Hydrophilus yesterday, infernalis today.

[Mike Spencer]

I haven't been having too much luck lately, mostly due to not getting out much, but I did get out yesterday afternoon and this morning for a few minutes.

Yesterday afternoon I took a quick trip down to the river to see if anything was basking before it started to cool off.
After just a few minutes, I was rewarded with this guy.

Thamnophis atratus hydrophilus - Oregon gartersnake
http://i81.photobucket.com/albums/j201/MikeMikeUxWxC/hydrophilus25.jpg

http://i81.photobucket.com/albums/j201/MikeMikeUxWxC/DSC_0010.jpg

I was happy with it. He was only the second Oregon I have seen this year. They seem to have been declining in population at this locale over the past few seasons.



This morning I couldn't sleep so I took a walk down to a local vineyard pond to see what, if anything, was moving, and I was able to find this girl. One of my favorite snakes, and the garter I have found the most of this year.

Thamnophis sirtalis infernalis - California redsided gartersnake

http://i81.photobucket.com/albums/j201/MikeMikeUxWxC/DSC_0005.jpg

http://i81.photobucket.com/albums/j201/MikeMikeUxWxC/DSC_0008.jpg

[guidofatherof5]

Very beautiful snakes. Looks like it was worth the trips.

[GarterGeek]

Both are such beautiful snakes! They both look really healthy too. :) Nice finds.

[aSnakeLovinBabe]

what an adorable pair of little faces! that atratus is sharp!

[mustang]

awww love the red sided...the oregon looks cool too

[Mike Spencer]

Thanks guys.
Steve, even if I don't find anything, it's always worth the trip.

[drache]

very nice finds

[CRIKEY!]

Great finds Mike! They were very photogenic, did you have to put them in a pose? :D

[gregmonsta]

Great shots :D

[jitami]

Love them both. Nice finds :)

[charles parenteau]

Very nice find !!both snake are beautiful,very good pictures.

[aSnakeLovinBabe]

is there any chance that the first snake pictured could be a thamnophis elegans elegans, and not atratus?

[sirtalis01]

they are beautiful, they pictures are great....

[ssssnakeluvr]

is there any chance that the first snake pictured could be a thamnophis elegans elegans, and not atratus?
I am thinking the same thing....since I have a trio of elegans....look exactly like that

[Mike Spencer]

Thanks everyone.
Although it doesn't look typically atratus, it is from a coastal river in Mendocino County, quite a ways west of T. e. elegans range.
The only other thing it can be from this area is T. e. terrestris, though I've never seen them close to this locale, as it's a little far inland I believe.
I did hold onto it though, to get better pics and whatnot, so I'll do a full scale count and everything.

Crikey, I did pose it for the pics. It's pretty hard to get a garter to naturally sit still in a photogenic pose. Haha

[jitami]

That's pretty far out of elegans range. My first (relatively inexperienced!) impression when I looked at it yesterday is that it's not clean and clear enough, especially through the head/labial area to be elegans. Also, it has a hint of, but is basically lacking the labial stripes that many elegans have. The dorsal stripe doesn't seem wide enough, either. This is all just based on first impressions, though. When looking at cal herps and trying to differenciate between the two, other than range maps, looks like the chin shields may be the key. Elegans front and rear will be equal in length, Hyrdophilus rear will be longer than the front pair.

Thanks for a bit of education this morning, though. It has been interesting thinking, "no, I don't think so?" and trying to back up my first impression. I wouldn't say that I've really suceeded in doing that, but time spent staring at garter snakes is always worthwhile :)

[Mike Spencer]

That's pretty far out of elegans range. My first (relatively inexperienced!) impression when I looked at it yesterday is that it's not clean and clear enough, especially through the head/labial area to be elegans. Also, it has a hint of, but is basically lacking the labial stripes that many elegans have. The dorsal stripe doesn't seem wide enough, either. This is all just based on first impressions, though. When looking at cal herps and trying to differenciate between the two, other than range maps, looks like the chin shields may be the key. Elegans front and rear will be equal in length, Hyrdophilus rear will be longer than the front pair.

Thanks for a bit of education this morning, though. It has been interesting thinking, "no, I don't think so?" and trying to back up my first impression. I wouldn't say that I've really suceeded in doing that, but time spent staring at garter snakes is always worthwhile :)

Yeah. Chin shields, scale counts, etc. all say it's atratus, and I've been finding/IDing garters for years. I have no doubts. I've lived in and have been herping Northern CA my whole life, so I know which Thamnophis are where and everything. Haha.

Glad you were able to get some education out of it. It's fun sometimes having to force yourself around a gut feeling or something and then dig around to find out what it really is, even if it does end up being what you think it was all along.

[Steven@HumboldtHerps]

Hello Mike,

I am going to have to go with aSnakeLovinBabe (what's your real name?) and Don's first assumption that it may be a Mountain Garter. In fact, I am pretty confident that it is without looking at the chin shields. First, the head shape and supralabials scream T. e. elegans to me. The colors are typically T. e. elegans. T. a. hydrophilus usually (not always) has a brighter yellow about the throat, and the head is a bit more elongated. This guy's head is a bit more snub-nosed. Also, although I don't have a good view of the ventrals, I fail to see any salmon coloration creeping up the sides; hydrophilus usually will always have a salmon belly, especially near the caudal region.

Please be careful not to rely soley on the ranges in guidebooks. Californiaherps does a pretty good job, especially with the dot locality maps, but many may be out of date. I have found both Audubon and Stebbins 2003 to be inaccurate as well in the case of some species and ssp. I am currently trying to prove and redraw T. ordinoides' southern range here in Humboldt.

I acknowledge your assumption, especially if you look at the southern populations of hydrophilus. The common southern pattern for hydrophilus (and I believe this will match Mendocino and Southern Trinity Co. accounts) is a yellow stripe on a black background, which you also commonly find on T. e. elegans.

As you venture north along hydrophilus' range (Trinity Alps/Salmon River area - SW Siskiyou Co.), you see a blending of 2 phases: striping, spotting, or both. Even further north (i.e.: Smith River in Del Norte County or the Chetco in SW OR) spots or checkers are most common (a trait which I believe enhances their camouflage when swimming in serpentine rock rivers). Dull, gray dimly striped variants may be found throughout most of hydrophilus' range. Dull, spotted ones may also be found further north.

As for this snake, which I believe is indeed an elegans, I should remind everyone (Stefan originally gave me the link) that the latest DNA studies on the elegans complex (Brownikowsi and Arnold) revealed a total of three subspecies clades within the species' entire known range. One clade proved to be entirely vagrans; the largest clade was composed of T. e. elegans and snakes which were originally thought to be vagrans and terrestris by characteristics alone. This larger clade, in fact, absorbed every terristris tested except one. This one lonely specimen, and only representaitive of the third clade, was from Humboldt County, and it is an anomaly I would like to research myself. The research paper concluded with an alluding to the idea that terrestris be nullified as a ssp. namesake, but there was no further mention of the Humboldt specimen. Gotta test more than one snake! Interestingly, the larger group's findings revealed that there have been various migrations within the group, ones that crossed Great Basin barriers at some point in time. So, some of the subspecies ranges need to be entirely rewritten. Some of the "wanderers" out there are actually "mountains"; and now all of the "coasts", but one are "mountains" as well. Oh, the lumping and splitting of taxonomic groups - always a headache!

This may also explain why your "mountain" was so far west. Assuming that terrestris still was a viable ssp. for your area, its still a ssp. and can freely intergrade with the mountain clade. At some point the geographical subtleties will mix to produce a muddling of the typical traits - to resemble one ssp. or the other, or perhaps neither! I am pretty sure that at this point you are basically dealing with polygenic traits similar to the color phases you might find in a Miami or an Okeetee corn snake; mix 'em and ya get a mutt or a variations of either of the parents.

We may know of simple recessive traits and others within the captive trade of garters, but garter genetics over-all has been baffling us for decades, and who knows what else random, wild gene pools are capable of...?! The facts are only facts until nature changes the rules, or genes anyway... I believe there's all kinds of rules being broken in my neck of the woods. Humboldt County has 4 species of garters (elegans, sirtalis, atratus and ordinoides) including additional ssp. (elegans/terrestris and infernalis/fitchi). I still suspect there may be some cross-overs in this region; this place may just be an intergrade/hybrid hell! (Heaven for me!)

Great infernalis pic, by the way!

Steve

[Steven@HumboldtHerps]

Oh, and I forgot to mention, that for here in Humboldt and Del Norte County - I no longer believe that labial scale and scale row counts should be used as a definitive means of identifying species. I have experienced so much variation amidst at least 3 of the species, I am pretty much convinced they are too unstable a trait to use in classification. I am only saying this for my area; this may not apply to other regions! T. a. hydrophilus is the only garter I have found to be pretty stable in its gestalt.

Should I also mention that there was a study done which revealed the possibility that elegans and atratus share a more recent common ancestor closely linked to ordinoides? That, in itself, might explain your elegans/atratus! It wouldn't be the first time 2 different snake species have hybridized. The more I look at Thamnophis, the more I wonder, what the hell is a species these days anyways.. just a convenient grouping????

[Stefan-A]

, what the hell is a species these days anyways.. just a convenient grouping????
Yes. That's exactly what it is. It worked fine when they were still considered immutable.

[jitami]

Good stuff as usual, Steve!

[Mike Spencer]

Oh, and I forgot to mention, that for here in Humboldt and Del Norte County - I no longer believe that labial scale and scale row counts should be used as a definitive means of identifying species. I have experienced so much variation amidst at least 3 of the species, I am pretty much convinced they are too unstable a trait to use in classification. I am only saying this for my area; this may not apply to other regions! T. a. hydrophilus is the only garter I have found to be pretty stable in its gestalt.

Should I also mention that there was a study done which revealed the possibility that elegans and atratus share a more recent common ancestor closely linked to ordinoides? That, in itself, might explain your elegans/atratus! It wouldn't be the first time 2 different snake species have hybridized. The more I look at Thamnophis, the more I wonder, what the hell is a species these days anyways.. just a convenient grouping????


The ONLY way it could be elegans is if it is terrestris. I found it maybe 5 miles from the coast in Mendocino Co, wayyy west of any known range of elegans elegans. Plus I've caught countless of both species in my life and in person it resembles atratus from the area much more than any elegans I've found in the vicinity.
I try not to rely on scale counts either because here I too have found a variance between different populations. I'm not ruling out that it's not an atratus hydrophilus x elegans terrestris hybrid though. That could be plausible, however, it does have atratus chinshields.

[Stefan-A]

The ONLY way it could be elegans is if it is terrestris. I found it maybe 5 miles from the coast in Mendocino Co, wayyy west of any known range of elegans elegans.
I'm afraid terrestris is no more. It's part of elegans elegans at the moment.

[Mike Spencer]

Hmm. Last I heard they were still working on the terrestris/elegans but I haven't read anything about it being official yet.

[aSnakeLovinBabe]

I'm afraid terrestris is no more. It's part of elegans elegans at the moment.

I am still going to make the distinction! :D

[Mike Spencer]

I am still going to make the distinction! :D


Same. Until I find a red Mountain garter, to me Mountains will be Mountains, Coasts will be Coasts, elegans will be elegans, and terrestris will be terrestris. I can't find anything that's even published the merge yet.

[Steven@HumboldtHerps]

Many of the newer taxonomic revisions (including elegans/terrestris) won't be found in any herp books as far as I know of yet. The research, however, has been published. This stuff is ongoing, and is often revealed in increments as the research continues. It takes a while for the gathered publications (check the science journals) to make it into a sellable book either as an ingredient or as the whole topic.

I honestly can't speak for Mendocino specimens; I'd actually like to check out the garter variation there.

Despite the taxonomic revisions, whether or not a Coast is now a Mountain doesn't really matter; I still respect the characteristics of the line(s). Note however, terrestris in my neck of the woods (at least from Garberville to Crescent City) are highly variable: typical coastal phase complete with the random red flecking (all over the place), "blue-gray" phase (Mad River), tan and brown phase (Mad River to Redwood Creek), dull brown phase (Bald Hills, RNSP), black "mountain" phase (Blue Lake, Kneeland , Lower Van Duzen River). The range maps do indeed show elegans elegans further inland . In fact, I have been calling some of my western black specimens Mountains, when they are probably just dark Coasts.

Perhaps the most important question is "In what habitat did you find this snake?" Please understand, I'm not doubting your personal experience with the locals; I am fascinated. If you like, check out my sightings listings at:

Thamnophis (http://www.humboldtherps.com/thamnophis.html)

[Mike Spencer]

I've found lots of 'coasts' (I might as well use quotes now if I'm gonna have to get used to the new taxon. haha) in San Mateo, Marin, Sonoma, Mendocino, and southern Humboldt Counties, so I definitely know how variable they are. There's a San Mateo Co. population that is almost solid red with a brown head. There's a Mendocino County spot I find them where most are brown with just random red speckling. There's a different spot in Mendocino Co. (near Gualala) where they are commonly fairly red as well. As far as I'm concerned, most of the Garter complex in CA is screwed up right now.

I do love how variable Northwesterns are. I've caught them in Del Norte Co. as well as in random counties up through Oregon, close to 100 this summer in Multnomah County, Oregon, some in Washington, and some in Vancouver, British Columbia. I've found brown ones, tan ones, really dark one, patternless, stripeless, single striped, triple striped, yellow striped, bright red striped, orange striped, blue striped, a melanistic population, etc. etc.

I have a spot here in Ukiah for infernalis where almost every one I find has no blue whatsoever, but I took a friend there last week so he could find his first infernalis and the one he found was really high blue.
I've found the super high blues in Marin County as well.

I've love the blue phase elegans elegans from Mt. St. Helena in Napa County too.

I think what attracts me to garters so much IS how variable they can be, and how you can find them with many different appearences in such small areas.

[ssssnakeluvr]

I love the variability in ordinoides...I have a melanistic male....am hoping to get a large group of them next spring

[Steven@HumboldtHerps]

I currently do not have any ordinoides but have access to Del Norte County, which has an incredible variety of morphs. My favorites are the red-morphs that are almost burgundy.

[ConcinusMan]

What an absolutely gorgeous example of infernalis! OMG I gotta get at least one that looks like that. Beautiful!

IMHO ordinoides has been way under appreciated for too long. We know better though. Some of them are just quite stunning. I too used to have melanistic ordinoides, and I know where they can still be found. I don't think I've ever ran across the burgandy though. Almost blue, or steel blue, yes. Other interesting speckled combo's resulting in the impression of a cool color, yes, but not burgandy/purple. I'll sure be on the look out next spring though!