always with food) she might even learn to come out and greet you, not just your hand.

Get another snake of the same species, or even a different garter or sex, and it may have it's own quirks. That's part of being a keeper. You must be observant, and let the individual snake teach you it's personality while you're at it. It's no different than owning a dog and a cat, or two dogs. Each one is different and it's your job to get to know them as individuals. You can train, but in the end, you must take on some training from them.

[05brandon50]

Wow, thank you very much guys for all the help. I'll definitely try some of those techniques but my garter seems to be like your Amy, she hits her head on the glass and other objects when i mess with her lid or she just sits there and freezes(its weird cuz she freezes and it seems like shes breathing really hard and her body kind of flucktuates). Sounding from some of the info above, i doubt my garter will ever like being handled but i wont give up. *sigh* Why cant it be more like my corn snake when handling? haha
Oh and one more quick question, if i feed a worm or some salmon fillet while i feed pinks, do i still need to lightly calcium dust the food? If so, how many times do i do it?

[mustang]

Wow, thank you very much guys for all the help. I'll definitely try some of those techniques but my garter seems to be like your Amy, she hits her head on the glass and other objects when i mess with her lid or she just sits there and freezes(its weird cuz she freezes and it seems like shes breathing really hard and her body kind of flucktuates). Sounding from some of the info above, i doubt my garter will ever like being handled but i wont give up. *sigh* Why cant it be more like my corn snake when handling? haha
Oh and one more quick question, if i feed a worm or some salmon fillet while i feed pinks, do i still need to lightly calcium dust the food? If so, how many times do i do it?
it wont be like your cornsnake since your corn was probably a cb and was used to human interaction since it was little...now uv got a challenge!:D with w/cs youll never know what theyre gonna do next!

[jitami]

Sounding from some of the info above, i doubt my garter will ever like being handled but i wont give up. *sigh* Why cant it be more like my corn snake when handling? haha

Hehe... I know you were joking, but as a new owner of a corn snake I have to say I really like having both. The garters are waaaaay more fun to watch interact with each other and their environment and the corn is more fun to hold and hang out with :)

[05brandon50]

Yeah totally. I like my garter a lot because its out when i leave and come home from school and my corn just sorta sleeps all day and i never see her but i love both my snakes and im just trying to give them both the best lives posdible :)

[ConcinusMan]

Yup. Garters got great personality that's for sure. Radix, concinnus, awesome personality. Females are nicer though, generally.

Anyway, CB or WC doesn't seem to make any difference. I've had wonderfully tame WC kings, garters, gophers, milks, and I've seen nasty mean CB snakes of the same species.

Most CB milks I've seen, especially females, were pretty docile and tolerated handling well. My Jewels is pretty darn big and is CB, and has been handled throughout her life. She still hates it, and fights it. She's a grouch. More handling only irritates her more so for the most part, I leave her alone. Now she's starting to trust me and comes out more and doesn't dive for cover when I'm near the tank. She's fine now as long as I'm outside the glass.

[05brandon50]

So in some cases, snakes can be "tamed"?

[ConcinusMan]

They can learn to trust to a point, they can learn to associate you or your hand with food instead of danger but overall, each has it's own attitude and it's not likely to change much beyond the first few months in captivity. Many snakes do not need to be "tamed" since they are naturally docile. Many garters I have caught that were very defensive, striking, musking, etc., come to realize that it's not working within a few minutes or hours and give up. Those snakes can be among the nicest tame snakes. Others persist in being nasty, others, particularly very young snakes seem to calm down as they get older or larger. Male concinnus always seem to stay rather fiesty, even after 10-15 years in captivity while females are sweet as can be a week after catching them. That's been my experience.

[05brandon50]

Oh so maybe through enough tries it MIGHT settle down?

[ConcinusMan]

Can't hurt to try. My point is, no matter how much you work with a hostile snake, It's always going to be a bit hostile. It's not like handling a rattlesnake for example, makes them any nicer. In the end you're just going to have to accept her for who she is. If you want a nice tame snake to handle, get another garter with a better attitude.

I've kept yellow-bellied racers before and ALL of them were hostile as can be. No matter how long I had them, they remained hostile. They can grow accustomed to you but it doesn't usually change their attitude.

Think of it this way: Think of a type of music that you just can't stand. I mean, you hate it. Does playing it over and over make you like it any more? You may learn to tolerate it, but you still don't like it.

[guidofatherof5]

So in some cases, snakes can be "tamed"?


Can't hurt to try. My point is, no matter how much you work with a hostile snake, It's always going to be a bit hostile. It's not like handling a rattlesnake for example, makes them any nicer. In the end you're just going to have to accept her for who she is. If you want a nice tame snake to handle, get another garter with a better attitude.

I've kept yellow-bellied racers before and ALL of them were hostile as can be. No matter how long I had them, they remained hostile. They can grow accustomed to you but it doesn't usually change their attitude.

Think of it this way: Think of a type of music that you just can't stand. I mean, you hate it. Does playing it over and over make you like it any more? You may learn to tolerate it, but you still don't like it.

I have found that the more hostile snakes need a different handling procedure. Getting them to accept you comes at their speed. For some it can take a long time but the payoff has always been worth the effort. Some of the nicest snakes I've ever had were once those hostile snakes. I think it is well worth the time and effort invested. I have had plenty of hostile/scared/nervous snakes turn into pleasant/calm/docile snakes and never show any signs of the latter.
Maybe I've just been lucky but for the Thamnophis I've worked with it has always turned out good, really good.
Keep working with that snake Brandon. Be patient and thing should turn out good.

[05brandon50]

Oh ok but i get what youre saying and either way i still like her a lot. And idk if it makes a difference but its not really hostile but more skittish, but im guessing its the same difference. I'll keep making attemps but if she never calms down, thats ok because i still love her and i can always handle my corn :)

[guidofatherof5]

Oh ok but i get what youre saying and either way i still like her a lot. And idk if it makes a difference but its not really hostile but more skittish, but im guessing its the same difference. I'll keep making attemps but if she never calms down, thats ok because i still love her and i can always handle my corn :)

There is a big difference between hostile and skittish. Both can be overcome. Skittish is the easier of the two.
Best of luck, Keep us posted on your progress.

[ConcinusMan]

I'll have to agree with steve on that last post. I think I mentioned it before but it might help if your snake was not in a high traffic area, or if you used a "curtain" of some sort to give him privacy. When he does have to see a human, have that human always come with food. It will take time and consistency but he'll learn to associate the "traffic" or people approaching, with food and perhaps that will help with building trust and he will come to think of you as a provider, not a monster.

Forcefully handling a skittish snake when he is obviously fighting it is not a good way to go about it. It only causes the snake to distrust you and avoid you because he will associate humans with the unpleasant experience.

Get the snake to associate you or your hand with food first. You'll know when he gets it. He'll come out of his hide to greet you when he's hungry. After that, it's best to only handle the snake first thing in the morning when he's very cool.(if you turn off heat at night. I recommend you do that) He'll be calmer then and learn to associate your handling with warmth. Again, that is a pleasant thing for a snake, not a negative thing.

[05brandon50]

Oh ok, those are some great thoughts! Currently i have it near all my other reptiles and that place is like i said, near the kitchen so people go by a lot but im the only one who actually sits and watches it. But ok ill tryvthe hand-food relationship and ill try the morning handling

[05brandon50]

Ok so when i tried to change the substrate today, i got the snake out and it went CRAZY and it pooped lol. Is this natural and can it be helped so it doesnt happen as often cuz that was nasty haha

[gregmonsta]

It is called 'musking' and it's a natural defence mechanism. Hopefully, as it gets used to you and handling, this will happen less and less .... :rolleyes: be prepared to be targeted for a few more of those sniper shots in the future though :D

[05brandon50]

Whatever it was, it was gross. It slung some at me and all directiobs with its tail haha

[guidofatherof5]

Whatever it was, it was gross. It slung some at me and all directiobs with its tail haha


Wait until they sling it and it gets in your mouth. I've only had that happen in the field. My Ranch snakes are to refined for such behavior:D

[mtolypetsupply]

Respectfully, I must disagree with those who say a snake doesn't change over time. I cannot say for sure that it *is* the handling that mellowed out my garters. They are '08's, and are now much more calm. I don't know if it is a factor of their age or my handling them.

I will say that I have handled my '09 babies more than I handled my '08 babies. In '08, I listened to my husband who told me I would "stress them out". In '09, I told him they were my snakes, and he can raise his snakes anyway he likes, but I'm handling mine. The '09's are much more calm than the '08's were at their age, and even come to the glass when I look in at them.

I can't say for sure, but this anecdotal evidence suggests handling does help calm them down. I also don't put them back until they settle down, at least a little. Even snakes can grasp cause and effect, IMO.

:)

[ConcinusMan]

I didn't mean to make it sound "black and white". I was just offering my experience with WC garters. There are certain aspects to their disposition that just seem to remain rigid. Call it personality if you wish. The differences between your '08 and '09 snakes are an example of your personal experience with your snakes and those differences are not necessarily because of the handling. Some can learn to tolerate handling, some are just "dumb" and do not learn. I don't think that just grabbing the snake and forcing it to be handled is a good approach in this particular case. I also think that if you want a garter to handle, get one that tolerates it from the start, and generally calm. Some even seem to like the interaction.

I also tried the method (force handling) you suggest many times over many years with limited success. There's not only differences in personality from species to species but also differences among the sexes. I can't count how many times my male concinnus musked me over 18 years with me. He would also tail slap me if he wasn't in the mood to have his territory invaded by my hand. That much never changed, that's just who he was. Pretty much all the males I had were like that. High strung. Females have always musked me a few times the first few months, extremely rarely after that.

Ordinoides on the other hand have a completely different personality. Never had one musk me more than once or twice in the first few days, a few bite, then never again. They seem very calm if made comfortable in their new home. Most have been indifferent to handling. They don't seem to like or dislike it.

Some snakes "grasp cause and effect" some just do not.

It's good that brandon is getting this varying feedback though. In the end, it's going to have to be a learning experience. Only personal experience can teach him how to care for and handle his snakes. It helps if you have many years experience with many snakes of a certain species. Gives you a frame of reference. If you only have the experience with one individual or a few species, it's easy to draw conclusions. That goes for me too. I've never handled the canadian or eastern red-sides. (I've only handled WC CA red sides)

I predict that there are much calmer local snakes out there for him. He just happened to get a high strung one this time. She may calm down as she gets bigger, regardless of what he does.

[05brandon50]

yeah i know and thank you guys for all this support! like i said, my corn and garter are completely different when it comes to handling etc. and even if i never can handle my garter without it freaking out, im still going to "like" it. but the thing is with my garter is that it is hardly ever out of its hide(when everyone is home) and when it is, and i start to open the lid or even get close to the enclosure, it either darts real fast into any direction even if that direction is into the glass or it just sits there and looks like its breathing heavily and again, this is if it even comes out. and if i do actually manage to even tough it, it darts out of my hand quickly. so i was wondering, how do i try to handle it when it reacts this way? have you guys had any similar reactions? im just wondering if its bad to try and handle still and i should wait or should i just keep trying?

[gregmonsta]

Had to bring this up again :D - http://www.thamnophis.com/forum/showthread.php?t=2892
On another note, Panama, my WC ribbon 'rescued' from a clueless shop, started off typically - ie she would musk and be agitated. I got her last April and after 4 months of interaction once or twice a week she stopped musking. The last two handlings in particular were really pleasant and it looks as she has adapted well.
Apart from Panama the only other garters in my current collection to have musked me are Xerxes (but then again I was medicating him at the time) and J (I had rudely interupted his brumation for an inspection).
I have to say also that I find the males more likely to come and climb onto my hand when proffered.

[ConcinusMan]

I think I mentioned it before about the temperature. Sounds like your snake is up to temp and is nice and warm. Any snake in that condition is going to react quickly, and the metabolism will be high so heavy or fast breathing would be normal.

I have and had snakes of many species including many different garters. A snake that is warm and breathing fast, alert, and is nervous is best handled when cool. Opinions will differ but I say cool that snake down for at least 8 hours at night. From your description, the snake just might be too warm. Garters IMHO are best kept rather cool, and will seek out the warm spots or basking areas. Many garters I have kept will hide and get a nasty attitude when it's very warm or humidity is too low. Yet when the air temperature is cool (60-70 degrees) they will come out and seek the basking spot, if it's a basking bulb, heat emitter, local bottom heat, etc. Seriously, I'm not there to monitor your temperatures but it can't hurt the snake to cool it down. I found that one good way to get a garter on a day activity schedule is to cool them down at night. When the heat comes on in the morning, they come out and bask.

May I ask where you got your garter. Forgive me, I have CRS. (Can't remember shi...)

I'm still wondering. Is your red-sided a CA red-sided? Like one of these?
http://www.californiaherps.com/snakes/pages/t.s.infernalis.html

I ask because the "original" red sided garter is from the north and eastern part of the continent, roughly.

If you have a CA red side, then WC individuals can be a bit high strung. I have caught large red sides in CA and they put up one heck of a fight. Very spirited.

If you're in Palm Springs you're likely to have indoor climate control that might keep the air a bit too dry. A good heavy mist twice a day with a spray bottle would be good idea and can't hurt, as long as your substrate is dry. Even CA red sides live in low lying wet areas where the humidity is high.

[05brandon50]

Oh ok. I got my snake from one of my friend's small reptile shop down here. And my garter isnt a cal red-sided because it doesnt havevthat vibrant colors like they do and is just has dark greens and some red on its sides. And another thing, while im still home before school, i turn on all my reptile lights and i have a flat rock under the basking light(this is my basking spot) and i never hardly see it out underneith the light. Maybe it goes under after i leave or what idk. And when i turn off the heat lamp at night i sometimes do a little check up sorta on it and i come into the completely dark room after about an hour and i look inside and i see my garter out and on the warm basking rock with no light on. And other nights i just see it out and about at night. Is this normal? I know that they are mostly active during the day and im just confused. I mean its eating very well and defacating normally its just very reclusive and skittish it seems. Idk, what are your thoughts?

Oh and about the heavy breathing thing when i walk to watch it, its almost like it's "having a heart attack" not really but im just guessing its just frightened

[ConcinusMan]

Some snakes, even diurnal ones (active in day time) will hide all day and become active right around sundown and a few hours after dark. Sometimes my Amy does that. Generally they do this if it's very warm. But hey, active after dark is better than nothing.

I would suggest this: get one of those nocturnal basking bulbs. It will provide the heat, and light that you can see so you can view your snake. However, the light it produces cannot be seen by the snake so to him, it will be dark, but warm. I used to use those on baby king snakes and it worked out nicely.

Go ahead and provide a normal day with heat and light but use the nocturnal basking bulb at the same time every night for a few hours. Do that in an otherwise dark room and you'll get to see your snake more, and get to view activity that you would otherwise miss. With baby king or milk snakes this was the only way I got to see them active.

[05brandon50]

Ok so its been acting really weird lately. For the past few days its been pacing through its cage like crazy. Its like pushing against the walls of the terranium and just going everywhere. I tried feeding her but she turned her nose up at it. Its always out and just acting really wierd. Whats going on and should i be concerned??? :(

[guidofatherof5]

Ok so its been acting really weird lately. For the past few days its been pacing through its cage like crazy. Its like pushing against the walls of the terranium and just going everywhere. I tried feeding her but she turned her nose up at it. Its always out and just acting really wierd. Whats going on and should i be concerned??? :(


They go through phases sometimes. Weather changes can make them act strange.
Don't worry about the not eating. Keep offering and more than likely things will return to a more normal routine.

[ConcinusMan]

Yeah, somethings going on but I wouldn't get too overly concerned. Jewels, my puelblan milk snake(6 year old female 4ft) just went through the same thing. She has been very restless, rooting around the enclosure, poking around the top, just won't settle down. She also refused fresh f/t pinkies when she was due to be fed, which is unheard of for her. Finally today, nearly a week late, she accepted a freshly killed mouse and dang near took my hand with it. I mean, she was downright vicious, like she wanted to kill it but it was already dead.

Amy (garter in my sig) has been feeding well but also not her usual self. Both snakes are aware of the day length changes because the room gets natural light from a window. Also, the barometer has been rising steadily and is higher than it has been in months. Maybe this has something to do with it, I'm not sure. It's just one of those mysteries.

The concinnus pair I had for about 2 decades would show obvious signs of distress when the barometer would change rapidly to a very high or very low reading.

[jitami]

How's the temperature in her tank? Too hot will make them try to get away from the heat and be very active doing so. Second, are you sure she's a she? Males this time of year are often very active and off feed looking for a mate.

[guidofatherof5]

How's the temperature in her tank? Too hot will make them try to get away from the heat and be very active doing so. Second, are you sure she's a she? Males this time of year are often very active and off feed looking for a mate.

Great questions. That's what is so good about this forum. So many minds all working towards the same goal.
The care of our snakes and helping other with theirs.

[ConcinusMan]

Those are good questions to consider. I concur. Also, do not underestimate the influence that changing day length has on garters or any diurnal reptile. Often the change in day length can have a very strong influence even if temperature is dropping while day length is increasing or visa/versa.

I can't stress enough that the day length needs to be consistent and appropriate for the latitude your snake comes from, and of course you can manipulate it to make them think it's a certain season.

The term "spring fever" doesn't just apply to humans. Many animals start acting strangely when the day overtakes the night in length. Especially if those animals are genetically "programmed" to respond to that change. (animals that are native to areas far from the equator)

Jewels, for example, is native to an area in So. Mexico where there is only about 10 mins difference between winter and summer day length. She knows it's winter by slightly cooler temperatures and very dry in the winter. Warmer and humid in the summer.

Garters respond very much to changes in day length.

[05brandon50]

Well she/he is like your milk, shes rooting around her tank and poking and going up the sides of the tank. I turned off the heat lamp thinking it may be too hot or something and now she just sits in her water dish. I am misting the tank because i heard that when a snake stays in the water bowl its because of humidity issues but i have the heat lamp turned off and we havnt been running our air conditioner. My corn snake it normal so idk whats going on? I mean, shes never ever ever under her hide anymore(unlike before where thats all she would stay) and shes just restless. Im so confused and im getting concerned :(

[jitami]

No reason to get too concerned just yet. Do you have a thermometer in her tank? That would be my first suggestion, just to make sure the temps are ok. Oh, and some garters just like to soak, but have you checked her well for mites? (sorry if this was covered earlier... didn't go back and re-read the entire thread) Mites would make her active and would cause her to soak. Just another thing to check of the list :)

[ConcinusMan]

Most of the time, the soaking is a thermoregulation thing. Water holds heat, and at the same time, releases it slowly. In other words, while the temperature changes around the water, the water is slow to change. It probably just felt good and was the right temperature.

[05brandon50]

Oh ok. Well shes back in her hide, sorta, so maybe things are back to normal. Ill try feeding her again tomorrow as well

[ConcinusMan]

It's good that you are paying attention. It's the little things they do and the subtle changes that are important. It's good to know your snakes and know when something is out of the ordinary. But do not be overly concerned right now. There is no cause for alarm just yet.