OT - sorry - need incubation help

[drache]

this is totally non-garter, but I haven't gotten any response elsewhere so far, so I'm trying the more diversified folk here
just to let you know - I read the books, and they didn't cover it
you'd think an important work like "Incubation of Reptile Eggs" would give one a little more info on how to prep the substrate, and last time I tried, all the eggs went bad
how do I prep the perlite for incubating uromastyx eggs?
the Uromastyx book says to keep the substrate dry and the humidity high
that perlite is dusty
do I just rinse it?
it's supposed to have high water retention, so any amount of soaking will get it too damp, right?
I'd just hate another batch of moldy eggs - please help

[charles parenteau]

do you have small holes on the top for ventilation ???

[aSnakeLovinBabe]

Hey Rhea, have you considered trying substrate-less incubation? I know a lot of snake breeders will use perlite but then will go out and buy plastic egg crate, and put it on top of the wet perlite and rest the eggs on that, so that they are suspended slightly above the substrate. That way, it does not matter how wet the perlite is, because the eggs are not touching it and so they can't actually get wet, they will simply be bathed in nice, humid air. Then on the container put on a tight fitting lid and open it every few days for some fresh air. I found that putting holes in my containers made it too dry, but I have always incubated eggs on moist paper toweling. A layer of paper towels on the bottom, then one on top over the eggs, and only mist the towels enough to keep them damp. Then I put the lid on and every few days I check on them. I had 100% success rate with that method, with snakes. Don't know how well it will work for uros!

[drache]

Hey Rhea, have you considered trying substrate-less incubation?
I am definitely considering that, since the Uromastyx book says that no dampness whatever should touch the eggs (so definitely no damp paper towel), but any amount of humidity is fine

I know a lot of snake breeders will use perlite but then will go out and buy plastic egg crate, and put it on top of the wet perlite and rest the eggs on that, so that they are suspended slightly above the substrate. That way, it does not matter how wet the perlite is, because the eggs are not touching it and so they can't actually get wet, they will simply be bathed in nice, humid air. Then on the container put on a tight fitting lid and open it every few days for some fresh air. I found that putting holes in my containers made it too dry

where do you get the egg crate? and won't it be too big?
I thought of just using hardware cloth, but I don't actually have any of that either

the perlite I had was so dusty that I had to at least wet it down, and truthfully - the measuring was not exact, primarily because there were some spills; it's damp
I'm thinking, just in case she pops soon I should try to dry some of it out under a head lamp or in the oven, so I've got something
the idea is to put the eggs on top of the dry perlite in an open container that's sitting in an enclosed container with water and an aquarium heater

[aSnakeLovinBabe]

egg crate also goes by the name of "light diffuser" it is that white plastic stuff with lots of small squares in it that they put over fluorescent lights to diffuse the light. The holes are quite small. If you think they would till be too big you could put down some dry paper towel on top of it.

It looks like this:http://www.collins-consulting.org/orchids/eggCrate.jpg

[drache]

okay, thanks
not sure where I would find that, but it gave me a few other ideas
ms Gwen the uro got hissy and snappy at me yesterday (very uncharacteristic), so I think she must be close

[MasSalvaje]

okay, thanks
not sure where I would find that, but it gave me a few other ideas


I hate to sound like a walking advertisement for where I work but you can find the grate at Home Depot and so I will also assume any other chain hardware store, in my area it is about $7 for a 2'x4' piece, you can cut it down to the size you need with tin snips or anything else that will cut through it. Were you able to recycle your light?

-Thomas

[drache]

I hate to sound like a walking advertisement for where I work but you can find the grate at Home Depot and so I will also assume any other chain hardware store, in my area it is about $7 for a 2'x4' piece, you can cut it down to the size you need with tin snips or anything else that will cut through it. Were you able to recycle your light?

-Thomas
which department at home depot?
unfortunately, because I don't have a car I have to go to one I can get to by train, which happens to be the one in Manhattan. I swear they cater to metro-sexuals. yes, they take any amount of light bulbs (of course I forgot to bring mine), but they did not know about egg crate, nor did they know what hardware cloth is, and the screws come in prissy little packets. after what seemed like two hours in there, and getting side-tracked by stuff like stained-glass effect light bulbs, I ended up with a couple of totes, a bunch of extension cords, and a roll of screen. I am seriously disenchanted with the availability of hardware items these days

[MasSalvaje]

which department at home depot?

They will be with the fluorescent lighting along with the acrylic ceiling light tiles, my store has both white ones like the one Shannon posted a pic of as well as a chrome mirrored(?) finish. I don't know how big of a store it is that you are by but they should have them.

-Thomas

[jitami]

Rhea, wouldn't the screen work just as well? In our Home Depot they're back with the large florescent light box covers... you know those opaque plastic rectangles that go over "light boxes" on the ceiling? There are sheets of those standing upright toward the back of the lighting section along with the egg stuff that shannon posted a picture of. Hmmm... wonder if another name other than egg crate would help... lemme do some searching...

[jitami]

Look here, this is the first thing that popped up on google when I searched for 'home depot light diffuser' http://strobist.blogspot.com/2007/10/home-depot-week-fluorescent-lights-and.html Scroll down a bit.

That said, no amount of searching home depot online led me to it. I'm guessing it's because they don't ship well? I know a lot of the light covers were cracked when we had to replace one. Maybe Thomas can get us a part number?

[drache]

hm, yes, at that home depot they barely know what's in their own department, so since I didn't ask in lighting . . .

[MasSalvaje]

hm, yes, at that home depot they barely know what's in their own department, so since I didn't ask in lighting . . .

Hey now, we aren't all like that! But I do what you mean. The discription I have in my system is 2x4 EGG CRATE WHITE LOUVER, SKU is 116-602, UPC is 074507432008. This one will be in the flooring dept with the ceiling tiles. They also have some in electrical but for some reason they are a little bit more expensive.

-Thomas

[drache]

you have to understand who that particular Home Depot store caters to - the Martha Stewart crowd
they truly may not have it, but I will try again, now that I know which departments to hit.
there's also a huge lighting supply store not too far from here that I can check after the impending snow storm
anyway - I've managed to dry out some of the vermiculite, so I can always use that

[MasSalvaje]

The lighting supply store will definately have some, they may have different sizes that will cater better to your needs also.

-Thomas

[ConcinusMan]

Sorry Rhea, the only experience I have ever had with reptile egg incubation went off without a hitch. I mean, I had no problems. I simply used sterile perlite from a bag purchased at the local garden shop. I made sure it was good and moist, but not wet, and placed it into a plastic container with a cover with a few holes punched in it. The eggs were only about halfway (or less) buried in the moist perlite, (laying horizontally) and all eggs were not touching each other. I placed them in there using sterile tools and was careful not to touch them or turn them. It was basically lift, and place. That wasn't easy to do. DO NOT TURN THEM! try to leave them laying on the same side they were laying when mother left them.

I was careful not to keep them too wet, and occasionally had to take off the lid and give them a mist from a spray bottle filled with tap water. The point is, they were clean, moist (but not wet) and I kept them near my gas water heater! where it was a constant 75-85 degrees F for 60+ days. Other than monitoring the moisture, I avoided opening the container and never touched them. Sometimes, after a few weeks, you can spot a "black" or rotten egg. I always removed them promptly. Sniffing the container upon opening is important. You can sniff out a bad egg and it will look different from the rest. Also, sometimes you can smell a "moldy" smell. IF I smell that, I leave the container open and let them dry out quite a bit, until the eggs begin to wrinkle, but no more. Don't be alarmed if the eggs seem to "shrivel". It's better than being too wet.

Out of about 70 eggs (average of 16 per clutch) I have only lost a few, and the rest hatched on time. My method worked for coluber constrictor, Sceloporus occidentalis (and many of their relatives) and I imagine it would work for most reptile eggs.

I don't know what else I could say that might help. Good luck!

[ConcinusMan]

Keeping the eggs slightly elevated above the substrate on a screen sounds even better! That'll work!

I really want this to work for you! sounds like perhaps in the past they have simply been kept too wet (?) They should look a bit wrinkled, especially after a few weeks incubation, and watch for that moldy smell, and watch for a rotten smell/discolored eggs! I'm routing for you! get these babies home! You can do it!

[drache]

thanks everybody
I think I'm set at this point
now she just needs to pop the eggs out

[ConcinusMan]

BTW, I think that type of light diffuser is pretty much yesterday's tech. They don't have it around here either since most lights come with a solid plastic cover these days, to serve that purpose. As long as you're planning on keeping the eggs up off of the substrate, don't forget to keep fairly high humidity. You can overshoot your goal and end up with dried dead eggs instead.

Another method I've heard of, but didn't try is to put them on a screen, a few inches above an amount of water and heat the water with an aquarium heater so that the air inside the aquarium or container is right, and use a lid that gives them a little ventilation while still maintaining high humidity. Even bird eggs need the humidity. Reptile eggs dry out even faster. Hope you don't let them dry out. No contact with wet substrate does not mean keep them dry. It should be very humid. I'd go so far as to say it's probably a good idea to give them a light mist once a day, especially if they are looking "caved in" Don't forget to avoid turning/touching them once they are laid.

I don't know about your lizards but mine were very picky when it came to where they lay their eggs. I've lost a few to egg-binding because they just wouldn't lay until they were satisfied with the location. Had to be just right moisture/temperature/etc.. Stubborn individuals lost their lives, or nearly did because they refused to lay or became exhausted digging all those burrows in the moist sand.

I found this line about about hatching uromastyx eggs:

"In 1998 my female laid 4 non fertile yellow eggs on 05/17/98 and 21 days later (06/07/98) she laid eight white ones. Of these seven hatched between 08/24/98-08/28/98. They were incubated in a Hova-Bator (Styrofoam style incubator) filled with moist vermiculite. I added this directly to the incubator and no plastic containers were used. The incubation temperature was 86-89 degrees"

Some methods which might encourage her to lay:
http://www.uroranch.com/Info/Layingprep1.html

The coolest light diffuser I have ever seen: http://www.amazon.com/Sky-Scapes-Fluorescent-Light-Diffuser-Fluffy/dp/B000MP09QI

Just had to throw that in there :p

[drache]

thanks for all the info and the links
she laid the eggs without a problem right in her tank last time, so I'm assuming that that will be okay
as for the incubation, I'm going by the Thomas Wilms book. He says dry substrate and high humidity - no damp substrate to touch the eggs
from my previous experience I'd say they're much more prone to mold than drying out

[ConcinusMan]

makes sense since they are from a very hot dry desert.

Dry substrate and high humidity. sounds good. Or no substrate at all would probably work to. Like the screen above heated water method. I guess it's a bit different then western spiny lizards. Their eggs were more prone to drying so half buried in damp substrate was best but you still had to be on guard for that tell-tale musty smell and catch it early.

Hope she lays them soon.