Water Importance

[guidofatherof5]

Watching my large groups of snakes has shown me the importance water plays in their lives. My garters drink a lot of water. I try very hard to change all water dishes everyday. Yes, I'm guilty of letting a few of them go an extra day if they have not been used as a toilet but never any longer than that. I know that they can go a long time without drinking and I know that they will drink from any source of water in the wild. Much of this water unfit for human consumption.
Many of my snakes come out and gather around the water dish when I fill them. I think they are hoping there will be some fish in all that splashing.
I guess the reason for this thread was to stress the importance water plays in their lives.
Since they are in our care, it should be the importance of available, clean, fresh water.

[ConcinusMan]

When it comes to birds and water loving reptiles, it's the #1 concern. Fresh, clean water. Change frequently, and even use a little bleach to clean the container. For snakes, and even birds, this is the most important thing. Food and proper nutrition / climate comes second.

[wadih]

I fully agree with you, two months ago one of my snakes had strange kind of pimples and after I asked for help in the urgent care forum some of the friends suggested to keep the snake in dry place so I started to minimize the quantity of water in the aquarium. Although the treatment worked fine, it was so clear that the snake was suffering from lack of water and as soon as I introduce the small quantity of water I used to put, the snake used to jump inserting his head in the water and drinking as much as possible from it.

[guidofatherof5]

I think many times food sources gets the attention and I felt water should have its due.
I love to watch my large groups of babies. Their water dishes are centrally located and seem to always have a visitor. Some of my adults seem to get in the water and do laps. They stop and rest on the water dish edge. Then, catch a few more laps. I think water is enjoyable to them. If not, it sure is enjoyable to me to watch them.
I wish I could give them very large water sources.

[ConcinusMan]

Well wadih, your friend wasn't totally wrong. Often those "pimples" you speak of are caused by a constantly moist substrate. I've seen it happen time and time again. Garter snakes seem especially prone to that problem. Overcrowding and/or constantly moist substrate will cause skin infections like you described. They look like pimples, usually on the belly, and they are filled with pus. This is why you should never use aquarium gravel or other non-absorbant substrate. Recommended substrates can be found here in the forum.

You never want to deprive garters of a source of fresh water to drink. And you always want to have a bowl of water big enough for them to curl up in and soak. However, if you can't keep the substrate dry, then your setup needs to be re-designed or re-evaluated. Even "aquatic" species of garters require no more water or moisture than terrestrial species, and ALL need to have a clean dry substrate to lie on. Even if they love to soak, they should always have a clean dry place to go when they are done with their bath.

It's clear that you may have taken the "treatment" a little too far. You're learning from the experience and that's what matters. Also you have this community of experienced garter keepers you can draw on, so stick around, and ask lots of questions, whether you think the question is stupid, or not.

Basically, like I said, you need a clean, dry surface for the snakes to live on, but they should always have the option of a good soak in the "tub" too. Glad to hear the infection cleared up. Often times, even after correcting the condition that caused the infection, it won't clear up without more aggressive treatment. In advanced cases, I resorted to scrub downs using "Hibiclens" (active ingredient Chorhexidine). Yes, I know it's poison, but it worked. The snakes I speak of were doomed to certain death if I didn't do something. They recovered. (and heck no, they weren't my snakes. I was just helping out others)

Anyway, during treatment, the snakes were kept in sterile containers, sterilized daily while the snakes were being treated with the antiseptic, and were offered the opportunity to drink twice daily.

[Lovok]

The subject of water has been on my mind lately, so it's a neat coincidence I'm finding this now. Scylla seems to have little to no interest in it, for drinking or anything else. I've had three different types of water dishes for her (a Tupperware lid, a microwave/ceramic plate, and the current habitat dish I got at a reptile trade show). She just seems so atypical from what I've read here about other easterners. She's only ever used it as a toilet once, has never soaked in it, and though I know she drinks, I rarely ever see her drinking. I change the water every other day because her tank doesn't have a particulate substrate, nor anything else that would foul the water (grass, bark, plant parts, etc.). I'm starting to think I have one flaky garter! :-)

[guidofatherof5]

The subject of water has been on my mind lately, so it's a neat coincidence I'm finding this now. Scylla seems to have little to no interest in it, for drinking or anything else. I've had three different types of water dishes for her (a Tupperware lid, a microwave/ceramic plate, and the current habitat dish I got at a reptile trade show). She just seems so atypical from what I've read here about other easterners. She's only ever used it as a toilet once, has never soaked in it, and though I know she drinks, I rarely ever see her drinking. I change the water every other day because her tank doesn't have a particulate substrate, nor anything else that would foul the water (grass, bark, plant parts, etc.). I'm starting to think I have one flaky garter! :-)


Unless you're watching her all the time, you might be surprised how much time Scylla spend in it. She may require less water time or it's just a personnality thing. Flaky! I doubt it.:D
Does she use all 3 as a toilet or does she have a favorite?

[Lovok]

I have her tank in my bedroom. I live in a house w/ a roommate who's tolerant of her, but wouldn't handle her if his life depended on it, so I keep her where I'm sure if she escapes, she'll still likely to be somewhere I can track her down (which has already happened once LOL). She's on my dresser by the foot end of the bed, so I can lay & watch her as I watch TV, which is as relaxing as watching fish! So I do see her activities pretty often. I've the one water dish for her now- this one:

Zoo Med Repti Ramp Bowl at PETCO (http://www.petco.com/product/14367/Zoo-Med-Repti-Ramp-Bowl.aspx)

If she's using it as a pool, she's really on the down low with it. One of the days when I was cleaning her tank, I put some water in the bath tub and let her swim around for about half an hour. She didn't seem real happy about it, but I think it just scared her from being in such a different environment with different smells. I had a lot of fun watching her though. LOL Once I took her out and was holding her again, she calmed down in no time at all. I think I'll probably let her swim like that a little more often since she doesn't seem to use the dish.

She's come a long way since July when I found her. She'll wrap around my fingers and crawl all around my hands, and very rarely does she "bolt" like she used to. Her eating habits have changed too since the weather's gotten colder. I think she's got an "internal clock" that's telling her she should be hibernating, but she isn't, so she's adjusting by not eating as much or being as active in her tank.

I know she knows where the water is, and she can get to it, so as long as I keep it fresh and available, I'm not going to worry too much about it. But she does seem to have an on-going development to her personality. I'm finding garters have a way of keeping owners on their toes that way, don't they? LOL

[ConcinusMan]

I'm going to assume this is an adult or near adult when you got her and that you haven't had her very long (less than 2 years). If so, you two are still developing your relationship. That's why you're noticing the "on-going development to her personality". Part of it is her growing accustom to you, part of it is you're getting to know her. If she's wild-caught then yes, there's going to be some internal clock telling her it's winter but that shouldn't have an influence next winter. Unless you have some full spectrum lighting and set the day length to that of summer,(along with the temperature) there's going to be a seasonal change in behavior. Even when I didn't full-out brumate my garters, I went ahead and let the days get short, and kept them a bit cooler. It's good you're so aware of these observations. It's important for you to know what's "normal" for each snake as an individual. That way, you know when something isn't right with her.

Anyway, the ramp dishes are good choice for garters as long as their big enough for the snake to curl up in, and just make sure she always has water and that it's clean and don't fret over whether she uses it or not. Keep a good humidity gauge in there too and be sure that her humidity stays 50%-70%. Sometimes in the winter the air just gets to darn dry so if it's below 50 you might want to give her a mist now and then.

[drache]

some of my garters like to bathe a lot, others don't, but they all get dishes large enough so they can if they want to
I did have an incident with blisters in a garter that liked to soak too much
she was housed with two others on the same dry substrate and there were no mites or anything - she just liked to soak, and she was the only one with blisters
when I discovered the three blisters, I separated her and gave her a water bowl too small for her to get much more than her head into and treated the blisters with nolvasan ointment (chlorhexidine); they took a long time to go away and left some scarring
I don't bathe my reptiles in the bathtub, because I think there's probably a lot of chemical residues from our soaps and stuff, even though we use unscented, relatively benign products
I have a large under bed storage sterilite container that's almost as big as the bathtub and fits right in it, so I can tilt and dump when I'm done; I also use a tap water detoxifier, and when I clean the container I use the same stuff I use on enclosures and cage furnishings

[ConcinusMan]

I've always just used plain tap water. Considering what's in the water where I find healthy concinnus in the wild, I highly doubt that anything in our tap water is going to hurt them. (we actually have some of the best tap water in the country)

Yeah, that's right. I'm a bad daddy. Untreated tap water and gold fish. WC and never dewormed, never saw a vet. Poor guys. They only lived 2 decades.

[MasSalvaje]

I've always just used plain tap water. Considering what's in the water where I find healthy concinnus in the wild, I highly doubt that anything in our tap water is going to hurt them. (we actually have some of the best tap water in the country)

Yeah, that's right. I'm a bad daddy. Untreated tap water and gold fish. WC and never dewormed, never saw a vet. Poor guys. They only lived 2 decades.

Those things may have worked for you and the two garters that did so well but I know others have had very bad experiences by doing, or not doing, those same things.

You can't pass those things off as across the board acceptable care based on experiences of 2 specimens. You also can't look at solely longevity to determine if an animal thrived or not.

I don't mean to bash you or your husbandry techniques but I do think you should point out that just because something has worked for you does not mean that it will work with every other species or even every individual within that species.

-Thomas

[ConcinusMan]

oh I know. I'm just saying I didn't know any better and it just so happened that all of my snakes over the years did just fine. Not just two of them. In another example I had an ordinoides that exceeded the so called "maximum" size by about 2 inches, and made it 13 years in captivity. Like I said, our water is exceedingly good, and I imagine that my goldfish source probably was not high in thiaminase, and they got lots of other food sources besides "bad" fish. As to whether they thrived or not, of that I have no doubt whatsoever. If you are concerned about additives in the water where you live, I would use spring water, or even distilled rather than put more additives that supposedly "treat" the water. Most of my snakes did come from highly polluted water sources, and yet the area is still full of healthy, large snakes. I'm just saying the water they are drinking in the wild is far worse than my tap water, and is full of fertilizers and petroleum products.

[drache]

I only treat tap water for bathing - the drinking water they get is filtered tap water
our water is supposed to be among the best in the US, but it does travel through an awful lot of pipe before it comes out of our faucet, so I just want to take the edge of whatever traces of heavy metals and treatment plant chemicals may come with it
I'm not fond of adding chemicals, but I think a squirt of stresscoat is relatively benign, not to mention that the aloe in it is kind of a nice bath addition

[aSnakeLovinBabe]

my snakes get tap water straight from the sink... it IS well water though... so it's not chlorinated, or fluoridated... or anything like that!! It's great water actually, I can actually take our water and put fish (i keep fish) straight into it. Actually when I bring the feeder guppies home from the store, I bring them in a bucket of their fish tank water. If i leave the guppies in that over half will die (went through this at least a dozen times) but if I put them in MY water they thrive!!! So if it's perking up my guppies I figure, it can't hurt my snakes :)


water that is bottled in plastics is a lot worse than many think it is. The plastics release toxins, and many sources of bottled water are just straight tap water put into a bottle. You have to read labels carefully, for clues like "obtained from a public water source".

[Zgi]

I've got a question on this.
At the moment theres a bassin in my terrarium, containing ca. 3 liters.
Now i'd like to attach an Aquarium, size: 30x30x30 (or higher)
The Terrarium is integrated in a cupboard und so there would be a possibility to build an additional floor comprehending an aquarium.
Terrarium's size is: 150x40x40 (l,w,h)
What do you think - is this possible or should i keep the bassin?

MfG
Marc

[drache]

another piece of input for those of us who don't have access to uncontaminated springs
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/12/17/us/17water.html?th&emc=th

[gregmonsta]

I always treat my water ... but then it is how I add vitamins and calcium into their diets. Soluble vitamins and calcium are much less hassle and I find it a lot easier to administer a constant trace amount in this fashion.
Scottish water is known to be fantastic (unless you live in Edinburgh) ... but I always allow the cold water to run for a minute or so before I take water fromm the tap ... the reason being - Have you ever seen how dirty the insides of a hot water tank can get?

[ConcinusMan]

my snakes get tap water straight from the sink... it IS well water though... so it's not chlorinated, or fluoridated... or anything like that!! It's great water actually, I can actually take our water and put fish (i keep fish) straight into it. Actually when I bring the feeder guppies home from the store, I bring them in a bucket of their fish tank water. If i leave the guppies in that over half will die (went through this at least a dozen times) but if I put them in MY water they thrive!!! So if it's perking up my guppies I figure, it can't hurt my snakes :)


water that is bottled in plastics is a lot worse than many think it is. The plastics release toxins, and many sources of bottled water are just straight tap water put into a bottle. You have to read labels carefully, for clues like "obtained from a public water source".

That's why I suggested spring water or distilled. Other bottled water from municiple sources has been dechlorinated at least. And always check the expiration. It takes time for the plastic to foul the water. Anyway, there's nothing added to my tap water besides chlorine gas to sanitize it. Chlorine gas dissipates pretty fast once it's placed in an open container. I don't know about guppies, but goldfish survive in my tap water once it's allowed to "air out" for a day. More than half will survive anyway, straight out of the tap. But heck, if you live outside of a big city, or otherwise do not have much in the way of air pollution, there's probably nothing wrong with collecting rain water/snow and using that.

[guidofatherof5]

Thought I would give this a bump.

Water is such an important item for them.

[BUSHSNAKE]

for sure! and thats why humidity is important too, the drier the air the more moisure they lose

[Invisible Snake]

Yeah water is of great importantance to garters. About a week and a half ago we had a brief heatwave here in NYC and my checkereds were constantly inside their waterbowl, it was as if it were a jacuzzi, they had their entire bodies submerged with only their heads sticking out or laying on the rim of the waterbowl.

[Steveo]

Steve, have you considered doing a "tip of the day/week" sticky? I'd love to have a place to go when I need some expert knowledge dropped on me.

[guidofatherof5]

Steve, have you considered doing a "tip of the day/week" sticky? I'd love to have a place to go when I need some expert knowledge dropped on me.

The expert knowledge is this forum ;)

[thamneil]

Steve you should really do a tip of the day/week sticky! You are a wealth of knowledge! That would be such a beneficial thread to a lot of people.

[guidofatherof5]

I feel rather stupid for not mentioning it but it is very important that the water dish is removed and hand clean/scrubed out. In the past I've gotten lazy and simply wipe the plastic water dish out with a paper towel and called it good. it wasn't good enough.
I'm not sure if the issue is with my water or the interaction of the water with the plastic but a thin film of slime(only word to describe it) develops on the dish and the only way I can get it out is to scrub it out with a brush.
I keep plenty of scrubbed water dishes of all sizes ready to just exchange with the dirty one. This allows me time to scrub them clean at a later time.

http://www.thamnophis.com/thamphotos/data//500/medium/water_dishes.jpg

[Steveo]

The slime you mention is probably a bacterial colony. It could be harmless but better safe than sorry.

[guidofatherof5]

Thought I'd give this a bump.

[RedSidedSPR]

I'm guilty of leaving it for a day or two if its clean but it's really important I've come to realize.. more then you might think.

[Light of Dae]

I have two dishes of water in each of my babies tanks. So that they can always drink from one that isn't being swam in... as well if one gets pooped in while I'm away at work they have fresh water still. Started doing it for George as he loves to poop in his water... brat. Seen him swimming in one he pooped in and then had a drink from the clean one. Silly guy.

[RedSidedSPR]

They definately recognize whether it's clean or not..

[taharial]

Curious, how big are your water bowls? I think ours is a 3x5? I notice Mamas LOVES the clean water! Once she knows it is fresh she crawls in and out and redunks herself with substrate stuck to her, and soaks for a bit. It is ridiculous to keep clean! Silly snake.

[guidofatherof5]

I offer as big a water dish as possible. Many enclosure have dishes that hold a little over a gallon of water.

[snake man]

I have multiple smaller water bowls around the enclosure.

[d_virginiana]

In two of my tanks I have smaller dishes to conserve space, but my larger tank has two small ones and one that's one of those plastic things that you use for paint rollers. Harley really seems to like swimming around and playing in it.

[RedSidedSPR]

Mine are just big enough for them to fit in easily.. I'm about to upgrade 'em all, removing the cool looking aspect, for the sake of size

[taharial]

Wow, we might need a bigger pool then. lol. I love the paint roller idea! Thanks!

[ConcinusMan]

Curious, how big are your water bowls? I think ours is a 3x5? I notice Mamas LOVES the clean water!

Yeah, mine love the fresh water too. They don't hesitate to go diving in it and then immediately crapping in it after I just changed it and sanitized the bowl.:rolleyes:

[guidofatherof5]

Bump

[chris-uk]

I had the good old, "There's clean water, I'll crap in there" yesterday. Within half an hour of changing the boys' water there was a floater.

[slipknot711]

hahaha a floater :D i have two water spots for my garters but nomatter what they all flock to the same one at the same time... so i will be upgrading their main bowl very soon

[joeysgreen]

Have you guys considered adding a filter to the water feature? What about a flow-through system? A lot of initial work can be rewarding for the snakes with a forever supply of fresh, clean water, and you, with much less maintainence. Zoological and scientific enclosures are catagorized by the amount of automation and controls over the environment.

[chris-uk]

I've considered a flowing water supply in one of my vivs, but I don't think the filters would be good at dealing with "large biological matter"... Mostly because I think the crap would sit in the bowl.

[PsychedelicTarantulas]

I always use untreated tap water for all my animals. Even my Tropical Fish tanks and no problems here.

[chris-uk]

I always use untreated tap water for all my animals. Even my Tropical Fish tanks and no problems here.

I don't know anyone that keeps tropical fish alive using untreated tap water. There must be something special about your water supply because normally tap water results in dead fish.

[-MARWOLAETH-]

I had a goldfish live to 17 on untreated tap water

[Saji]

I am still amazed at how long garters can remain full submerged.

[guidofatherof5]

Their oxygen requirement are small.


My Vet. did exploratory surgery on one of my snakes finding cancer. I had him put her down rather then wake her. He gave her the same cocktail of drugs dogs get. He said he would leave her on the gas for an hour to be sure she was gone. He said there respiratory and circulatory systems are slow and time was needed. This was just the opposite with my dog Allygirl. The needle entered her skin and she was gone. In the blink of an eye. Still one of the saddest days of my life.

[Saji]

Sorry Steve, been there myself with the dog. I counted 1 1/2 minutes with one of my radixs fully submerged. WOW!

[chris-uk]

Over well in excess of 10 minutes underwater for my male Cuitzeo. I think it was somewhere between 11 and 12 minutes that I timed... It was a couple of years ago so I forget the exact time.

[snipstedy]

What about rain water that collects outside? will this be healthy?

[guidofatherof5]

The way I see it there are two schools of thought here.

#1. Rain water is one of the water sources they would be drinking from in nature. So, why not use it.

#2. Now, that they are in captivity the level of care should increase. Tap water is clean, filtered and has far less the contaminants of rain water.
Think about it this way. In captivity we try our best to feed them foods that are nutritious and non-harmful. Water shouldn't be any different. Rain water picks up contaminants as it falls and once it's down. ;)

Well, those are my thoughts on the question.

[Saji]

I'm going to bump this since its so important for all reptiles.

[chris-uk]

I'm going to bump this since its so important for all reptiles.

A six hour old thread doesn't really need bumping.

[Herp Derp]

I had a goldfish live to 17 on untreated tap water

goldfish are very hardy, they tend to be abused in the fish hobby.

[Saji]

I wasnt paying attention. What would we do without you chris:-)