Bite reaction

[guidofatherof5]

I've just had a strange(for me) reaction to a radix bite. I've been bitten so many times I can't remember. I would guess over a hundred times. Up until tonight I have had no unusual reactions at the bite locations. Most of my bites have taken place on the hands. Usually a small amount of blood is drawn but that it. The next day you can'e even tell where the bite was.
Tonight(moments ago) I was giving out some snack pinkies to one of my female groups. In that group I have a snake named "Lucky look-a-like" I had scooped up some pinkies out of a warming bucket and my hand still smelled like them and she grabbed me. As in the past she let go after a few seconds. I looked at the bite location and only saw pin point blood. A few moments later I got a terrible itch at that locaton and the bite location has some swelling. This snake has bitten me before and I've never had a reation like this. It's now been about ten minutes since the bite and I am still aware of the itching but the swelling is almost gone. The bites are usually on my fingers but this one was between two fingers by the knuckles.
I'm not sure what to think about this occurance.

[confused]

Some kind of odd histamine release. Doesn't have to be an allergy to have it happen, it just can happen from an inury.

Mast cell - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mast_cells)

However, if you see further rash in the future, allergy or an underlying disorder may be at fault.

/not a doctor, just have WAY too much exposure to science and medicine.

[guidofatherof5]

It has been about 8 hours since the bite and I'm still kicking:D I can't even see where the bite was. No swelling , no redness, nothing.
I'll have to see how I react to future bites. That shouldn't take too long. Todays a feed day.

[jere000]

Also the itching could be from a tooth coming out.

[guidofatherof5]

Also the itching could be from a tooth coming out.


No teeth that I know of. It wasn't a hard, locked on bite.
Good thought.

[aSnakeLovinBabe]

Every time my male black rat snake bites me that happens. Except the spot itches for at least a day. And it swells too. It's only that particular snake though!!!

[drache]

I get that sometimes - haven't paid particular attention to the circumstances, since I don't get bitten very often, but I think of it as just a skin irritation, much less severe than mosquito bites or stinging nettles
it may just be the location of the bite
glad you're still kicking
the worst reaction I've ever had to an animal bite was when I was bit by a very stressed cat, who punctured my thumb in several places, including two straight through the thumbnail; not only did that thumb swell to outlandishly enormous proportions, but my entire body turned the colour of borscht and was itching ferociously - very interesting experience

[ConcinusMan]

I've had that happen before on occasion. From garters, pacific gophers and ca king bites. probably a reaction to their saliva, but it was definitely a histamine response. I just figured that's what it was since it's the mosquitoes saliva that causes the itch/swelling when they bite.

[guidofatherof5]

It just came as a surprise, since it's never happened before. I've been bit twice this evening during feeding time and had no reaction at all.
Very interesting, very interesting indeed.:D

[Charis]

I think I read somewhere that the skin between your fingers is more sensitive to those kind of reactions than the rest of your hand. Something to do with the thinness of the skin there, I think. I'll have to try to remember where I read that at.

[Steven@HumboldtHerps]

It might just be a reaction to injury, but most Thamnophis fans should know that garters are known to possess a very mildly toxic saliva, which may be used to slow down their prey. Since there is no delivery system, this saliva is usually just "gummed" into the bite. Most people don't have a reaction, but some people may be sensitive. As often is the case with allergic reactions, many who aren't allergic can become so later on...

Late this summer I had a hydrophilus chew on my hand for over a minute! The wound itched like mad for about 20 minutes before dissipating.

[Stefan-A]

It might just be a reaction to injury, but most Thamnophis fans should know that garters are known to possess a very mildly toxic saliva, which may be used to slow down their prey. Since there is no delivery system, this saliva is usually just "gummed" into the bite. Most people don't have a reaction, but some people may be sensitive. As often is the case with allergic reactions, many who aren't allergic can become so later on...

Late this summer I had a hydrophilus chew on my hand for over a minute! The wound itched like mad for about 20 minutes before dissipating.
Strictly speaking, it's not the saliva that's toxic, but the secretions from the Duvernoy's gland.

[CRIKEY!]

It might just be a reaction to injury, but most Thamnophis fans should know that garters are known to possess a very mildly toxic saliva, which may be used to slow down their prey. Since there is no delivery system, this saliva is usually just "gummed" into the bite. Most people don't have a reaction, but some people may be sensitive. As often is the case with allergic reactions, many who aren't allergic can become so later on...

Late this summer I had a hydrophilus chew on my hand for over a minute! The wound itched like mad for about 20 minutes before dissipating.
THAT PICTURE IS AWESOME!

guidofatherof5-
How's your hand today? Hope it's feeling better. :D

[guidofatherof5]

guidofatherof5-
How's your hand today? Hope it's feeling better. :D

It's like it never happened.

[Steven@HumboldtHerps]

Strictly speaking, it's not the saliva that's toxic, but the secretions from the Duvernoy's gland.

Thanks for the clarification Stefan. Of course!

[Steven@HumboldtHerps]

Seems there's a little dispute as to what the secretions should be called. Bryan Fry thinks Duvernoy's gland should be considered a "primitive" venom gland.

Po-tay-toes or Po-tah-toes? Pick one. :)

My Dipsadines (tentative placement), I presume, must all have active Duvernoy's glands. My Contia, my Diadophis, and my Hypsiglena are all "gummers"... Makes me wonder about my other colubrids... I've even had a corn snake bite itch for a while (but that bite had embedded teeth!).

[Stefan-A]

Seems there's a little dispute as to what the secretions should be called. Bryan Fry thinks Duvernoy's gland should be considered a "primitive" venom gland.

Po-tay-toes or Po-tah-toes? Pick one. :)

My Dipsadines (tentative placement), I presume, must all have active Duvernoy's glands. My Contia, my Diadophis, and my Hypsiglena are all "gummers"... Makes me wonder about my other colubrids... I've even had a corn snake bite itch for a while (but that bite had embedded teeth!).
There is indeed a bit of a dispute, a minor one, but it's really just semantics. Fry's and Wüster's work has been pretty groundbreaking and at the moment, they seem to have the best insight.

[DIRK]

Hi

my Thamnophis marcianus marcianus bite me a few weeks ago.. The snake chews nearly a minute on my finger...

Look at the pictures

This picture was made two days later

http://www.siteupload.de/t989000-P1070719JPG.JPG

[Mike Spencer]

I've had countless garter bites and I too have had a few get nice and swollen and itchy. It's not big deal though. Especially since I have been envenomated by a couple rearfanged colubrids (hognose and false water cobra).

[ConcinusMan]

I was once curious about ringnecks (Diadophis punctatus) toxicity too. During a particularly wet year (spring and early summer) in San Diego, they could be found in great numbers under leaves and other natural debris, on lightly forested hillsides. None of them exceeded 6 inches in length and were slow to bite. However, if severely provoked (asking to get bit) they would grab ahold and chew. I purposely allowed them to break the skin if they could. Twice I achieved that. Broken skin, and saliva on and in the wound. Still, no reaction at all and yet I keep hearing about ringnecks having enlarged rear teeth and mildly toxic saliva. Never had a reaction to anything but a garter, gopher, or king. All were defensive bites, all were wild-caught.

EDIT: with the exception of a few enormous Southern alligator lizards. they can be viscous. bites are always painful due to their vice grip, but sometimes, I'd get a histamine reaction from them too.

[Mike Spencer]

I was once curious about ringnecks (Diadophis punctatus) toxicity too. During a particularly wet year (spring and early summer) in San Diego, they could be found in great numbers under leaves and other natural debris, on lightly forested hillsides. None of them exceeded 6 inches in length and were slow to bite. However, if severely provoked (asking to get bit) they would grab ahold and chew. I purposely allowed them to break the skin if they could. Twice I achieved that. Broken skin, and saliva on and in the wound. Still, no reaction at all and yet I keep hearing about ringnecks having enlarged rear teeth and mildly toxic saliva. Never had a reaction to anything but a garter, gopher, or king. All were defensive bites, all were wild-caught.

EDIT: with the exception of a few enormous Southern alligator lizards. they can be viscous. bites are always painful due to their vice grip, but sometimes, I'd get a histamine reaction from them too.

I've been wondering about Diadophis venom for a while too. I caught over 50 this spring up to 16 inches or so and one HUGE adult that measured 26 inches (the largest recorded D. p. amibilis I believe is 30 inches) that I tried persistently to get it to bite. It wouldn't and I didn't want to keep that old of a snake in case I stressed it out or anything, but I did let a 12 inch female chew on the spot between my thumb and index finger for a few, but even that snake, in that spot, was too small to get its rear 'fangs' into my hand.

[ConcinusMan]

Yeah, well that's not really necessary if it can break the skin and get saliva in there, that's all that really matters since those aren't real fangs. I did manage that, but no reaction. These were the San Diego variety, ssp similis. They don't really get any larger than perhaps 12 inches (most are under 8 inches) and are definitely a bit different than those found in other parts of CA or the Pacific Northwest. Could be some populations are more toxic than others(?)

[drache]

Could be some populations are more toxic than others(?)
that would be my assumption
I have even found differences in mosquitoes from different canyons in a place in So. Cal. I used to live at, so my guess is that if there is toxicity, there will be variation

[Steven@HumboldtHerps]

I am positive that venoms can vary from location to location.

In SoCal there are isolated populations of Southern Pacific Rattlesnakes whose venom evolution is off the chart. Some groups have more myotoxins and neurotoxins than others. Arizona's rattler populations are also suspect. Both CA and AZ have had cases where Crofab (anti-venin) almost wasn't enough to combat the new strains.

Here in the Northwest we also have varied populations of newts and common garters that have unique co-evolutionary toxins and immunities. Interestingly, in some spots common garters have a low immunity to the toxic effects of eating newts; concurrently these newts tend to be less toxic (no need to produce more toxins if the snakes can't deal with it in the first place). In some areas however, garters have evolved a high level of immunity and do survive eating newts; concurrently these newts are usually highly toxic. It's an arms race, and there are trade-offs. Newts that produce more defensive toxins produce fewer eggs. Garters that have a high immunity move slower than those with low immunity. So, if you're a resistant garter who can supplement your diet with newts, you have to sacrifice speed (probably because newts toxin is a type of neurotoxin similar to that of the puffer fish) to do so, thus the snake with a tummy full of newts is less likely to evade a hungry heron!

[confused]

That might explain the slightly brain damaged garter I found. Lots of newts around, like hundreds, and was wondering what was in the poop where I found her, was not earthworms or frogs, and she didn't eat slugs......

[guidofatherof5]

This morning I went down to the snake room to get their lights on and check on everyone.
I opened up the adult T.s.parietalis (Red Sided garter) enclosure and I was greeted by the big girls as they wanted some breakfast. After a few moment they realized it was just a social call and settled down. It was then I felt a bite on the under-side of my forearm.
When I looked I saw a full mouth bite going on. She was determined to eat at least part of my arm. She tugged, pulled and chewed for about 30 seconds then released.
All I could do was laugh at her because she barely broke the skin and at the time I didn't even see any bleeding.
I went about my business and a few moments later noticed a nice bite pattern of blood. I wiped it off with a paper towel and forgot about it.
5 minutes later I felt and intense itching and saw that the bite site had swollen up.
This photo was taken 20 minutes after the incident and clearly shows the reaction to the bite. It's now 50 minutes after the bite and the swelling has blended into a larger area but the itching is gone.
I'm guessing this is probably a case of envenomation. Nice going duvernoy's gland :D
Duvernoy's gland - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duvernoy%27s_gland)
http://www.thamnophis.com/forum/general-talk/5277-duvernoy-gland.html
Thoughts please.
http://www.thamnophis.com/thamphotos/data//500/medium/bite6.jpg

[kerensa]

well I think you're correct that you're having a reaction to the bite. The girls obviously want their breakfast now...

[mikem]

I know that working with venomous snakes can lead to allergies from exposure to their venom (on food, bedding, cages, tools, etc.).

[guidofatherof5]

Almost 2 hours since the bite and the swelling and much of the redness is gone.

[ProXimuS]

I wonder if it can be a developing allergy? I work with dogs, and have never had any allergies towards them. After working there for a few years, I started having skin (redness and itching) reactions to certain types of hair(Shar peis specifically, but also some Boxers, Great Danes, those types of hair...)

You can't be allergic to snakes though, Steve. Where will all the needy Raxixes go:p

[d_virginiana]

Huh. I've always had pretty bad reactions to both water and garter snake bites. They don't even have to draw blood to make my skin swell and itch, just break the skin a little.

It would suck if you were developing an allergy! I wonder if allergies acquired through being exposed to something a lot are any worse than ones you naturally have?

[Didymus20X6]

Steve allergic to snakes? Will he have to relinquish his vast radix collection? What will he do? WHAT WILL HE DO?

</cheesy organ music>

[guidofatherof5]

Steve allergic to snakes? Will he have to relinquish his vast radix collection? What will he do? WHAT WILL HE DO?

</cheesy organ music>

"They may take our freedom but they'll never take my radixes":D

[kerensa]

I found a couple of the bits I collected itched... hope it doesn't go beyond that ever.

[EasternGirl]

I can remember us having a discussion on here before about the gland and the mild venom produced...we were talking about how garters could be referred to as "warms" technically. We discussed how some people seem to react to bites and some don't. I would think that the severity and the location of the bite would matter and probably the state of the person's immune system at the time of the bite. Sometimes just holding my garters will make my arms itch for some reason...and other times it doesn't bother me at all. I have pretty severe allergies though. When Sadie bit me yesterday...she didn't even break the skin...but one bite did bruise me and hurt pretty bad and the area itched for a while after.

[Selkielass]

Beekepers face envenomation every time they visit the yard. Most choose to dress lightly get stung at least once a week, and nearly all soon develop some degree of immuneiity. The key is regular and exposure to normal exposure amounts.

[kimbosaur]

Could it be that you were possibly reacting to something else in the mouth? Like some sort of bacteria that might not always be there? I ask because I have sensitive skin when it comes to germs and sometimes I will react differently to animals (saliva especially) depending on where they've been, what they've eaten/sniffed, or if they are sick themselves.

[guidofatherof5]

Could it be that you were possibly reacting to something else in the mouth? Like some sort of bacteria that might not always be there? I ask because I have sensitive skin when it comes to germs and sometimes I will react differently to animals (saliva especially) depending on where they've been, what they've eaten/sniffed, or if they are sick themselves.

A very good point to bring up Kimberly and one I have considered.
At this point it's all a guessing game as to what really happened.;)

[EasternGirl]

That is a good point.

[guidofatherof5]

This was 24 hours later.

http://www.thamnophis.com/thamphotos/data//500/medium/bite41.jpg

[ProXimuS]

Looks considerably better. Glad it wasn't a long lasting thing!