Another ignorant pet store.

[gregmonsta]

Some of you might remember my reservations about one of my local exotic pet shops. I 'rescued' Panama (a gulf coast ribbon) from there last April. Here's a summary -

I asked about wether he'd be interested in CB garters ... answer was no - they wouldn't sell ... yet a couple of months later there was a gaggle of WC ribbon snakes (ie cheap as chips and likely to make a good profit).
Found out they were fed on sprats (a seafish) and crickets. Made my comments, was ignored and met with 'Well, the crickets are dissapearing so they must be eating them.'.
I 'rescued' one and haven't been back to the shop since. On the online site they are still advertised as feeding on worms, crickets/etc which:
1) goes against the caresheet they have in their caresheet section or indeed goes against any advice given in the John Coote book on garter snake husbandry which they actually stocked (I know ... I bought it).
2) thamnophis species are NOT insectivorious and have been known to become impacted on a diet of insects through bad husbandry.
3) doesn't mention 'safe' fish ie freshwater thiaminase free fish, for example salmon and trout fillet.
4) a diet of nothing but earthworms will lead to issues with lack of phosphorus and calcium.
I joined the forum. Did my best to give advice and have pursued this, since last April, on other forums and also with other shop visitors that weren't happy with the owner's attitude.
I am not happy with the 'I know better because I've been doing this for years' approach.

Certainly, when it comes to Thamnophis the guy is seriously out of touch (ie stuck in the eighties).

The shop is well stocked and looks in good order and the practices with other species may well be in order but my experience with them mentioned above leaves a lot to be desired.

To this day they are still advertising their ribbons as being fed on worms and insects.

My other issue was that they were advertised simply as Thamnophis sauritus (when there was a clear variety of ribbons in the tank, which I estimated at being 80% proximus variants).

Recently I was told by one of the staff as being ignored because I was being 'rude' .... I was just being direct because I was being rudely ignored .... funny that!

Here's a link to their page - Strictly Exotics | Reptile Care & Breeding Centre | UK, Scotland, Dundee (http://www.strictlyexotics.com/catalogue)

[guidofatherof5]

Greg, do you think a few emails from us forum members with regards to the keeping of his ribbons will do any good?

[gregmonsta]

Well, I'm not sure (considering the bigoted attitude I've been met with), but I would hope that a few more voices could turn the tide so to speak. I'm planning to mention it to my vet next week.

[ConcinusMan]

I know of somebody local that bought baby corns from petco. The dang things nearly starved themselves to death because they will only eat crickets. That's what petco feeds their baby corns. Stupid.

[aSnakeLovinBabe]

I know of somebody local that bought baby corns from petco. The dang things nearly starved themselves to death because they will only eat crickets. That's what petco feeds their baby corns. Stupid.
corn snakes wont actually eat crickets... thats just what some petcos THINK they eat so they put them in with them! idiots.

[Charis]

Sometimes corns do actually eat them, though. On the corn forum a few months ago, there was a new member who bought a snow corn from a pet store & it had eaten a cricket. It died a week after they bought it because the shell of the cricket sliced it up inside.

[aSnakeLovinBabe]

Sometimes corns do actually eat them, though. On the corn forum a few months ago, there was a new member who bought a snow corn from a pet store & it had eaten a cricket. It died a week after they bought it because the shell of the cricket sliced it up inside.
Did they open the snake up? It's likely that the shell simply caused an impaction because it was not digested and could not be passed. A cricket would not cut the insides of a snake up, seeing as there are snakes out there that do eat crickets this would be rather bad if crickets could cut up intestines! I would have to assume that it had been force fed the cricket. I don't see a corn snake, no matter how hungry, willingly swallowing a live insect. Striking at one defensively, possibly!

[ConcinusMan]

corn snakes wont actually eat crickets... thats just what some petcos THINK they eat so they put them in with them! idiots.

No seriously. Baby corns are induced to feed by the visual motion of a cricket and some will eat them. So will small ribbon snakes. They want to hunt! In my opinion they offer baby corns for sale as pet before the snakes are ready. Before anyone has time to assess the young they are already up for sale. Nobody cares because these are mostly "excess" young produced by breeders as "by product" if you will, and are mostly unwanted snakes. Nobody has taken the time to rear these young properly and see that they are eating rodents before being offered for sale. I would only buy such a batch of unproven feeders or hatchling snakes if I got them at a rock-bottom price and I would probably only use them as feeders for snake-eating herps.

Bottom line is, most will not make it from pet store to adult. A very sad fact.

[aSnakeLovinBabe]

I don't buy it! I want video footage of a corn snake catching and eating a cricket! and then, i want to slap whoever took that footage for even offering the snake a cricket! :cool:

I have seen a photo of a corn with a cricket in it's mouth, but the owner of the photo willingly stated that the snake grabbed it on impulse and immediately spat it out in disgust. He did it to prove to himself that they will bite just about anything that's moving.

[Charis]

Did they open the snake up? It's likely that the shell simply caused an impaction because it was not digested and could not be passed. A cricket would not cut the insides of a snake up, seeing as there are snakes out there that do eat crickets this would be rather bad if crickets could cut up intestines! I would have to assume that it had been force fed the cricket. I don't see a corn snake, no matter how hungry, willingly swallowing a live insect. Striking at one defensively, possibly!

You know, I'm not sure about that. Probably it was an impaction, like you said. The thread was started about 6 months or so ago & I don't remember all of it. I remember thinking exactly what you said (bolded) when I read that. I think, it was probably tossed out there as the cause by somebody else & not the OP. I do remember the pictures of it, it was a snow & you could actually see the mostly whole cricket inside the snake.

[ConcinusMan]

I'm not so sure about baby corns as I have no first-hand witness of the babies eating crickets. I only have a half dozen or so people who witnessed it. In fact they pointed out individual neonates that eat crickets. Those were the larger ones that weren't emaciated. I did witness very young eastern ribbon snakes feeding on crickets on more than one occasion. Some of them subsisted on crickets as neonates, and even grew outgrew crickets to move on to more substantial meals.

All I am saying about baby corns is that the so-called "problem feeders" could all be saved and get them on proper food, if only they weren't sold before they had a chance. The young don't seem to care about what good food smells like, it's the motion that triggers a feeding response. big problem for inexperienced people who buy them as babies and expect them to eat dead pinkies.

Many of these unfortunate hatchlings just waste away in pet stores. I know they could be saved if only someone cared. Sad.

I say this to the people that breed hundreds of unwanted corns because they are looking for the perfect morph:

If the babies aren't wanted, cull them or sell them as food for other herps. Seriously. Don't have them waste away to poor husbandry only to get emaciated and end up dead in a pet store, or even worse, dead in the viv of a first timer who spent a fortune, and misguidedly ended up in charge of a baby snake.

That benefits neither the hobby as a whole, nor the possible future hobbiest who got turned off to snakes as a pet because of the horrible first experience. In the end, the buyer loses, the snakes loses, the hobby loses. If they are going to die, give them a purpose such as feeding other (somebody tell me the word that means snake-eating snake) snakes.

Directed at nobody and everybody: Don't discount your part in the big picture. How many offspring had to suffer the same fate for you to have the privilege of buying that rare morph at premium?

I'd feel much better about it if their bodies were used to feed instead of wasting away and breaking hearts to end up flushed down the toilet.

[aSnakeLovinBabe]

I'm not so sure about baby corns as I have no first-hand witness of the babies eating crickets. I only have a half dozen or so people who witnessed it. In fact they pointed out individual neonates that eat crickets. Those were the larger ones that weren't emaciated. I did witness very young eastern ribbon snakes feeding on crickets on more than one occasion. Some of them subsisted on crickets as neonates, and even grew outgrew crickets to move on to more substantial meals.

All I am saying about baby corns is that the so-called "problem feeders" could all be saved and get them on proper food, if only they weren't sold before they had a chance. The young don't seem to care about what good food smells like, it's the motion that triggers a feeding response. big problem for inexperienced people who buy them as babies and expect them to eat dead pinkies.

Many of these unfortunate hatchlings just waste away in pet stores. I know they could be saved if only someone cared. Sad.

I say this to the people that breed hundreds of unwanted corns because they are looking for the perfect morph:

If the babies aren't wanted, cull them or sell them as food for other herps. Seriously. Don't have them waste away to poor husbandry only to get emaciated and end up dead in a pet store, or even worse, dead in the viv of a first timer who spent a fortune, and misguidedly ended up in charge of a baby snake.

That benefits neither the hobby as a whole, nor the possible future hobbiest who got turned off to snakes as a pet because of the horrible first experience. In the end, the buyer loses, the snakes loses, the hobby loses. If they are going to die, give them a purpose such as feeding other (somebody tell me the word that means snake-eating snake) snakes.

Directed at nobody and everybody: Don't discount your part in the big picture. How many offspring had to suffer the same fate for you to have the privilege of buying that rare morph at premium?

I'd feel much better about it if their bodies were used to feed instead of wasting away and breaking hearts to end up flushed down the toilet.
that would be ophiophagy :D

and I agree, there are far too many cornsnakes being produced. but people will never, ever change.

[Steven@HumboldtHerps]

This all brings forth too many bad memories with the Petco in my area. Once again, just the day before, a tankful of Eastern sirtalis with a dirty tank full of crickets! I complained to 3 people (cause you know everyone is so well-informed about everything!) and got 3 different responses: 1. "I didn't notice any crickets in there yesterday!" 2. "Uhhh, I'll tell the manager, but he's on his way home." and 3. "Petco has their garters trained on crickets!" (must be cheaper than guppies!)

And they have "nutrition experts" that work there! I have not witnessed garters eating crickets either, but supposing they did, well that's a bunch of snakes doomed to malnourishment!

I called my favorite complainer (she does rescues and adoptions); Petco corporate knows her on a first name basis!

[stripe&houdini]

At the petsmart here in bozeman, I have seen corn snake and even ball python cages full of crickets. This happens rarely though; maybe it is just some employee who doesn't know anything ocassionly told to feed the snakes.

[mustang]

thats the one thing i havent seen at a petco here.... insectavorus snakes!...seen other stuff tho

[Mommy2many]

My Petco has 2 sub-adult eastern garters. This is the first time I have ever seen garters in the store. I believe I had first seen them in November. Every time I go in (about once a week), I always go check on them first. I have never seen crickets in the tank but then again, I haven't seen anything else either. There is a young man who works there, who is always very friendly and asks me about my snakes when I come in. I think I'll track him down next time and ask him what they feed them. They do not look malnourished and their home is always clean. They are asking $20.00 each. I keep looking at them and saying to myself " You have 15 at home!" :o

[ConcinusMan]

that would be ophiophagy :D

and I agree, there are far too many cornsnakes being produced. but people will never, ever change.

Thank you for the word.

$20 for a garter snake? and a common one at that. Good grief. my petco had a gorgeous florida kingsnake for that price. Ribbon snakes are 5 bucks.

Honestly, most petco stores have a desired time limit that the snake is kept in the store. They were honest with me about it. The reason is because the conditions under which they are kept are less than ideal for some species. For example, the corn snake tank at my nearest store is around 82 degrees throughout the tank and around 50% humidity. There's no place warmer or cooler in the tank. They had a Florida king in different tank, but same conditions. Those conditions are fine for the short term but certainly not ideal for either species. They provide a "middle of the road" so they can have more flexibility of species.

They get the babies in too soon if you ask me. I swear they can't be more than a week old, so they do have yolk reserves but aren't proven eaters. I guess they figure they'll lose a few but if they can get them to eat crickets but not pinkies, it's better than nothing. They certainly don't have time to work with newborns to get them eating properly.

The only time I bought a snake there, they only had one in the tank. I'm normally careful about buying babies but I waited about 4 months, the snake was doing well and eating. When the price dropped due to the time limits, I bought it. I'd much prefer to buy a snake that's at least 5 months old to establish that it's doing well.

[krystalirelan@southslope.]

people want little snakes. They are cuter. what they don't realize is that they are so little because they have not been fed or not enough. We have one locally owned petstore that buys from us and we only sell when the babies have eatten 3x, in a row. all snakes are sold with our name and phone number given to the new owner. the petco told us they have thier own breeders in Conniticut (we r in iowa) that they buy all reptiles from. whn asked for names we were told that that info cold not be given out. needless to say we don't buy ANYTHING from them.

MORAL: shop locally!