Cold tolarance difference

[guidofatherof5]

At this time I have 2 different garter snakes in brumation. T.radix(plains garter snake) and T.s.parietalis(red-sided garter snake). My fridge is set at 42 degrees(6.11C) The temp is taken from the top shelf. Tonight it was time to check on water supplies and give them the quick once-over. I first checked in on the radix girls. First, I make sure there isn't too much moisture, then I check on them. I look for tongue flicking as a good sign that they are fine. My female radixes were moving in slow motion and so were the tongue flicks. My albino flattened her head and body and wanted to be left alone.
My t.s.p's were next. They are sitting on the very bottom of the compartment. When I opened the lid I saw both large females moving quickly and the tongue flicking was close to normal speed.
I find this very interesting since the bottom of the fridge should be colder than the top. Which means the snakes should be moving slower, right. Not the case here. I know that this is far from scientific but apparently T.s.parietalis can tolerate colder temps. than T.radix. I'm guessing this is because they range much farther north than T.radix. I have since started reading temps at the bottom. I don't have a reading yet.
I wonder? Should I brumate the parietalis at a lower temp.
http://www.thamnophis.com/thamphotos/data//500/medium/fridge.jpg
http://www.thamnophis.com/thamphotos/data//500/medium/fridge2.jpg

[MasSalvaje]

I'm guessing this is because they range much farther north than T.radix

I would say that their range goes farther North because they can tolerate the colder temps, not the other way around.


Should I brumate the parietalis at a lower temp.

I do not have experience with the parietalis but I would think that they would do just fine in the same temps as the radix. I know they have been documented at the same dens so I can't imagine them needing different temps.

-Thomas

[drache]

Steve, I've noticed the same thing
my parietalis are active in the mid-forty range
and I don't brumate garters from different regions the same any more
it makes to me, that the brumation needs for a parietalis would be different from a concinnus or a marcianus, at the extremes, but yes, they're even noticeably different from other northern occurring (sub-)species like sirtalis and radix

[ConcinusMan]

Hmmm... 42 seems lower than necessary. Sure, they can tolerate it but it's not necessary to go that low to get a breeding response in the spring. I know they are not the same but my concinnus bred with nothing less than 50 degrees for 4 months. I lost a few young ones by going down to around 40. And I'm sure you already know this, but even after surviving brumation it's the warm up that will kill them if it happens too fast. This seems to be especially true if you take them to their lower limits.

It doesn't matter if we have weeks of temperatures in the teens, if you go about 2 feet underground the temperature is around 50.

[tminc]

I was wondering about that,My wine cooler/garter garden spot is set on 50,it's in the garage so the temp varies from 45 to 55,try to keep it close to 50, the natural temp for underground around here is about 59,but I figure that is too warm and their metabolic rate will be to high? Any thoughts would be helpful. Thanx

[ConcinusMan]

I already told you my opinion, but yeah. Around 50 for 3 months and one more month that slowly warms to 60 is pretty easy on them and it does induce breeding once things warm to 75 or so. And I don't know about you guys but my concinnus always ate first, then shed, and immediately after the shed is when the magic starts.

[drache]

I still believe that what is appropriate for concinnus may not be for parietalis - it's a different climate region
I just checked my sun porch, and at 46ºF my parietalis male is trying to figure out how he can get over into the girl tank for some fun
I don't know whether they need it that cold, but my sun porch set-up needs more heat to maintain temps at 50º than at 46º - it's an economic issue for me
with that in mind, I've already brought in the concinnus and put them in an unheated indoor tank in a mid-60ies range area of the house, and the marcis never went outside
the sirtalis I've got out there right now are less active in those low temps, but the female not by much

[drache]

correct that - my particular easterns are much less active than the parietalis at colder temps; in addition they require more water
at 48º the easterns disappear into the damp hide or coil up in the water bowl
at 44º the parietalis are still cruising around and eyeing each other through the glass, but they are moving more slowly
kind of reminds me of this article I read not too long ago: The last word: Five minutes in the Arctic Ocean - THE WEEK (http://www.theweek.com/article/index/99282/The_last_word_Five_minutes_in_the_Arctic_Ocean)

[guidofatherof5]

Very interesting reading. Thanks for the link.

[drache]

here's another interesting article - not about snakes either
Remarkable Creatures - For Some Animals, Built-In Antifreeze Beats a Winter Coat - NYTimes.com (http://www.nytimes.com/2010/01/19/science/19creatures.html?th&emc=th)

[charles parenteau]

I hibernate MY eastern garter snake from Quebec AT 4 celcius ,I think its cold enough for Parietalis ,they tolarate the cold more than eastern.

I just take a look on all my adult eastern in the fridge at exactly 4 celcius ,I have 2 thermometer one with mercury another digital ,just to be sure and all 5 adult are full submerge in water...
I change the water bowl and put cold water from my fridge and when I took them into the new water bowl ,no move at all they are all in deep sleep.I will end the hibernation in february ...

ANd Steve I use aspen wood as beeding buy at Walmart,Its the best stuff Ive ever found for hibernation,I don't have any problem with humidity...and it's very easy to clean,usually I use aspen beeding for my large boa constrictor,but for hibernate my garter its awesome!!!

[Stefan-A]

There's an article somewhere mentioning T. marcianus getting neurological damage at temperatures that could be considered normal brumation temperatures for northern T. sirtalis. I'll see if I remember to look it up at some point.

[ConcinusMan]

I might have mentioned it before but I lost a few very young T.s. concinnus during, or coming out of brumation. I was a bit tough on them on purpose, bringing them down to around 40 F when they were only 4 months old. The goal was to weed out the weaklings because they were destined for release. With that goal in mind, I also didn't mess with non-feeders. I just fed the strongest, largest, and really just let the weaker one's die. I know it sounds barbaric but keep in mind what the goal was. To release very fit, strong babies in the spring. I only bred them for the experience.

Anyway, my point is, some of those babies had "seizures" during, or coming out of brumation. Most of those that survived brumation, but seized coming out, didn't make it. It's apparent to me that the deaths were cause by neurological complications. There was obvious twitching, curling, etc. Good news is, those deaths were few when compared to to the number of young that made it and thrived.

[bkhuff1s]

This is my first hibernation experience, which I'm trying to induce breeding from my Pugets Sounds Garters. I have been taking them off food for about a month now, and removed the under tank heater at the same time. Last year they did not hibernate and I did not have a breeding response from them either. I put them in the mini fridge on the lowest setting which was stable at 47 degrees. The they have been in there for about 4 hours, and when I looked in there it was 54 degree's and the female has shed and crapped all over the inside... does anyone else snake respond in this manner?

[guidofatherof5]

This is my first hibernation experience, which I'm trying to induce breeding from my Pugets Sounds Garters. I have been taking them off food for about a month now, and removed the under tank heater at the same time. Last year they did not hibernate and I did not have a breeding response from them either. I put them in the mini fridge on the lowest setting which was stable at 47 degrees. The they have been in there for about 4 hours, and when I looked in there it was 54 degree's and the female has shed and crapped all over the inside... does anyone else snake respond in this manner?

I think the whole shed and poop thing was a matter of timing and not a response to brumation. On the good side you know that snake should be cleaned out and its gut ready for brumation.
Best of luck. Keep us informed.

[bkhuff1s]

Well I guess I'm just doing the first time freak out. Just concerned for my snakes that's all

[guidofatherof5]

Well I guess I'm just doing the first time freak out. Just concerned for my snakes that's all

Don't worry about it. I still worry about mine in the fridge.
They're a lot tougher than we give them credit for.:D

[drache]

I am always checking my snakes and their brumation set-up, and your anxiousness is normal to me