Poachers get thiers

[snakeman]

This is great.I know one of these guys personally cleaned out on of my favorite spots.The funny thing is he published his own books and talks about conservation.I have personally seen him at spots with turtles in his pockets.
http://thelcn.com/2009/10/black-market-reptile-dealers-convicted/

[indigoman]

Outstanding job i personally am delighted to hear that such an effort is being taking ! The emailed comment that afew turtles was a waste of time and effort on the part of the investigator is what needs too change!

[ssssnakeluvr]

cool!! sounds like they needed the butt kickin they got!!

[snakeman]

We had this spot in jersey that we used to go to.We would find everything.Tons of snakes.But the main thing that was there was spotted turtles.Tons of them!It was easy to catch 10-15 a day.Really cool turtles.I don't personally keep turtles but all reptiles are cool to catch take pics, etc.Now you go there and you don't find anything.This is in a matter of six years.The place is wiped out.I don't think the fines were enough!

[ssssnakeluvr]

no kidding....I have a favorite garter snake den here in salt lake city.....saw no snakes there this year. a friend and I saw yellow bellied racers showing up at the den the year before. I only have one turtle, but would be fun to see them in the wild and take pics!!

[Stefan-A]

Excellent.

[drache]

I'd heard about this investigation while it was going on, and I'm glad they got some of these guys

[charles parenteau]

Tanks for the info that make my day :)

[Charis]

I thought that article left out quite a bit of info, IMHO. I did find another article on this though.
Black Market Animal Trade Busted - NYS Dept. of Environmental Conservation (http://www.dec.ny.gov/press/52868.html)

[Steven@HumboldtHerps]

It's about time to see some policing where it is necessary!

[ConcinusMan]

Glad to hear it! I think perhaps they realized how much money they could make on these herps that they were finding, and got greedy. Glad they got busted. It brings up a question though. My last pair of concinnus were WC, individually, at different locales. Technically, keeping these wild snakes in WA is illegal, since they are wildlife. Fish and game knew i had them, but allowed me to go ahead and keep them, I think, in part because I let them in without a warrant, cooperated, and agreed they should take my rubber boa. So the question is, would selling the CB concinnus offspring, say, over the internet, for a song, shipping them to various places around the world, be illegal? Would that be the same crime? I'm not sure. I only collected a pair, but produced around 170 offspring in their time with me. I mean, concinnus eventually made it into the pet trade some how. If not like I suggested, then how?

[snakeman]

Garters are a pretty common snake.I don't see Personal collecting as being bad.Even with say spotted turtles.But when you raid dens or your selling 30 adult turtles for 50 dollars a pop thats when something is wrong.

[aSnakeLovinBabe]

Garters are a pretty common snake.I don't see Personal collecting as being bad.Even with say spotted turtles.But when you raid dens or your selling 30 adult turtles for 50 dollars a pop thats when something is wrong.
/agreed!!!

[Steven@HumboldtHerps]

My last pair of concinnus were WC, individually, at different locales. Technically, keeping these wild snakes in WA is illegal, since they are wildlife. Fish and game knew i had them, but allowed me to go ahead and keep them, I think, in part because I let them in without a warrant, cooperated, and agreed they should take my rubber boa. So the question is, would selling the CB concinnus offspring, say, over the internet, for a song, shipping them to various places around the world, be illegal? Would that be the same crime? I'm not sure. I only collected a pair, but produced around 170 offspring in their time with me. I mean, concinnus eventually made it into the pet trade some how. If not like I suggested, then how?

If it is illegal to possess native snakes (in this case WA), then I am pretty sure it would be illegal to export them out of state. Here in CA we have pretty stiff rules (but at least you can collect some); you are only allowed to possess the bag limit stated in the CA Dept Fish and Game Freshwater Guide; most amphibians are limited to 4, most lizards and snakes are limited at 2 with a few exceptions - you can only have 1 zonata (So Cal populations are protected); you can have 4 CA Kings and 4 Gophers, but you need a breeding permit to sell them (other than rosys which may have new restrictions, kings and gophers are the only snakes you are allowed to sell or export; legally, every one of these snakes sold in CA pet shops should come with an inventory number, but it's rarely enforced). You are only allowed 2 specimens of each species of garter (this ct. includes ssp.)... I could ramble on, but you can see for yourself (links below).
As for how certain snakes got into the trade, well, I am pretty sure their ancestors came from wild stock at some point in time. Whether or not it was done legally, that's the question. I suspect both.

Some of us have strong ethics where conservation is concerned and adhere to the rules, some say "a few extra won't hurt!", and then there's the unfortunate "Bag 'em all! We'll make a bundle!" I try to stick to the law because: 1. If I get caught over the limit, those animals may face destruction; 2. I run a herp website that boasts conservation ethics, and I would like my actions to reflect my words; and 3. Even though some of the laws or limits may seem strange, at least they are there with good intent (Oh, yeah! And fine collections.. Ka-ching! but that doesn't support what I'm getting at...)

Anyways, yeah, uh... Check out some of the red tape we got in CA (bag limits and special permits).

Hunting and Sport Fishing Regulations (http://www.dfg.ca.gov/regulations/)

Miscellaneous Licenses and Permits, fee schedule (http://www.dfg.ca.gov/licensing/specialpermits/specialpermitsdescrip.html)

Oh, also, out of state shipments, if done illegally, might incur bigger fines than simply harboring a few animals illegally.

May all be mindful in these matters.

[ConcinusMan]

Nice. I only wish it was that easy to find cut-and-dry specific rules for WA state. It's tough. I challenge anyone to find such specific rules for WA. Bottom line is, they dig up the very obscure laws and enforce them, when it suits their purpose. They chose not to enforce the "no wildlife as pets" rule because I had concinnus, an extremely common garter snake. But then again, there was no evidence that I was breeding and/or selling the offspring, because at the time, I had no neonates, and I have never sold any that I did produce. They were all released into the area where I found the female. They didn't know that, they just new I had a few garter snakes and they were ok with that, even though it is against written law.

You're lucky. When I lived in San Diego, county rules were much more stiff than state rules. No herps native to the county, period. As a pet, or otherwise. I had a CB king at the time, and had moved to San Diego. I fought it and was able to keep him because I proved he was CB and legally purchased in another state. The county backed off and let me have her under state rules. Also, no collecting, (no such thing as a bag limit) at all in that county. I've tried numerous times to get rules/laws for WA so I could find out exactly what is allowed and what isn't. They really aren't very forthcoming. They wait for a complaint and then enforce the laws as they see fit. They don't want me to know the laws. Seriously.

When I say "as they see fit" I mean, they let me keep a native wild snake, concinnus., while at the same time, they confiscated my rubber boa. (I agree with that. They are considered threatened, whereas the garter is not) I got away with raising a squirrel and had it as a pet, because technically, it wasn't native. It was an eastern grey squirrel. Very common wildlife around here, but not native.

Here in WA, I got gray tape. Don't really know what the laws are, and they can choose when, and if to enforce any of them, at any time. It's confusing as hello.

[confused]

Well, according to the language in the bill, yo uguys seem to have banned the ownership of all snakes.

[confused]

http://apps.leg.wa.gov/documents/billdocs/2007-08/Pdf/Bills/House%20Passed%20Legislature/1418.PL.pdf

[ConcinusMan]

That's just a bill, it is only a bill, and it's waiting there on...

Didn't bother to read it. There's still snakes in the pet stores. Corn morphs, milks, kings, ball pythons, etc. Believe me, if we had been banned from owning all snakes, I would have heard about it. I believe it only pertains to "potentially dangerous" animals. I don't think it's coincidence that our local pet stores no longer carry anacondas, Burmese pythons, or bird eating giant tarantulas. They used to. Not long ago. Kids were getting eaten, adults getting seriously bit, etc.

[justme]

I have a female T. Apophysis and am happy not to see them commonly offered in pet stores as most are wild caught and sickly. Bird eating tarantulas (Theraphosa Blondi) are intimidating due to their size but are fairly harmless and more prone to flicking urticating hairs than biting. Old world species are the ones to worry about as their venom is much more potent. ;-) And the severity of a possible allergic reaction to the venom varies with each individual. Personally, I am much more scared of centipedes than being a snack for a giant anaconda! Hehe... ;-)

[ConcinusMan]

About the box turtles: makes me wonder where ours come from. Twice I have found box turtles wandering our streets. I found one crossing my own street. Another time, my sister in law found one living in a burrow under a grape vine in her back yard. Just east of my location numerous individuals can be found near a lake. They're neat, and even knowing they aren't native, I released the one I found after keeping him for 6 months. They seem to do just fine here, in the wild.

[Steven@HumboldtHerps]

You're lucky. When I lived in San Diego, county rules were much more stiff than state rules. No herps native to the county, period. As a pet, or otherwise. I had a CB king at the time, and had moved to San Diego. I fought it and was able to keep him because I proved he was CB and legally purchased in another state. The county backed off and let me have her under state rules. Also, no collecting, (no such thing as a bag limit) at all in that county. I've tried numerous times to get rules/laws for WA so I could find out exactly what is allowed and what isn't. They really aren't very forthcoming. They wait for a complaint and then enforce the laws as they see fit. They don't want me to know the laws. Seriously.

Really! Wow! I didn't know this about San Diego County at all! I have just been going by state rules. Uhh....... Must investigate!

[Steven@HumboldtHerps]

I can't find any regulations for San Diego County. I know zonatas and SoCal garters are off limits, but all? Are you sure?

[ConcinusMan]

Yeah. I'm sure. At least I was pretty darn sure when the law came calling when I lived in San Diego. The county rules are much more strict than state. County: no native herps. Period. And they're a-holes about it too. I had to go to court and prove my CA king was acquired out of state, in WA, legally, and that it was CB. (That didn't keep me from keeping WC kings and gophers after I was off the radar though)

But yeah, zonatas are off limits for obvious reasons. Many native CA garters are in peril. the only one that can be found in SD county is checkered garters. Again, very limited and imperiled east county population. Pet stores there had eastern ribbon snakes though!. I know. not the same.

San Diego wildlife guys were very clear and forthcoming with the laws. Since I had just moved to san diego, I was naive. they made darn sure I understood. NO native herps. I explained that the kingsnake I had was purchased CB in WA state and that I was only in SD temporarily. (4 years. it's a navy thing). They weren't very sympathetic. I think it's 'cause they didn't believe me, since kings just like mine could be found right outside my door, in the wild. Anyway, like I said, I had to go to court. After that, I was allowed ONE black and white banded CA king, legally. It didn't matter to them, that CA kings were as common as garters are in WA.

No collecting at all was allowed without a special educational/whatever permit. This is the home of the famous San Diego zoo, ya know. Also, no keeping native herps without a permit, no matter where they came from. I had to fight for my permit to keep ONE CA king. Private citizens generally don't get a permit. In reality, I learned from the experience and ended up keeping numerous wild-caught kings, gophers, and even a rosey boa. I just had to be extra careful so that nobody knew! I always returned my WC snakes to the wild eventually. Funny though. The San Diego Zoo, and the law, didn't mind at all when my brother produced a two headed kingsnake, WC in San Diego, got pictures in the newspaper, and even sold the snake to the zoo.

Anyway... flash forward. Now I'm back in WA, and for most of the years since I've been back, I had that one encounter with the law. they let me keep my garters in spite of it technically being against the law. Took my rubber boa, but that is understandable. WA wildlife law enforcement were not near as forthcoming, and it's very difficult to find the right laws if you look it up on your own. Their focus is on game animals and fish.

[Thamnophis marcianus]

well just happy that there caught i hope they take those web site off the net there still you and running

[aSnakeLovinBabe]

well just happy that there caught i hope they take those web site off the net there still you and running

Sorry, but i highly disagree. I happen to be the administrator and second in command of that website. Yes, the owner did make some really bad mistakes. I knew something bad was going on with him, but he never really got into it. But now I know why he's changed quite a bit and also why he's stopped dealing turtles and anything other than turtle food at the shows. He is and has been a close friend of mine for years and a very good person at heart. Has a lot of great values and is a well educated person. Never herped with him, actually never done anything with him outside of traveling to shows, including daytona. Obviously, he broke the law and did a lot of things he should not have been doing. And for that, I cannot defend him! But I believe he has learned his lesson and will move forward from this and be a better person than previously. Trust me, I would not attempt to backup just anyone who broke the law, and I would not remain friends with someone whom I believed to be a scumbag or a lawbreaker. But our website is not going anywhere, we are a large community of wonderful people. That community should not; will not be lost because of one person's actions.

[ConcinusMan]

Very well stated. ^^^