anyone working with Thamnophis gigas

[duh duh duh]

In my jurisdiction we are limited with what types of Thamnophis we can import and keep. Sirtalis are out (unfortunately), amongst others.

In any event, looking at some of the other species, I am intrigued by the Giants. Is anyone currently working with these guys? I think it would be fascinating to set up a large enclosure with a full 10-30 gallon fish aquarium inside and watch these big guys hunt.

Anyone working with them? Any breeding projects? Any cool morphs or results from breeding programs?

[Stefan-A]

It's unlikely.

[aSnakeLovinBabe]

I have never heard of anyone keeping gigas. Mainly because they are illegal to possess in the united states. So collecting them for any reason, even to send to another country would be illegal. All they really are is oversized, plain brown garter snakes. No intruiging colors or anything. If you'd like a big thamnophis, get yourself a female marcianus and feed it well, or a female western ribbon snake, if you'd like to see a snake that will grow even longer! They get ridiculously huge if fed right!

[ssssnakeluvr]

no one is working with them.....I would love to....but, they are endangered in California...have a small range and are protected.

[ConcinusMan]

To be honest, if there is such a thing as an ugly garter snake, gigas would qualify. I've actually found populations of them and had a chance to observe them. Funny thing is, I never saw one that was very large. I've seen populations of concinnus that had much larger specimens on average. gigas have no appeal to me and I certainly wouldn't even consider keeping one, even if they weren't a threatened species. All that said, they are protected under U.S. law under the Endangered Species Act. They also are protected by California State laws. NO COLLECTING/POSSESSING allowed.

Threatened = likely to become an endangered species in the near future due to ongoing threats and declining numbers.

[drache]

did some research for you (leafing through Rossman et al)
your next runner up to gigas in size would be sirtalis (are all sirtalis "out, or just T.s.sirtalis?), and after that it would be cyrtopsis - very attractive species

[ConcinusMan]

I agree. sirtalis can get quite large (4.5 feet) but that size is probably only reached before the end of their lives if they feed on mammals. Field research seems to support this, so a subspecies that naturally feeds on mammals would have great size potential. My girl (T. sirtalis concinnus) was just over 3.5 feet (she was about 8 inches when I got her) when she died at age 21, but she flat refused any kind of mammal as food and didn't grow much in her last 3 or 4 years.

Nothing to do with size but I laughed when I read this: The longest lived garter snake in captivity was an Eastern or Common Garter Snake reported to have lived 14 years. (Slavens, 1998) Typical longevity in captivity appears to be about 6 - 10 years. Lifespan in the wild is undoubtedly little longer than that.

[Stefan-A]

Nothing to do with size but I laughed when I read this: The longest lived garter snake in captivity was an Eastern or Common Garter Snake reported to have lived 14 years. (Slavens, 1998) Typical longevity in captivity appears to be about 6 - 10 years. Lifespan in the wild is undoubtedly little longer than that.
The typical life span of a wild garter could probably be counted in months. :D

I've heard about garters living up to and possibly over 20 years in captivity, but of course these are all unconfirmed.

[confused]

The typical life span of a wild garter could probably be counted in months. :D



From the amount of dead snakes i see around here, it's probably true.
(I used to have 1000's of frogs before the garters moved in, wonder where they all went)

[drache]

The typical life span of a wild garter could probably be counted in months. :D

I've heard about garters living up to and possibly over 20 years in captivity, but of course these are all unconfirmed.
if it's anything like cats . . .
the statistic for them is such that the average life span of an indoor cat is 17 years, that of an indoor/outdoor cat 7 years, and that of an outdoor cat 3 years
there's probably a similar pattern with snakes, although other than Steve, none of us are likely to have indoor/outdoor ones

[guidofatherof5]

The typical life span of a wild garter could probably be counted in months. :D

I've heard about garters living up to and possibly over 20 years in captivity, but of course these are all unconfirmed.


I hope this info. holds true. I would love to grow old(er) with some of these fine radixes.
When my daughter Gabby heads off to college her Lucky will be around 15. Instead of an old dog sending her off it will be an old radix. That would be cool.

[duh duh duh]

thanks for the responses.

I'll post a new thread for suggestions on what type I should start looking for....

[ConcinusMan]

I hope this info. holds true. I would love to grow old(er) with some of these fine radixes.
When my daughter Gabby heads off to college her Lucky will be around 15. Instead of an old dog sending her off it will be an old radix. That would be cool.

I dunno man. I think a sirtalis (concinnus) in the wild in my area probably get no older than 6 or 7 before getting noticed and eaten by predators, and most do not live beyond 4 years, but it's hard to judge age by size. Rarely, do I find one beyond 26 inches but it does happen occasionally. And like I said before, I never fed my snakes much beyond the food supply they would get in the wild, and I always put them in at least 2 months winter rest each year, as long as they were healthy and last shed went well. I have seen concinnus (or perhaps fitchii) just an hour or two east of my location; in the columbia river george, feasting on fingerling fish at a fish hatchery, and all of them were huge. 2.5-4 feet, but that was due to an unnaturally abundant food supply.

Anyway, I guess what I'm getting at is; because checkards get large in a short time, they possibly do not live as long as a slower growing sirtalis ssp. I believe there is a genetically determined maximum size (and perhaps age) for most snakes. If they reach that max size quickly, I believe they die early. If they take their time, they can live longer. I have nothing to support this, It's just something to consider. An apparent healthy garter, as an adult, and not emaciated, etc. that doesn't eat for perhaps 2-5 weeks at a time, is no cause for concern. Too many keepers push for frequent feeding and fast growth. That's no way to treat a garter (including a plains garter) that you are really fond of. If you wish for many years with your beloved friend, take it slow, take time for winter rest. I believe it makes for a longer life.(remember, my concinnus lived 21 years) Confirmed or not, it's true. She was 21. Her lifelong male companion lived to be 18.

[Stefan-A]

If they grow quickly, they will "outgrow" many of the smaller predators, getting themselves off the menu faster. A fast growth rate would suggest that the predation pressure specifically on small snakes, is great. Small size doesn't really help them to avoid predators, quite the opposite.

[ConcinusMan]

All I know is that I can go many years and see thousands of T. sirtalis(concinnus) but I only very rarely find one approaching 3 feet, and only in captivity, have I seen one under 10 inches. In fact, the majority in the wild (that I've seen or touched) are 12-24 inches.

I've only found 2 in the wild that were past that(3 feet or beyond) size in Vancouver, WA since 1979 and they stuck out like a sore thumb while basking, even while sitting very still, but smaller one's are easy to overlook. The larger one's tend to be easier to catch too, if they are not near the water. On the other hand, I've seen robins and jays selectively feast on snakes(T. sirtalis and elegans)) 3 inches or less, all day long, at sites and times where garters congregate so there's definitely pressure on VERY small snakes, but beyond a certain size, there's a disadvantage too. I think there's pressure on both very small, and very large in this area.(Pacific Northwest) Ordinoides is born larger, but stays small. It also happens to be the most abundant snake around here, in spite of small clutch sizes.

The populations I mentioned in the gorge with very large specimens are almost always right on the water, making it difficult (for the average human, anyway) to capture one. They move very swiftly on the water. I could look out onto a hatchling fish pond, and easily spot 5 or 6 that are 3 feet or larger, just resting on the net that is supposed to be protecting the fish.

All that aside, Guido says that Gabby will be off to college when Lucky will be around 15 years old. If Lucky was a sirtalis, I would say there's a very good chance he'll still be around. Since I just don't know about radix, I would have to speculate, but I would guess, based on similarities, that 15-18 yrs old under good care isn't too unrealistic for Lucky. Just don't be afraid to cool things down quite a bit for a few months each year, and feed modestly. No sense in pushing the growth rate and possibly sacrificing longevity. Radix a species that can spend perhaps half of it's life in hibernation, not feeding at all.

[Mike Spencer]

On Gigas. The only people currently working with them are officials doing surveys and whatnot in the field. There has been a new population of them found this year, but there has been no actual captive breeding or anything done on them. I agree they are not the best looking Thamnophis, but I have been able to experience them in the wild, in their natural habitat. The largest I have seen was around 4 feet or so, and it was completely oblivious to my being 10 feet away or so. Watching them just go on with life, hunting and everything is one of the most rewarding herping moments I have been able to experience thus far.

As far as Sirtalis spp. are concerned, I too find most of them between 12 and 24 inches. I've found neonates this year of both concinnus in Oregon and infernalis in Calfornia though, as well as one concinnus that was 34 inches in Multnomah Co.
I've found numerous T. s. infernalis from 2 localities I know of over 30 inches, as well as a 2 over 36 inches. I also have a locale for T. s. fitchi in central CA where I'm almost convinced they are mammal feeders (lots of farms around with lots and lots of rodents) where the average adult size per year ranges for me from 26 to 30 inches.

[ConcinusMan]

Ditto on infernalis. They do get big. Even though I haven't seen any especially large(over 3 feet) in the gigas populations, I have seen, populations of infernalis where quite a few of them were over 3 feet in my estimation, and the entire (observed) population averaged fairly large size. (2-3 feet)

About not seeing any concinnus neonates; I don't often go out looking for T. sirtalis concinnus in clark/multnohma after mid-late spring. Once the water levels in these wetlands gets low and the vegetation starts drying up, adults can be hard to find in numbers, and neonates are hard to spot as it is. Especially in late summer. Best time to observe concinnus (at least in Salmon creek) is after a winter/spring flood when water high but dropping, and there's still isolated pools of water containing abundant food (tadpoles, fish, etc) in the areas that are usually dry most or all of the year. That just doesn't happen AFTER most of the young are born.

[Mike Spencer]

Ditto on infernalis. They do get big. Even though I haven't seen any especially large(over 3 feet) in the gigas populations, I have seen, populations of infernalis where quite a few of them were over 3 feet in my estimation, and the entire (observed) population averaged fairly large size. (2-3 feet)

About not seeing any concinnus neonates; I don't often go out looking for T. sirtalis concinnus in clark/multnohma after mid-late spring. Once the water levels in these wetlands gets low and the vegetation starts drying up, adults can be hard to find in numbers, and neonates are hard to spot as it is. Especially in late summer. Best time to observe concinnus (at least in Salmon creek) is after a winter/spring flood when water high but dropping, and there's still isolated pools of water containing abundant food (tadpoles, fish, etc) in the areas that are usually dry most or all of the year. That just doesn't happen AFTER most of the young are born.

That makes sense. The only time I've been able to herp Oregon/Washington was this year from mid August until Mid September. Just when a lot of babies were being born. I also observed literally countless T. ordinoides babies....and had the privilege of finding and observing a Columbia Gorge Zonata.

[ConcinusMan]

Yup. if you happen to grab a large concinnus female in mid-late spring, they are almost are gravid, giving birth in Aug or Sept. Never see any variation to that schedule.

ordinoides are a bit confused. Some get gravid, and can be seen breeding near hibernation sites in the fall, and give birth in the spring. Some breed after emerging in the spring and give birth in sept or early oct. so at some point around the autumn and spring equinox, some are giving birth, while others are breeding. And, ordinoides can be found far from water, in relatively sparse vegetation. therefore, neonates can be found nearly any time of year that garters are active and where adults can be found.

I've lived here most of my life, and visited the gorge many times. With the exception of huge, overfed sirtalis concinnus at fish hatcheries, I've never seen any other snake in the gorge. But, I have also only a few times, found pacific rubber boas and western yellow bellied racers in my county. I even observed a child catching young Gopher snakes in Battleground, WA but I never found one myself outside of So. CA. Supposedly, there are ringnecks here too. Just 15 miles east of my location and just south in Benton Co, Oregon. Never seen one of those outside of So. CA either.

I guess that my point is, just because I haven't seen them much, or at all, doesn't mean they aren't abundant in certain areas. Heck, I had never seen a scorpion outside of So. CA either, until recently. They are quite abundant in the gorge. but obviously, no gigas. The largest garter in the wild, I've ever seen was a T. sirtalis concinnus, in spite of observing thick populatons of gigas in CA. the largest snake I've seen overall, was a 6+ foot gopher snake in San Diego county and one kingsnake about that size, in the same county. In both cases, it was early in the morning, in June or July and approaching 85 degrees fast, and the snakes literally came up to me as I was resting in a (scarce) shady area in a dry, but moist and deep creek bed. The snakes and I were both quite surprised. I actually had a chance to grab the gopher snake. Big mistake. He tore me up, and got away as I bled. The kingsnake caught me in a different mood. I didn't want to grab it and I was rewarded with company for about an hour while we both took some time to cool down.

[Mike Spencer]

I caught a Pacific gopher in Polk Co. on my way back down to California a month ago. In the gorge, I only went the one day, but we also cruised Crotalus oreganus. A Northern Pacific rattlesnake. As far as kings and gophers are concerned, I'm up to 16 kings this year, which is a really slow year for me in Northern CA. My biggest is only about 4.5 ft. but I've caught a few gophers over 6 ft. Including one that was 6'5" last year. I've lived in and herped Northern CA my whole life, though, besides the little bit of time I was staying in Portland recently.

[ConcinusMan]

A gopher snake in polk, co. Oregon? really? I've never found one myself until I moved to San Diego. Then I saw kids catching them in Battle ground, just north of Vancouver and was very surprised. I've lived all over CA and never found a king outside of San Diego co. either, although I hear they are common around bear creek near I-5 in southern oregon.

I just got home with my new Lampropeltis triangulum. she's a beauty. She's about 3 feet long, very healthy, and very ready to shed. I think it will happen by morning.

Still going to get me a pair of concinnus this spring. I just love them.

[Mike Spencer]

Yup. I know a tinsite in Polk that produces gophers, racers, concinnus, and ordinoides. It's a pretty cool spot.
If you're in California at any point and have some time, be sure to get a hold of me. I'll make sure to either show you some spots or at least guide you to some.

[ConcinusMan]

Thanks much. I have no problem finding racers, ordinoides, and obviously, I have a known spot just 20 minutes north of my location for small gophers. I even know a spot that is known for fairly large rubber boas, and I know where to find numerous northern alligator lizards. Just east of my location, perhaps 25 miles I can even find Western Fence lizards. There have been confirmed reports of mountain king snakes in the same area!

You were talking about Polk co. Oregon, just east of Salem weren't you? That's really not too far from Benton co. Oregon, where there are some of the most beautiful concinnus to be found. Ringnecks are also common in Polk and Benton counties, so I hear. Sadly, ringnecks have been extirpated from my county (last confirmed sighting was in the late 50's)

[Mike Spencer]

Bummer about the ringnecks. Yeah. My spot in Polk is right near the Polk/Benton Co. line. Gorgeous concinnus there. A lot of them have the solid red heads. The zonata I was talking about was a Washington State CA Mt. Kingsnake. Their range in Washington is very small. Only about 15 square miles I believe. I just got lucky and was able to find one my first day out. It helps coming from their native state though, and having studied them long enough to know where I should be looking. I studied their range quite a bit and everything, google earthed the area, all sorts of planning, and it paid off.

I know most of the localities in northern CA for striped phase Pacific gopher snakes too. I like them a lot more than the normal blothched ones.

[ConcinusMan]

oh, that "zonata" I feel stupid now. But yeah, I know a spot not too far east of my location, in Skamania Co. which is the spot I mentioned. As soon as you can start finding fence lizards, you're in the right spot. I think they're prettier than milks, but I can't justify owning one. I think they are too precious, and it might be illegal in WA. Oh well. It just occurred to me that we hijacked the thread and are way off topic.

[Steven@HumboldtHerps]

I know most of the localities in northern CA for striped phase Pacific gopher snakes too. I like them a lot more than the normal blothched ones.

Well, I live in Humboldt County, and I have been dying to photograph a wild striped gopher snake! We must talk more on the issue!