A new visitor

[wadih]

Today on my way out, I saw two persons following something on the road. I went to check and saw a small snake on ground, it looked so tiny and fragile. They insisted on killing it saying that is venomous. However, I stopped them and took it. I put it in a small aquarium with a log and small bowl of water. Later on, and after it felt a bit safe, it started to move.

Its movement did look more like a python rather than a garter and its pattern looks so identified and clear like a rattle snake; however, I thought I am not the right person to decide what type is it. Any way and before I decide on keeping it or sending it out, I decided to take some pictures and post it. I am sure a lot of you can identify it better than me.

N.B. I know most of you are thinking about stefan the best to identify it; however I am not saying that cause I know the answer "Yeah, cut that out. I'm no authority" :D just joking... Any help would be highly appreciated.

[Stefan-A]

It's not a garter (no garters in the Old World), but it is a colubrid. It seems to put on a decent viper imitation, too. I assume the location is Lebanon?

[Stefan-A]

My best guess at the moment is Hemorrhois nummifer, Coin-marked snake.

[wadih]

thanks a lot stefan for the fast answer, and yes the location is Lebanon....

Do you think it is a good idea to keep it (at least till spring) or not? and what do you think a good food for it would be...

Thanks again for your help

[guidofatherof5]

Great save. Nice to know that sort of thing is happening all over the world. Someone needs to look out for them. Venomous or not, relocation is better than just killing them.
Keep up the good work and be careful.
I'm lucky, in that the area I live in has no venomous snake, so grabbing them is never a big deal.

I'm very curious as to its identification.

[Stefan-A]

No problem, I like a challenge. But I have to say, you took a great risk. It is a viper mimic and it seems to mimic the Palestine viper, Daboia (Vipera) palaestinae, which is very venomous. The pupils give it away as a colubrid, but still.

My book says it feeds on small mammals, lizards and small birds.


By the way: Amphibians and Reptiles of Europe (http://www.herp.it/) is a great place to find pictures for identifying reptiles and amphibians encountered in Europe and the surrounding region.

edit2: The generic name of the species it mimics, Daboia, should ring a bell to people who know a little about venomous snakes. It means it's closely related to the Russell's Viper.

[guidofatherof5]

Here's a link to the snake Stefan identified.
TrekNature | Hemorrhois nummifer (Coin Snake) Photo (http://www.treknature.com/gallery/Middle_East/Cyprus/photo157141.htm)

[wadih]

I just checked some Hemorrhois nummifer pics on the net, I guess you are right it is so similar to the snake I have here. In fact the first thing I noticed about is the way it hanged on the log. Although I did not take a pic of that but I just attached to message a picture from the net showing the way it was hanging from the log. It stayed like that for an hour or so inspecting the aquarium and deciding where to go.

Thanks Steve hopefully I will be able to feed it or at least keep it alive....

[guidofatherof5]

How about some more pics?

[wadih]

I guess we reached our target... It is a Palestine viper, the image on the net (although shows adults) is very similar to the baby I got. I guess the people were right it is venomous after all.
Thanks a lot stefan, you always have the right guess...

Hmmm the question now is what to do with it!!! I not only woundering if it is safe to keep or not but also what to do with it after that.....

[Stefan-A]

No, they were wrong, it's not venomous. But it could have been.

[wadih]

Sorry steve, guess we have to wait till tomorrow... I put a small box in the aquaruim and it is hiding inside it now. Maybe tomorrow it will go out, I will be there and take the pictures you askd for :)

[wadih]

No, they were wrong, it's not venomous. But it could have been.

I got the idea after checking this page
Vipera palaestinae - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vipera_palaestinae)

[guidofatherof5]

Can you find an area suitable to release it but away from people.

[Stefan-A]

I got the idea after checking this page
Vipera palaestinae - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vipera_palaestinae)
Yes, but the one you found is a harmless snake, that defends itself by pretending to be a Palestine Viper.

[wadih]

Yes, but the one you found is a harmless snake, that defends itself by pretending to be a Palestine Viper.

ok got that, but the point confusing me is that how you knew it is a viper mimic not a real one... It looks very similar to the Palestine viper.

Bare with me I am the new one here :)

[Stefan-A]

ok got that, but the point confusing me is that how you knew it is a viper mimic not a real one... It looks very similar to the Palestine viper.

Bare with me I am the new one here :)
The eyes. This snake has round pupils. Vipers nearly always have narrow, vertical pupils, but colubrids almost always have round ones.

There are some other signs as well, but they're harder to explain. The general appearance of it tells me it's not a viper.

[wadih]

Just read the link steve gave me:

TrekNature | Hemorrhois nummifer (Coin Snake) Photo (http://www.treknature.com/gallery/Middle_East/Cyprus/photo157141.htm)

The last section indicate that it is a fake vipe

"Attention: Pattern and coloration of this species, together with its behavioral displays, mimic the vipers, e.g., it forms a coil when approached, hisses loudly and rises its triangular head in an attack behavior. The local people mistake this species with Macrovipera lebetina (Levantine Viper), and thinking it as venomous, usually kill it. The local names “Batsalli” (“spotted”) and “Sagir Yilan” (“deaf snake”) are usually used for both of these species."

Guess that is what you refered to...

[wadih]

The eyes. This snake has round pupils. Vipers nearly always have narrow, vertical pupils, but colubrids almost always have round ones.

Ok thanks again, I checked the picture on the net... the eye looks narrow. Then the one we have is a non-venomous snake after all.

[ConcinusMan]

I have to agree with stefan. Even though that snake looks very much like a viper there is no way that it is actually a viper. Again, it's the round pupil that gives it away. Your snake is harmless. It's up to you to decide if you can care for it properly, or if you even want to. Either way, take it some place where there is appropriate habitat, far from people if you release it. He'll be safer that way.

Many harmless snakes in the U.S.A. get killed because they look like venomous snakes. Gopher snakes look like rattlesnakes and live in the same areas and so end up getting killed. Same goes for milk snakes and king snakes that live in the same areas as venomous coral snakes. I don't believe in killing any snake venomous or not, if it can be avoided safely. Good save. Your snake wouldn't have harmed anyone.

[wadih]

It is not only in USA, here people have high tendency towards killing snakes. In fact none of the people I know would hesitate in killing a snake as soon as they see it and regardless of its type, size or color. Although if they think about it, very few venomous snakes exist in my country, but it is a habit nothing else...

Regarding the snake I mentioned, I decided to keep it at least till the weather gets better and warmer. It has been couple of days since I put it in the aquarium, today was the first day that it goes out of the hiding place I installed in the aquarium for a quick discovery tour. I think in couple of days he will be ready to get his first meal. However, till now I did not figure out what to provide. Fish and chicken pieces will not work, maybe I will try a pinky or a semi boiled egg. In all cases, any help or idea would be great :)

Thanks a lot for asking and hopefully soon I will be able to take some more pics for it outside the hiding box...

[ConcinusMan]

OK, but after seeing a video that stephan posted today, I can't help thinking that the snake you have might have been photographed in very low light. Just make sure that when you expose that snake to bright light, make sure the pupils don't turn into verticle (upright) slits. Apparently some pit vipers do have round pupils but only in low light conditions. Just be careful. Avoid getting bitten. I still think your snake is harmless but there's no reason to get careless either.

I don't know what your snake eats but I would guess that rodents (pinkies) would probably be what he eats. Still, if you keep him cool, he'll be fine, and the need for food will be minimal. I would not worry so much about food at this time. If you plan to keep him longer than 30 days, then food is something you will have to consider. Always provide a shallow dish of water.

[Stefan-A]

Apparently some pit vipers do have round pupils but only in low light conditions. Just be careful.
They do, but I doubt it's dark enough. They're also supposed to dilate when the snake is agitated.

[ConcinusMan]

"Just be careful" still applies! :D Can't go wrong with that.

[wadih]

Our visitor just got his first tour in the aquarium. I got some new pics for him. Although it seems the snake is not venomous; however neither its attitude nor its looks indicate that. It is so aggressive and attacks almost anything moving around it. It is 10 grams and around 25 cm (10 inch) long.

Still no food, tomorrow morning I will put a small egg inside to see how the reaction will be...

According to the eye issue, I installed a light projector on the snake before taking the pictures. The eyes look smaller and circular.

Still waiting for your ideas :)

[guidofatherof5]

Very beautiful snake. Love the pattern.

I have to ask, is there anyone else in your city or area that has your interest in snakes?
In my town I seem to be the only one working with garter snakes. I'm sure there are other but I haven't met them yet. Garter snakes are looked down on in my area.
I get the strangest looks when I tell them I keep and raise them. They look at me and always ask, WHY? Trying to explain to them all the qualities I see, seems to confuse them.
They just can't understand it. Their loss.

[Stefan-A]

In my town I seem to be the only one working with garter snakes.
In your town? I think there are two or three at the most in this entire country.

[Stefan-A]

Our visitor just got his first tour in the aquarium. I got some new pics for him. Although it seems the snake is not venomous; however neither its attitude nor its looks indicate that. It is so aggressive and attacks almost anything moving around it. It is 10 grams and around 25 cm (10 inch) long.

Still no food, tomorrow morning I will put a small egg inside to see how the reaction will be...

According to the eye issue, I installed a light projector on the snake before taking the pictures. The eyes look smaller and circular.

Still waiting for your ideas :)
It's a beautiful snake, I wouldn't mind having one of those.

[ConcinusMan]

yes it is pretty. I wonder if it will stay that way as it grows. Now that I see it more clearly that is definitely a coin-marked snake.
Hemmorrhois nummifer. Very pretty and not venomous. Check out this web page: Coin-marked Snake, Hemorrhois nummifer (http://www.euroherp.com/species/Hemorrhois_nummifer/)

[wadih]

Thanks a lot, hopefully it will make it and start eating. I agree the pattern is great and pretty. However, in compare with garter or natrix it is so aggressive snake and very easily provoked.

I am sure there are very few snake owners in Lebanon; however, most of the snakes that are owned or can be found in pet shops are Pythons, Ball pythons and milk snakes. Garters are very few and barely exist. The rest are Natrix Persian and Natrix Tessellata, they are so common and are sold in many places; however, they are so cheap (not more than 2-3 USD / or max 12-15 USD during winter) which make them less valuable to be maintained and barely can fit as pet.

As steve said almost everybody consider it crazy to have snakes as pets and most of the people consider them bad luck to the house that they exist in. The first action when people see a snake here is to kill it if it is nearby or at least leave it and move away if it is far enough.

N.B. Do you think it is Coin Snake or Asian Racer? I cannot tell the difference....

[Stefan-A]

N.B. Do you think it is Coin Snake or Asian Racer? I cannot tell the difference....
Same species.

[wadih]

Same species.

hmmm thought so, thanks for the help.

[wadih]

After trying chicken, meat and salmon and nothing worked. Yesterday a mouse gave birth to 6 pinkies, it was her first delivery and for a strange reason she did not know how to feed them. I found 4 of them dead today, so I decided to try one with the new snake. Surprisingly it took him 10 minutes to swallow it.
I am really glad to get him eating at last. Any way I have 3 more for him for the coming weeks. Hopefully by the spring he will be ready to go back to the wild :)

Thanks everybody for the help...

[guidofatherof5]

That is great news. Thanks for taking the time to help that snake.

[Stefan-A]

After trying chicken, meat and salmon and nothing worked. Yesterday a mouse gave birth to 6 pinkies, it was her first delivery and for a strange reason she did not know how to feed them. I found 4 of them dead today, so I decided to try one with the new snake. Surprisingly it took him 10 minutes to swallow it.
I am really glad to get him eating at last. Any way I have 3 more for him for the coming weeks. Hopefully by the spring he will be ready to go back to the wild :)

Thanks everybody for the help...
Good news and no problem. :)

I'm going to have to check its protection status within the EU.

Edit: The species doesn't seem to be in either the CITES or EU appendices and is not a IUCN red-listed species. I might have to consider getting one, if I ever get the opportunity.

[drache]

great news
don't you think you might feel tempted to keep him?

[guidofatherof5]

The addiction has started.:D
Be careful, the town's people may try to run you out of town:D

[wadih]

Rhea: I really thought about it a lot. Especially since I found it on Christmas eve and I might consider it as gift :) However, in all cases he will be here at least for 3 more months. After that, I think it will be really hard to let it go. Let’s wait till that time ;)

Steve: They started running from my house at least :D Wait till they know that I will release snakes and then they will run away hahaha. Today I was cleaning a young Natrix Tessellata aquarium, he kept trying to run away so I let him go and enjoy his discovery trip of the house. After I finished the cleaning process, I looked for him and found him trying to go into another aquarium (he used to live in that one during summer), so guess after all they consider this as their home and never want to leave it. (Free shelter and food, who would leave that :) )

Stefan: I promise you if I am going to release the snake or if I ever find new one I will send to you. You only have to tell me how to send it to Finland. You can consider it as a late Christmas gift ;)

[Stefan-A]

Stefan: I promise you if I am going to release the snake or if I ever find new one I will send to you. You only have to tell me how to send it to Finland. You can consider it as a late Christmas gift ;)
That's okay, I bet I could find a breeder somewhere closer. ;)