Share your Elgaria pics!

[Steven@HumboldtHerps]

I love alligator lizards! Here is my favorite sighting for 2009! It's a Shasta Alligator Lizard (Elgaria coerulea shastensis) from Denny, CA in Trinity County

http://www.humboldtherps.com/images/20090711HCHSimage-Shasta_Alligator_Lizard_GPS-DENNY-ELGCSHA-01_E.JPG

[Steven@HumboldtHerps]

other sightings...

E. c. shastensis/principis intergrades
(South Jetty, Humboldt Bay, Humboldt County, CA)http://www.humboldtherps.com/images/03-11-2008HCHSimage-Northwestern_Alligator_Lizard_3a_NW-_1_.jpg


http://www.humboldtherps.com/images/20090220-HSHSimage-Shasta-NW_intergrade_E._coerulea_01B-South_Spit_at_glider_jump.JPG


Northwestern (E. c. principis) (Hunter Creek, Del Norte County, CA)
http://www.humboldtherps.com/images/HCHSimage-Northwestern_Alligator_Lizard1b_-_Hunter_Creek_Del_Norte_08-06-2007.JPG

[Steven@HumboldtHerps]

Shasta Alligator Lizard (E. c. shastensis) (Willow Creek, Humboldt County, CA)http://www.humboldtherps.com/images/05-10-2008HCHSimage-Shasta_Northern_Alligator_Lizard_adult_male_1A_-_East_Fork_Willow_Creek.JPG

Shasta Alligator (Bald Hills, Redwood National Park, Humboldt County, CA)
http://www.humboldtherps.com/images/2008-07-17HCHSimage-unusual_Elgaria_1a_-Bald_Hills_Redwood_National_and_State_Parks_.JPG
http://www.humboldtherps.com/images/2008-07-17HCHSimage-unusual_Elgaria_1b_-Bald_Hills_Redwood_National_and_State_Parks_.JPG

Oregon Alligator Lizard (Elgaria multicarinata scincicauda)
(Hiouchi Flat, Jed Smith Redwood SP, Del Norte County, CA)
http://www.humboldtherps.com/images/20090421HCHSimage-Oregon_Alligator_Lizard_GPS-HIOUCHI-ELGMSCI-01_4_.JPG

[ConcinusMan]

The fourth pic is definitely a northern alligator lizard, pretty close to adult size, and live bearing.(notice his scales aren't heavily keeled like the southern, larger ones) They tend to be brown, like that, too.Tons of them can be found around my area. In early spring, when they are in breeding mode, the males' heads turn a sort of pinkish/coppery color and they will fight to the death if placed together.

In San Diego, in more inland "desert" like areas, as opposed to coastal scrub, I found southern alligator lizards that were downright monsterous! close to 2 feet long (snout to vent) with monsterous skulls/jaws. They would hiss loudly if cornered, with an open mouth. If captured, they would smear feces and deliver and painful, bleeding bite! I kept a few that size. They ate pinkies and baby birds! and occasionally lay eggs for me. My northern's were smooth, small, ate crickets and were live bearing. Sorry, no pics though. They are buried somewhere, lord knows where.

[ssssnakeluvr]

very nice lizards!!!

[ConcinusMan]

It would be interesting to see if those "intergrades" lay eggs or bear live young since all Southern's I had laid eggs, all northerns bore live.

[Steven@HumboldtHerps]

The fourth pic is definitely a northern alligator lizard, pretty close to adult size, and live bearing.(notice his scales aren't heavily keeled like the southern, larger ones) They tend to be brown, like that, too.

The Northwestern Alligator Lizard is a subspecies of the Northern Alligator Lizard. Northerns (the live-bearers) usually have brown eyes and their ventral scales are divided by dark pigmentation; Southerns usually have yellow eyes and their ventral scales have dark pigmentation running down the center of the scale.

This is a Northern Alligator Lizard (principis/shastensis intergrade zone)
http://www.humboldtherps.com/images/nw_alligator_lizard_-_elgaria_coerulea_principis_-_stinky_beach_04-24-2006.jpg

This is the belly of a Southern Aligator Lizard (scincicauda ssp.)
http://www.humboldtherps.com/images/03-25-2007_Oregon_Alligator_Lizard_ventral_ID_-_Kneeland_CA.jpg

[Steven@HumboldtHerps]

In San Diego, in more inland "desert" like areas, as opposed to coastal scrub, I found southern alligator lizards that were downright monsterous! close to 2 feet long (snout to vent) with monsterous skulls/jaws. They would hiss loudly if cornered, with an open mouth. If captured, they would smear feces and deliver and painful, bleeding bite!

I grew up in San Diego, so I know exactly what you are talking about. The San Diego Alligator Lizard (E. multicarinata webbi) is a monster! Bloodthirsty, stinky, dragons from hell... just kidding... My finger has fallen victim to their jaws many a time!

When you find an old male with an intact tail, it is truly a magnificent sight to see.

[ConcinusMan]

True, true. I had moved from the Northwest to San Diego and was used to the Northwestern alligator lizards (The only lizard to be found in my county) so imagine my shock the first time I saw one of those San Diego monsters! I fully expected the huge gopher snakes and king snakes, but had no idea at the time that an alligator lizard could be so huge and vicious! I can't credit myself with finding the largest one I had. A cat had cornered it against a church and was swatting at it. Man, was that lizard ticked off! (22 inches, snout to vent)

[Stefan-A]

Interesting-looking natricines.

[Steven@HumboldtHerps]

Interesting-looking natricines.

I thought the lounge was a place where you could talk about things other than garters!

[Stefan-A]

I thought the lounge was a place where you could talk about things other than garters!
It is, but the normal policy is that the animals that get their own threads in the lounge should at least be New World or Old World natricines. The rest should in principle be posted either in suitable existing threads or if one can come up with a topic that's versatile enough that there's no need to start a new practically identical thread in the future, then it would be okay to discuss these in the Lounge. A rule of thumb could be that the topic should preferably be broad enough to include garters or at the very least their close relatives. In other words, if you want to discuss Elgaria, you can do it in a thread that leaves room for everything under Squamata.

I'll leave this one alone, for now. But I won't make a habit out of it. ;)



It all goes back to a period when they (the staff at that time) did allow anything at all to be discussed in the Lounge. The Lounge and eventually other sections started to get clogged up with threads about issues that have absolutely nothing to do with the name of the forum and that would have been much more appropriate on forums dedicated to those issues. When it was at its worst, people did post five times as much, but almost no posts were actually about garters. So we started implementing much stricter rules to get the situation back under control. It wasn't pretty and people weren't happy, but the change did what it was intended to do.

[Steven@HumboldtHerps]

I'm sorry, I didn't think about that. Your explanation is sound. If I have new pic posts off genera, I'll use the nature photography thread.

It's just so tempting to share other stuff. I usually have to squeeze in time to make posts, so I dare not bog myself down with the hunt for other (perhaps more applicable) forums. After all, I do like to focus on Thamnophis.

[tspuckler]

I love Alligator Lizards. I found the best looking Northern I've ever seen on Easter Sunday:

http://i265.photobucket.com/albums/ii204/tspuckler/northerne.jpg

And I've seen some Southerns with quite a bit of red (not the best example, but you get the idea):

http://i265.photobucket.com/albums/ii204/tspuckler/mtalligator3.jpg

[ConcinusMan]

I have occasionally found southerns with high red, but they were very young, like your example. It fades away. That one there is already fading away.

All I have where I live now is northwesterns. They all look the same. Drab brown. Maybe a few black speckles, like this one:
http://www.californiaherps.com/lizards/images/ecprincipis3dn.jpg
They don't do as well in captivity as southern's though. They prefer cool temperatures and moist conditions so don't do very well indoors.

[ConcinusMan]

Littlebip; a new member; PM'd me and asked me if I had any experience or advice for keeping Elgaria c. principis (Northwestern Alligator Lizard). Due to PM character limits, I'm posting my answer here:

Northwesterns are pretty distinct looking and need different care than most Alligator lizards. They are a little harder to keep indoors under normal conditions. If you're sure it's a northwestern (it will have almost smooth scales, very lightly keeled if at all, and very dark eyes, no yellow) then read on.

WARNING: these lizards, specifically Northwesterns, if kept properly, and healthy, will bore you and rarely make an appearance voluntarily. Not recommended for beginners. Even if you've kept other alligator lizards before, keep in mind that these are different. southern alligator lizards, or most CA species generally are easier to keep.

Yes, I have kept Northwestern alligator lizards. They're not as easy to keep as most alligator lizards but are very cold hardy. They are solitary and secretive. I have kept several together but sometime in March (shortly after emerging from brumating) the males' heads turn a different color (usually slate gray or copper colored) than the rest of the body. At that time, males will fight violently. That lasts perhaps 3 weeks and then once their heads go back to normal they can be kept together but make sure there's plenty of room for them to get out of each others' way. I don't know of any sure-fire way to tell the sexes apart outside of the breeding time. They spend most of their time under leaf litter and debris and only bask in the sun on cold spring or fall mornings. You'll rarely see them in the open especially during warm summer months. Very chilly sunny mornings is when you can find them basking in the wild or in captivity.

Housing: I recommend a 30 inch long (20 gal reptile enclosure for 1 or 2 lizards) in order to provide a wide gradient of heat/moisture. You should keep it alone or with it's own kind due to special temperature/light/moisture needs. Because of similar environment needs, I once housed 2 of them in a very large tank with a rubber boa. Also kept them with Western Skinks (Eumeces skiltonianus) but otherwise, I'd say keep it separate. Substrate of river sand and dry collected leaf litter works fine, or coconut fiber, or small bark substrate is OK 1-2 inches deep. Pieces of bark to hide under, a layer of dead leaves, or other hiding places should be abundant. Keep hiding places moist underneath(but not wet) and generally moist on the cool end. Curved fir bark is good. No special lighting is necessary, but I would recommend at least some florescent or natural indirect light and a regular day/night cycle. They don't climb or burrow generally but love to hide in moist/moderately cool places during the day underneath debris.

Temperatures: As a general guideline, provide a gradient of 60-82 degrees, 40-60 at night. Seems to be most active/feeding at 65-80 degrees if provided with a 10-20 degree drop at night. Critical (can't survive for long outside the limits) temperature tolerant limits (low/high) are as low as 26 degrees F but only as high as 95 F. 100 degrees can kill them in a short time. They can survive for nearly a year in a refrigerator, but only minutes in HOT conditions. A significant night time drop is best. They don't bask much but I used a tiny basking light for couple of hours on one end following a cool night (down to 50-60 degrees) and my lizards used the spot until they warmed up, and that was the best time to feed them. Just make sure the cool end doesn't exceed 75 degrees. Hot spot up to 82 during the early part of the day should be enough. They prefer to get warmth from above, such as that from a basking light. Just remember they can tolerate months of colder than comfortable but will die if consistently kept too warm. If you error, error on the cool side. Damp substrate on the cool end and 50-80% relative humidity. Occasional morning misting to keep things damp. Keep things moist, not wet, especially under their hiding places. They are most active and easy to find early to mid spring. In high altitude/northern climates, these lizards can be inactive for up to 8 months out of the year. Whether you plan to breed or not, I recommend a brumation period of 4-5 months at 40-45 degrees for all healthy individuals that have gained weight over the summer. They can actually survive up to 1 year without food or water if kept below 60 degrees, but one or two days of high temps (above 95) can kill them.

Food: If using crickets, use small ones or pinheads. They don't seem to like having "choke" down adult crickets but if you must use them, don't leave live adult crickets in the enclosure too long. If your lizard isn't interested, or doesn't eat an adult cricket, remove it or you could find your lizard missing eyes or toes. Offer any and all soft bodied small insects when you can find them outside. They seem to prefer small ground-running spiders but will choke on mealworms, pillbugs, etc. Provide a shallow dish of water but they generally drink only from small amounts of water like what collects in a curled leaf, so regular drippings where they can see it happening, stimulates them to drink.

Northwesterns have a unique ability among alligator lizards to retain their eggs since conditions in their habitat are usually less than ideal for incubation.(they are usually 2-5 live born) If you get one in early spring and it happens to be gravid, she'll bask daily and move around to keep her eggs at ideal temperature until april or early may. If you happen to find yourself with live born babies, remove them immediately or they could get eaten.

I have no experience keeping juveniles and I don't know how long they can live in captivity. I have kept them for as long as 5 years before releasing them though. I have always acquired adults, or near-adults.

Like snakes, these lizards shed their skins in ONE PIECE, inside out. When fully grown this only happens once or twice a year. Make darn sure the skin on the toes come off. It's a frequent trouble spot that can cause lost toes.

I realize that some of these conditions are difficult to produce in an average classroom or house. In that case, try to get some kind of drop in temps at night, an isolated morning warm spot and they will probably do OK. Just make sure they are eating. Some individuals just don't adapt well to captivity. They can be picky and if conditions aren't right, they'll starve themselves. A healthy lizard will quickly try to escape if disturbed, and when captured, will feel very strong, and may bite and/or smear feces. They don't "tame". If your lizard doesn't resist at least a little, doesn't eat, or otherwise seems placid above 65 degrees, it's likely not well. If you get one that refuses to eat for more than 2 months above 60-70 degrees it's best to just release it back where you found it, or in a location where other northwesterns are found. Since they have natural lateral folds, an indication of poor weight is the backbone. It shouldn't sick out. The back should feel rounded and firm. I recommend you take clear pictures and weight of your animal every few months. If the animal is declining healthwise, comparing pictures and weights will show that. The sooner you're aware of declining health, the better.


Good luck!