Conditioned reflex garter snakes

[guidofatherof5]

Since I will have a lot of time on my hands after my upcoming shoulder surgery I thought I would put the time to good use.
I'm going to see if I can get a conditioned reflex response(feeding response) from a group of my adult radixes. I think we condition our garter snakes unknowingly anyway.
Pavlov is not the only person who can do this sort of thing. Here's what I plan to do.

I am going to run a 2.5 inch PVC pipe from one of my big enclosures out of the snake room to a location out of my snakes direct line of sight. Inside the enclosure I am going to attach a red led light which can be turned on from the other end of the pipe. I will probably run the wires thought the pipe. The end that is in the enclosure will have a screen over it, preventing the snakes from getting in the pipe. The pipe is only the delivery system for the food smell. At the other end of the pipe I will attach a small fan that will blow air into the pipe when it is turned on. I'll be using a video camera to watch their reactions.
Phase one will begin by me placing a food item(worms,pinkies) behind the fan, turning the fan on and seeing if there is a reaction from the snake as the food smell reaches the enclosure. I believe they will come out of there hide and search for the food source. I will then walk into the room and feed that group that food. If this part is successful I will continue feeding them in this way for 6 feedings.
Phase two is to introduce the light into the conditioning. Now, when I turn on the fan I will also turn on the light. I will then feed them as usual. I plan on doing this for 6 feedings.
Phase three will be turning on the light without the food scent and seeing if there is a reaction(coming out of there hides) from the snakes. I'm hoping that the light will trigger a feeding reaction without the smell of food.

My only concerns for this experiment is in the placement of the light and or the amount of lights I should use.
Should I place a light inside the hide or just around the enclosure so as many snakes as possible will see it? Should I place light inside the hide and around the enclosure?
Any thoughts on my upcoming project.

[confused]

I think phase one and two should be combined, fan and light in the same instance. It will raise the chance of a response and lower variables in the experiment.

[ConcinusMan]

Yes, use the light right from the start. Make sure they get a certain light only at feeding time, every time. It could take a while (if it happens at all) for them to associate the light with feeding time. My only concern with the light conditioning is that the bulb produces a light wavelength (color) that they can see, and that light (color) is not something they would see when it's not feeding time. Know what I mean? I don't know about using red though. Red to you can be invisible to them, and the bulb could produce light that they see as ordinary, thus defeating the purpose.

I'm still having a hard time with what you are trying to prove. Is it that you want to prove that they can be conditioned to expect food by a specific, unusual visual cue rather than scent? If that is so, you might want to re-think the plan and find another way to cue them. As far as I'm concerned, it has already been proven. I conditioned my WC concinnus to do that, but I got them when they were juviniles and by the time they figured it out, they were 3 or 4 years old and pretty big.

Even with no food smell around at all, I used to rub my index finger and thumb together close where they could see.(like I'm playing the worlds smallest violin) I always did that to get them interested, then went into the other room to get their food, then fed them. Once they figured that out, all I had to do was rub my fingers together in that certain way, and they would instantly go nuts, expecting food. It took about 3 or 4 years to get them fully conditioned like that, but I'm convinced it worked. They didn't react with a feeding response to normal handling and finger movements. Only after recognizing that one specific finger action, they would practically start striking even with no food around. Not only did the visual cue work, but they were able to differentiate it from normal finger movements, which is a good thing for obvious reasons. Of course, once food smell was on my fingers, all bets were off and fingers (and anything else with smell on it) became food in their minds.

Individual snakes will have varying "intelligence" too. What might work for one garter, may not work for another, even among the same species. I would try it with a very small group of females, perhaps 3. It took my male much longer to get it. Pick 3 of your favorite "intelligent" personable, tame adult females for the experiment.

I tried to condition CB offspring to do that but I usually didn't keep them longer than 2 years so they would react when I simply walked into the room, and showed great interest at the sight of a finger, regardless of the movements I made. Their WC parents knew the difference!

I would be highly surprised if you could prove conditioning in less than 2 years.

It wasn't scientific, I know. And I sort of fell into it accidentally. I was trying to show my family that they weren't just dumb creepy crawlers; that they were smart. I know it wasn't scientific and all that, but I know the snakes understood what those specific finger movements meant. 10-20 years with the same individual garters and you know know them very well. Each and every one, and all of their individual quirks.

[guidofatherof5]

I think phase one and two should be combined, fan and light in the same instance. It will raise the chance of a response and lower variables in the experiment.

I think having the stimuli separate from each other justifies the results if the light does invoke a response.

[guidofatherof5]

Yes, use the light right from the start. Make sure they get a certain light only at feeding time, every time. It could take a while (if it happens at all) for them to associate the light with feeding time. My only concern with the light conditioning is that the bulb produces a light wavelength (color) that they can see, and that light (color) is not something they would see when it's not feeding time. Know what I mean? I don't know about using red though. Red to you can be invisible to them, and the bulb could produce light that they see as ordinary, thus defeating the purpose.

I'm still having a hard time with what you are trying to prove. Is it that you want to prove that they can be conditioned to expect food by a specific, unusual visual cue rather than scent? If that is so, you might want to re-think the plan and find another way to cue them. As far as I'm concerned, it has already been proven.

Even with no food smell around at all, I used to rub my index finger and thumb together close where they could see.(like I'm playing the worlds smallest violin) I always did that to get them interested, then went into the other room to get their food, then fed them. Once they figured that out, all I had to do was rub my fingers together in that certain way, and they would instantly go nuts, expecting food. It took about 5 or 6 years to get them fully conditioned like that, but I'm convinced it worked. They didn't react with a feeding response to normal handling and finger movements. Only after recognizing that one specific finger action, they would practically start striking even with no food around.

I don't think the light color is of a great importance. They will see the movement(burning) of the light no matter what color it is. I will probably use white not red as I know they react to it.

I'm trying to prove, with a documented experiment that they can be conditioned. I already know they can but not in the way this experiment would do. Just appling an old principal to a different animal. One most people would not associate with this type of response.

[ConcinusMan]

I don't think the light color is of a great importance.

But it is important. I have lights that nocturnal snakes can't see at all. Some of them look RED to you and I. Some look similar to "black" light. The important part would be that it produces a visual cue that would not occur other than feeding time, and this can be produced by a light source which is only turned on at feeding time; true. But the color (actual wavelength) and even the specific balance of different colors, and intesity of the light could look very different to them as it does to you and me; also important. Also, two bulbs that look the same to you and I may look totally different to the snakes, or they may not see it as much of a change from the norm.

I was only suggesting that if there is a different visual cue under their normal lighting, such as a specific movement that perhaps it would remove variables that exist when using a light bulb. I understand that the bulb would be easier to implement. Just make sure that it is a very special bulb of a narrow wavelength and that it is within their visual range.(within the colors of their "rainbow" which is different than ours). Also make sure you have extras of the same bulb.


I really like your idea. I would really love to hear the results. I think your time frame is short, but I would love it for you to prove me wrong. Either way, it will be fun to hear your observations because you are so perceptive when it comes to these wonderful snakes.

[confused]

I think having the stimuli separate from each other justifies the results if the light does invoke a response.

The problem is if it doesn't invoke a response, you have to do the experiment again with them combined. However, if you do it with them both and it fails, you wouldn't have to do it again.

[guidofatherof5]

But it is important. I have lights that nocturnal snakes can't see at all. Some of them look RED to you and I. Some look similar to "black" light. The important part would be that it produces a visual cue that would not occur other than feeding time, and this can be produced by a light source which is only turned on at feeding time; true. But the color (actual wavelength) and even the specific balance of different colors, and intesity of the light could look very different to them as it does to you and me; also important. Also, two bulbs that look the same to you and I may look totally different to the snakes, or they may not see it as much of a change from the norm.
I was only suggesting that if there is a different visual cue under their normal lighting, such as a specific movement that perhaps it would remove variables that exist when using a light bulb. I understand that the bulb would be easier to implement. Just make sure that it is a very special bulb of a narrow wavelength and that it is within their visual range.(within the colors of their "rainbow" which is different than ours). Also make sure you have extras of the same bulb.
I really like your idea. I would really love to hear the results. I think your time frame is short, but I would love it for you to prove me wrong. Either way, it will be fun to hear your observations because you are so perceptive when it comes to these wonderful snakes.

I know that their eyes react to white light so I feel a secondary bulb that is only on at feeding time only will separate it from their normal lighting.

My time frame was just a guess but I feel confident that some result will be observed rather quickly.
I've got some pretty smart radixes.:D

[ConcinusMan]

Could work. I look forward to reading your observations.