Garter snake disposition

[confused]

Hi, I am caring for a garter snake which is my first experience with them. She has gone from almost affectionate (she would come to me when I put my hand in the enclosure and crawl into my hand and rub on me, really, I never had to initiate picking her up) to interpreting my skin as "bad". She won't crawl onto it for anything now,which is amusing if I pick her up with one glove on, she won't leave it, and tends to snap at me if I try to touch her. She's eating fine, seems to be healthy now, compared to when I first got her she has come miles. I probably am going to have to release her shortly, but I was interested in another garter, until this one decided it didn't like me anymore.

So I'm curious, how much does everyones snakes seem to "like" them? Are there tricks to taming them? Does everyone get bit time to time? Should I be so concerned about what the silly snakes feelings are towards me? For the first week or so I never tried to pick it up, it just came to me and crawled in my hand. I think it decided it didn't like me after I put it into some water to make sure mites were off, and when I picked her up my hands were wet and she couldn't move at all. She was stuck from friction. After that I had to pick her up on my own (gently of course), and now she just runs and bites. :D

[guidofatherof5]

Does she have mites? Water alone is not a cure.
I personally I think the snakes do get used to and trust us. I think that they look forward to seeing us and interacting with us. Much of this is in anticipation of food but I also have many snakes that will come out even after they are fed and will hangout on me.
I've had some pretty wild radixes and the best way to tame them was patients.
I think it's good for you to be concerned about their feeling towards you, it can only help you care for them better.

[confused]

Thanks for the info!

She has no sign of mites, nor has she ever, she just seemed very interested in rubbing on things, so to be safe, I gave her a 85 degree bath, she hated it. I don't think she is very fond of heat at all, possibly something she doesn't like about me handling her, I think it's kind of overwhelming to her, she never uses the heated area of the cage dark or light, and it's at 80 or so. Maybe I will cool her down a bit.....

[guidofatherof5]

Rubbing their faces after a meal or drinking is normal. Rubbing to get a shed started is also normal. In the absence of these 2 things they don't do a lot of rubbing, unless mites are involved. Is just the face being rubbed or does he/she dig places along her body onto the substrate.
If the rubbing continues you may need to buy some mite spray.
All snakes are intereted in heat. The 85 degree water may have been more of a shock to her. She may associate you picking her up with the water experience. Just my thoughts.

[GarterGeek]

Could she be having a difficult shed? If she's rubbing things, and getting irritable it may be a sign that she's ready to shed, but not accomplishing it...Did her eyes get blue a while ago?

Are you sure your snake is female? One of my male garters, who is generally very friendly, gets very aggressive and irritable when mating season comes around. Perhaps he (if it is a he) is just interested in breeding.

Snakes are very in tune to smell. If you've been using a different lotion, soap, or perfume, or have been handling food or glue your snake may be freaking about how you smell.

Just some ideas, I hope they're of some use to you. :)

[confused]

She only rubs her face and neck, and it's not that often, maybe twice a day that I see that aren't eating related. Once, when she realized I would scratch her chin, she kept moving back to my finger when I stopped and rubbing it herself until I started again.

She is not in shed, I know reptiles, her color is brilliant, I think she is just weird. She has way too much personality for a snake, and she seems obsessed with how objects feel. For instance, she got really excited when I gave her a log to play on, and ran circles for 30 minutes on it rubbing her face in the grooves. She didn't leave it for a week until I gave her a glove. Anything plush she LOVES. I can put my hand in a winter glove and she will still come over and crawl on it, her favorite thing now is to sleep in the glove. (which smells like me, I'd think she would like me). She will sleep in my hand if I wear a glove. Otherwise, she won't sit still for anything while I hold her. If I just hold the glove in my hand not on it, she will crawl into it and sleep. :rolleyes: Actually, she does like me, she never runs from me unless I try to hold her, she will crawl all over the tank with my hands in it and come up to me.

Wow this thing has me typing a bunch.

I'm not sure its a female 100%, but all the charts I have seen made me think it was a she. I will try for a good stretched out pic, but she always is curled. She/he musked once with no one around on, wait for it, something plush. That kind of thing made me kind of think male behavior..... (I am a guy).:D

Please excuse my dirty fingers, I make a mess for a living.

http://i110.photobucket.com/albums/n91/nich0lai/snakey.jpg

http://i110.photobucket.com/albums/n91/nich0lai/DSC01498.jpg

http://i110.photobucket.com/albums/n91/nich0lai/snakeypoo.jpg

Ok, maybe she is going into shed. That last latest pic does look suspicious. In person she has a bit of irridecent blue green to her that is not showing up.

[guidofatherof5]

Here's a link to a thread to help with sexing your snake. It will also help you with the needed photos for posting.
http://www.thamnophis.com/forum/breeding/5069-sexing-pics-2.html#post112902

[confused]

Thanks! you guys make holding them still enough to sex look easy. My baby won't stop moving, thank goodness I have a very helpful girlfriend.

I'm normally not this ugly! (odd moment of snake juggling, unfortunately that's the best pic) Snake is cute though. Her name is sushi, as she seems to like fish over anything, I just got a pick of her ignoring a worm to doze on the glove.

http://i110.photobucket.com/albums/n91/nich0lai/snakebooty4.jpg


http://i110.photobucket.com/albums/n91/nich0lai/snakebooty5.jpg

http://i110.photobucket.com/albums/n91/nich0lai/snakebooty2.jpg

http://i110.photobucket.com/albums/n91/nich0lai/DSC02384.jpg

notice the worm directly under her nose. She saw it, licked it, decided to take a nap. She also isn't nipping at me today at all. Back to her old self. Hmm. Sorry for so many photos! mods feel free to delete.
http://i110.photobucket.com/albums/n91/nich0lai/DSC02378.jpg

[guidofatherof5]

I think your third photo would have been the best in deciding a sex on this snake. If you could edit that photo and reduce the flash effect and then repost it, that would be great. If you want to send it to me and I'll edit for you, send it to guidofatherof5@cox.net From what I've seen I'm leaning towards female.
Leaning but not jumping:D If I'm wrong then I say it's a male.:D

[jitami]

I'm also leaning female... and she sounds like a pretty normal active busy garter girl. My guys don't sit still in my hands like say a ball python may. They're always moving through my hands... sometimes more vigorously than others, but rarely do they sit still for any length of time. I love how they have to explore anything new in their environment, too. Your girl certainly seems to enjoy that, too. Gotta love these active, curious, little guys.

[aSnakeLovinBabe]

it looks like a young female you have there, and a well loved one at that! The pic with her eye looking all cloudy, that's just a glare from the flash, kind of like how cat's and dog's eyes do as well.

[aSnakeLovinBabe]

also, we would never delete your photos, you can never have too many photos and we love them! and... is that a dark fuzzy glove you are using as a hide?! At first glance, I thought it to be a clump of cocofiber... until I saw it's in the shape of a hand...!

Another great fabric hide can be made using black tube socks and toilet paper rolls, just stuff the roll into the end of the sock and leave the rest of the sock trailing. They love it!

[confused]

The cardboard tubes sound fun. It is a dollar store fuzzy glove, yes. She just loves fuzzy. I made a mistake of letting her on a recycled plastic blanket, she burrowed in and fell asleep. It's been all about the fuzzy since then. She's holed up in the glove now, which is kinda fun to peel back like a banana to find her.

Today she's moody again, wouldn't leave a glove to come onto my hand again when I was wearing it and won't take food for two days, something is up! Hopefully a shed. Should I just leave her alone?

[guidofatherof5]

Should I just leave her alone?

It can't hurt to just give her some space. Sometimes they need that, too.

[confused]

I left her alone for about 20 hours, and bam, there's my baby back. She crawled into both my hands. Now if I could just get her to eat, it's been three days and she is really hungry, she shows interest but won't eat it, its odd.

Anyone know where to get real earthworms online? I bet she would take one, she won't take a night crawler.

She has a new behavior, we have seen it four times now. If you put your hand in her cage wearing a glove, she will come see you in the glove, rub on it, then go over to the matching glove in the cage that's her hide and rub on it the same way, and then usually lie on top of it and doze. :rolleyes: She recognizes they are the same apparently.

[guidofatherof5]

Anyone know where to get real earthworms online? I bet she would take one, she won't take a night crawler.

3-4 day off food is nothing to a garter snake. I've had them go 10 weeks without food and survive.
What part of the county are you in? Any grassy area should produce earthworms. Look under rocks, logs, debris, wet leaf litter. Do not collect them out of the street, too much pollution out there. If you do harvest some make sure it's from a fertilzer/pesticide free area.
I can't say I've ever seen earthworms for sale anywhere.
You did say she takes guppies. If you put her in a small container, drop the live guppies in with a little guppy sauce(guppy water) then drop in the very small pieces of nightcrawler in the mix. The guppy water will make the worms smell like guppies. She may also get so excited about catching guppies that she'll accidently grab a piece of worm. She won't know the difference and will eat it right down. If I need to I'll mail you a few earthworms, as long as I have some.
Please keep us informated about your progress with your little bipolar garter:D

[confused]

I'm not actually worried yet, but her behavior is bi-polar! You know what a hungry snake acts like. Constant tongue flicks and hunting behavior. Striking at anything new in her cage. Immediate interest in anything new, she races over as soon as she sees something. She actually struck at a water drop coming off her fish filet (i tried salmon and ocean perch which she loves nomally, is lake perch ok)?, but wasn't interested in the fish itself. Hmm, I haven't tried guppy. That will be the next step I guess. I thought I read they had a lot of parasites. I bet she would strike at one.

Where I am it has been dropping below 30 at night, so the worms are scarce. My normal spot for them used to provide 16 inch real worms , I would think they were snakes when I found them thick as my fingers almost, which she would eat (cut up) no matter how many times in the last few days that she ate.

Thanks!

How about slugs on the web?

[confused]

http://i110.photobucket.com/albums/n91/nich0lai/slugtime.jpg
Found a slug! Might be too big, its about the max size I'd guess for her to eat. She seems kinda afraid.

[guidofatherof5]

If you get the guppies use the small container method. That method puts her in very close proximity to the food. Flopping guppies drive garters crazy. Some of the striking you are describing doesn't sound like feeding response, sounds more defensive in nature.

The air temp has to stay below 32 of a good week before the ground is frozen enough to halt the worm harvest and drive them out of reach.

I personally haven't heard anything about parasites and guppies.
I have firsthand knowledge of the Minnow/parasite connection and have read about the parasite/goldfish connection.

I don't think slugs are on the T.s.s (Eastern's) menu.

She looks very healthy and in great shape.

[confused]

I will try the guppies.

She chased the water drop a good 4 inches as it ran, ignoring my hand holding a platter of sashimi! Then she crawled on my hand. :confused:

I will just let her be again shortly, I wouldn't be trying to feed her if she wasn't acting how she acted after I let her go about 4 days without food once, she tried to eat raw organic pork that day! (it was the first week, I figured, hey why not, oops)

[confused]

did not eat the slug. catch and release program.


http://i110.photobucket.com/albums/n91/nich0lai/glove.jpg
no glove no love, shes watching me type this as we speak.

[guidofatherof5]

Very cool about this whole glove situation.:)

[confused]

No kidding! I am trying to get a good video of her comparing gloves, she did it on video today, but honestly the one on video, its debatable whether its that or running for cover. :D

No store for one hour sells feeder guppies, just large colored ones. :confused:

http://i110.photobucket.com/albums/n91/nich0lai/sleep.jpg

she couldn't decide what to sleep on for the night......:rolleyes: is everyone else's snake this random? She moves around all night, stays about 3 hours per place.

[confused]

here's another iffy video of her. maybe you guys won't think I'm as nuts about this glove crap if i get a few of them. lol. nevermind, i am nuts. i could see this as defensive or curious in this one.

I'm not doing two voices, though it sounds like it at first! My GF agrees with you that's not a good example, but she also agrees the snake is worried we took her toy away or something!

YouTube - M4H02419 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-PAJW2vs3s)

when she hides, she goes for a corner of the log and coils so i can't dig her out.

So how old is she?

[Mommy2many]

Where do you live? As Steve said, you should still be able to find worms right now. Especially if you are on the East Coast, where I am. It'll be warm & rainy today, great worm catching weather!

I also have the guppy problem. NO ONE sells feeder guppies here. I will occasionally use the tuffies for my guys. I think it is the lesser of the 3 evils that are offered. Everyday meals are salmon & earthworms. Pinkies for my larger guys.

Walmart sells nightcrawlers in the sporting/fishing section of the store. You will want the canadian nightcrawlers.

Good luck!

[confused]

Thanks! She won't take nightcrawlers from walmart unfortunately no matter how I scent them...... no idea why. Also, the worms in my yard have moved on. I've been trying to dig one for two weeks, since our first couple of snows. I agree they should be there, but where I was getting huge worms, now there is nothing anywhere. What i thought was a dead mouse stuck to my ventilation for a few days was a bat in hibernation already. :eek: It woke up after i ran a few thousand degree kiln under it for an hour or so.

[mustang]

good luck!!!

[confused]

Thanks!

I am not ashamed to admit I am wrong, the worms are out today, it's 70.

I know I sound like I make stuff up, so I present to you for your edification, the 18 inch common earthworm. Note the paper plate for reference.

http://i110.photobucket.com/albums/n91/nich0lai/omgick.jpg

These things are bigger than my snake. BY A LOT.

http://i110.photobucket.com/albums/n91/nich0lai/doubleick-1.jpg

Now its time to clean my floor, sigh. (and to see if sushi is hungry for worm)

[confused]

Ha! I was holding her thinking, "she likes me again, she doesn't run at all and lets me grab her, she's eating. It's time to post a happy update, and BAM. She strikes me. lol. No warning, she didn't try to run away after, just a quick taste out of nowhere and back to normal. I did smell different, new soap. Would she musk if it was fear? She musked once the first time i picked her up ever, that's the only time. She ate today too so I don't think she was hungry, but it was a small enough meal I felt comfortable handling her...... maybe that was it. Lord knows with her.

She will eat worms anytime I show them to her. So I started a worm farm from ones I caught, lets hope it works out. I know I need to supplement.... but now I can scent. Oh, her color came back to green blue off the salmon it seems.

I switched gloves on her as a test, the one I was wearing for hers, she won't sleep in it anymore, though she sits on it happily, and she still makes sure hers is there if she sees mine. I switched back tonight to see if she owuld sleep in it again.

Anyone have a snake they would let go that actually likes to be handled? She is making me enjoy having a snake around, but she just only tolerates me.:cool: I want one that wants to hang out. I think I am going to post a classified ad looking for a human loving garter. :D

[guidofatherof5]

How long have you had her? With some it takes longer to settle in. I think patients is the key word here. There's nothing wrong with a snake that has a little attitude. Getting a snake from someone else doesn't guarantee that snake will be docile for you.
I'd start working with her without the glove. Let her get to know your skin and the heat it supplies. Even if you just reach in and touch her as she goes by. It may be a slow process but one that is well worth the effort. Some of them never lose that independent side. They let you know once in awhile that they are still in charge. Nothing wrong with that. I don't have 2 snakes that are exactly the same. They each have things they tolerate and things they don't. They have good and bad days just like us.
I do know that the more time I spend with my snakes the more they trust me. The more at ease they are with me handling them and interupting their days.

[confused]

Thanks!

I only use the glove when she is acting particularly anti us. Which is about %50 I guess. :D She bit the other hand not wearing the glove last night!

[confused]

I hear what you are saying. She bites me if I give her to my girlfirend to hold. It's pretty funny. Besides that we seem to have made peace again. It's been a bit over a month.

I have given up the glove 100%. We have a new ritual, she runs until she notices its me, then she stops and waits for me to pick her up. This works. It was funny she charged me thinking she was in trouble, ended up coiled in my hand waiting fro a pickup mid strike, she figured out who it was.

She won't sit still in my hand unless she can bridge my fingers and not touch much skin. I'm convinced since it doesn't go above 81 here all year, anything above that temp makes her uncomfortable.

She's also given up fish for good it seems. She had a bad time a few weeks ago eating some pieces I cut up for her, bad luck it looked like really, they all ended up mangled and sideways, since then she wont eat fish, she just tosses it around the cage, she mouths it but won't swallow it. She has way too good of a memory, or she has another problem. Before she owuld eat so much, i thought she might burst once when I put too much in. This snake is NUTS. Eats worms ok, though still kind of lightly. She will eat one small worm every two days. Before she would east two medium worms. I need more, they are in short supply.

thanks for the advice.

mods, wanna rename the thread sushi the difficult garter or something else since this isnt about general snake intelligence and attitude anymore? lol.

[drache]

at this time of year many of them become finicky around food or stop eating altogether
if she stops eating you may have to cool her down for a while to "reset" her appetite

[confused]

I hope not! :D She seems to be sneaking a tiny piece or two of fish per day, I think, or so say the myriad of tiny poops I found around her cage today, so maybe she's ok. At what point do I give in?

[guidofatherof5]

I use a 3 week without food rule. That way I know the gut is empty of food. If not the food will rot and kill them. I've had some go 4 weeks and still do fine in the fridge. I've got 2 girls in there now. They're in a small clear container with a soft towel and a water bowl. They can soak or get a drink if they want to. They get checked once a day and their weight is checked every 2 weeks.

[confused]

Any good way for me to check to see if she is eating enough to be healthy? Maybe weigh her? Should it be going up a certain amount at her age?

Thanks.

[guidofatherof5]

Appearance(complete sheds, no blisters or infections, clean vent/cloaca), attitude(this is a baseline thing since many snakes have many different attitudes) and activity(garters are very active as a rule. Most don't hide all the time. Most are curious about their surroundings) are the best ways to check health in my opinion.
Garters grow throughout their lives. It's good to get a baseline weight on your snake, a starting point. I don't check weights to see if they've put on a certain amount, just that they aren't losing weight. My snakes get fed very well here on the Ranch and at times during any season they may stop eating for a few weeks. I think they know when to take a break and when to start eating again.
I use more of my visual observations to judge health, it seem to work well for my friends.
You really need to nail down whether she's eating or not. That's the only way you can move forward with a plan for her wellbeing and future.

[confused]

She eats roughly every other day, just not very well. I would say she is taking in a baby worm (or a baby worms worth of food) when before she would eat half a real human sized sashimi piece or one average sized worm. So about 1/10th what she was eating. I haven't seen her eat enough to make a bulge in about a week and a half+, though she used to eat enough I questioned whether she could live through it. It looked like a finger inside her gut. (that was every 3-4 days, i upped how often the food is being offered when she slowed down)

Thanks for all the advice, it seems to be spot on. A few days of just me and her she completely trusts me, she does hide from and bite my girlfriend though.

[guidofatherof5]

Thanks for all the advice, it seems to be spot on. A few days of just me and her she completely trusts me, she does hide from and bite my girlfriend though.

If she's eating I call that good. She may just be in a slow phase of her development. It sounds like you keep a close eye on her and that's a good thing.
I have a few snakes that are 1 person snakes. They like me but don't want anyone else messing with them. Most of my snakes hide when strangers/visitors come into the snake room. Some take to the visitors quickly and others are more reserved. It's a big thing for them to trust what is usually a danger to them.
Sit and watch a movie with your girlfriend and the snake. The more time she spends with you and your girlfriend the more she'll trust both of you.
Keep up the good work.

[confused]

Thanks!

I think the problems the snake has with my girlfriend is that she has no idea how to hold a reptile without scaring it. She tries to pet it (that got her bit today), touch the tip of the tail (she thinks it's "cute", sigh) she moves fast around her and comes from above the head, etc. I feel bad for the poor snake her learning on it, I'm tempted to get a tamer snake for that reason.


In time..... hopefully. :)

[confused]

Well I found guppies.


I did Steve's guppy trick, and I don't see any fish in the tank. I'm going to wait a few hours and let her settle before I hunt around the tank to see if she ate it or if it suicided. I didn't think she was going to, so, I was hunting fish flake in the cupboard and had named the fish sashimi in my head. How appropriate.

Edit: Doh, found a dead guppy, wish I was faster catching that.... I hate anything dying on my watch. Fail. I was pretty sure she ate it.

[guidofatherof5]

Put her in a small container with the fish. Then you don't have to search. Her alone with some flopping guppies and they will be gone.
Guppies have a bad habit of jumping out of shallow dishes so putting her in a container keeps everyone close.

[duh duh duh]

If you're into fish a little bit, consider purchasing a handful of Jewel Cichlids. If you ask around a bit you can usually get them for about a buck a fish.

Eventually one dominant male and one dominant female will pair up and start popping out the babies. Cichlids are neat because the parents will guard the babies.

In any event, they will pop out a good 50 per month. Normally the catfish in the tank will eat them, or they will get sucked up by the filter, but if you wanted to, you could really get them going. They will grow bigger than guppies and will grow fairly quickly and become a great food for the garters.

My experience with guppies lately (last 3-4 years) is that they have become highly overbred and inbred and are really becoming an inferior species. Even good looking healthy specimens are only lasting a year at best before keeling over.

Next garter I get I'm going to try and breed the jewel cichlids as food.

[guidofatherof5]

If you're into fish a little bit, consider purchasing a handful of Jewel Cichlids. If you ask around a bit you can usually get them for about a buck a fish.

Eventually one dominant male and one dominant female will pair up and start popping out the babies. Cichlids are neat because the parents will guard the babies.

In any event, they will pop out a good 50 per month. Normally the catfish in the tank will eat them, or they will get sucked up by the filter, but if you wanted to, you could really get them going. They will grow bigger than guppies and will grow fairly quickly and become a great food for the garters.

My experience with guppies lately (last 3-4 years) is that they have become highly overbred and inbred and are really becoming an inferior species. Even good looking healthy specimens are only lasting a year at best before keeling over.

Next garter I get I'm going to try and breed the jewel cichlids as food.

Do they contain thiaminase? If so, that puts them on the unsafe fish list.
http://www.thamnophis.com/caresheets/index.php?title=Thiamin,

[Charis]

If they are that much easier to breed, I'd be really interested in them. Would be good to know if they have Thiamin!

[Stefan-A]

If they are that much easier to breed, I'd be really interested in them. Would be good to know if they have Thiamin!
Thiamine is the vitamin, thiaminase is the enzyme that breaks it down.

[ConcinusMan]

I would make darn sure she isn't getting too warm. That, and when the eyes are cloudy (and their pretty much blind) are the only times I've seen that sort of change in disposition.

Sex = female. Confidence high.

It's the fourth pic that makes it easier. From the side, showing vent and tail. Notice how the tail gets smaller than the body immediately after the vent? Even in snakes that are of unknown sex, you just don't see that unless they later are confirmed to be female.(in my experience)

[confused]

I wouldn't be surprised if my whole house was too hot for her. I keep it at 75+ because I'm a southerner trapped up north, so add a heat light and a belly heat source, it's got to be 85+ at parts of her cage, though the ambient thermometer reads no higher than 81 in there. I think I agree with you, if I cool her down she loves me and will go to sleep in my hand, but I felt bad keeping her cool so she liked me! She gets complacent around 70. She has only used the hotside of the tank once, (and it's not very hot at all, I have a non burning stick on herp pad under a towel, under the cage, with the towel between the cage and the pad). A thermometer put on the warm floor hits 90, though if you move it one inch over to ambient air it says 81 or so.

Keeping in mind I live in part of the country that never gets above 85 outside, and usually averages about 80 for a week or two in the summer, with 9 months of fall/spring/winter, what do you think she is going to be comfortable at?

She will eat worms. She has taken to hiding all day now instead of being active, and strikes at me if I bother her the wrong way. Theres definitely a right or wrong way to approach her and the difference isn't much. If I approach her nose she won't bite, behind the head is a strike. Yeah, that makes sense. She has given up all food besides live worms from the backyard, which are hit or miss this time of year. She will also give me warning bites if I hold her too long. About 10 minutes of me stopping her from wandering where she wants, the tail starts going back and forth and she nips at me until I put her back into the cage. She has me trained. If I see a tail moving back and forth, I know I'm going to be bit in the next 10 seconds or so. I can watch the annoyance mount. Interestingly if I keep the experience from getting boring, like walk around the house, show her something new, let her look out a window, play on a light dangle cord, quick hand/sponge bath etc, she will hang out longer. I swear she just gets bored and bites me.

[ConcinusMan]

70-75 degree ambient air temperature with (or without, on warmer days) a low watt focused basking light outside of the snake's reach, of course, is plenty, and is good enough for summer. Often, the room where I kept my sirtalis reached 80-90 in summer. During those days, I turn off everything but the florescent. Rough guide: provide a range of temperature from 70-90 degrees when your snakes have food in their belly. In any case, if the ambient air on the cool end is over 80 degrees, I turn off any other heat sources. Don't forget a reliable humidity gauge. It should read 50-70 percent and they should have a secure water dish large enough for them to soak their entire bodies in. Garters rarely favor temps over 85-90 and only visit those spots if the ambient temperature or their internal temperature is 70 degrees or less, and they have just had a meal. Either way, if your garter has no place to cool down his body to below 85 degrees, and/or no place to get out of bright lights, he's going to get a little cranky. It's also good to cool down as much as possible at night (55-70 degrees). Jan-April I keep them at roughly 50-60 degrees and NO heat sources other than air temperature but that cool winter time can be skipped. Unless your snake is sick, it's best to error on the cool side. If they seem to be clinging to bottom heat sources, you can up the temperature a bit using a low watt incandescent. Other than that, keep things on the cool side. best to have a spot where they can always get down to 70 degrees and leave the higher temperatures to their choice. Judging from your climate, if your snakes are local, you're probably overheating her. Even if you're not, it cannot hurt to cool her down, and even a naturally hostile snake will calm down at lower temps.

[confused]

Hmm, she didn't seem to like it cooler at all. She just balled up and slept for a whole day. I've gotten her to eat a worm a day for three days. If only the supply holds out..... supposed to snow tonight.

[ConcinusMan]

Nothing wrong with balling up and sleeping. She's only human.. umm. I mean she's only a snake. She may have balled up, but did she seem to cling to the warmest part of the tank. That's the question. If not.. well... probably not a heat issue.

[confused]

Actually, she has been in the warmest part of the tank for once..... hmm.

I have her eating again. It took coaxing with tongs and worms. A whole week with no worms put her in a no energy funk is my current theory as she's out and acting normal after three days in a row of backyard worm. She will not eat canadian crawlers, picky thing. I even got her to eat a bite of salmon. The trick seems to be to tease her with the salmon in chopsticks, then drop it on her, it annoys her so much she eats whatever it is. :D

[guidofatherof5]

I've got a few babies that won't eat anything but earthworms unless I trick them. While they're in a small container I drop baby eartworms and baby nightcrawler in at the same time. They will smell the earthworms and strike at anything. Many times they grab a nightcrawler. Once they have a hold of it they don't let go.
Yes, I've tried dropping in only baby nightcrawlers, they just look at me and don't attempt to eat. Some scrubs can be very picky.:D

[bothrops]

Dear confused,

I have been working with reptiles for more than 40 years. My professional experience is mostly with crotalids. I have collected in Africa, S. America, Mexico, and all over the U.S. One of my favorite critters is the thamnophis group. Snakes do have moods. Some are more intelligent than others. One day your snake may be "happy" and a day later, cranky. This is nothing to worry about. I have nine large Pituophis, four being large pine snakes. Some days they are wonderful, you could carry them around for hours. Some days, one will bite the hell out of you! If you handle snakes, you are going to be bitten. That is simply a fact. This is particularly true of the venomous snakes. Never used your hands!!!
The more you handle your Thamnophis, the more accustomed it will be to you, most of the time. Mood swings are normal. If you are bitten, do not jerk you hand, it will tear your skin and harm the snake's teeth. This could lead to serious infection, for the snake! Learn your reptiles, and be aware of the realities when dealing with certain reptiles.

God Bless, good luck.

[confused]

My SO spends a lot of time complaining that I am too picky of an eater, and it's just not natural to not eat anything when you are hungry if its in front of you. This snake killed that argument! :D (I am too picky though)

I will try your worm trick sometime if I am low on worms. I'm afraid it will put her off of worms though, it's taken her awhile to accept fish again.

[ConcinusMan]

OMG! a whole week! ptttt!!

[confused]

Dude, she is fasting if I withhold worm for two days. Seriously. If I give her a worm one day, the next day she will eat a small piece of fish. If I go two days with fish, she stops eating until she see's a worm again! Really. If I want her to break fast, fetch her a worm, she strike feeds before it hits the floor of the tank. I don't know what I am going to do in a month or two. She better start liking something else. I suspect this is why I found her half dead, no worms on the surface once it snows.

All the nonsense with gloves and her crawling into my hand is done. She loves me now she realizes I have all the worms. :D No more goofing around waiting for her to get her feelings right about me picking her up, just a quick scoop and she's pretty happy to see me. She hasn't bit me in what feels like weeks. Will sleep on me now (though she still stretches out to touch me as little as possible).:eek: She knows I won't let her leave my hands, so she just does circles, suddenly I have a well behaved monster.

She still runs if she sees my SO.

Steve, she definitely likes me more clean shaven, and even more if I am in a brown sweater (which kind of looks like her now that I think of it). Think this backs up your eyeglass thing.

[ConcinusMan]

@ bothrops: I too have quite a bit of experience with Pituophis (Pacific gophers, wild-caught)

Good advice with the not jerking back. Sometimes it's just a reflex, other times I expect to get bit and just give them some slack until they let go. I once grabbed a 7 footer that approached me as I rested in a deep, moist, cool creek bed in San Diego County. It was already approching 90 degrees F in the morning. The creek bed was easily 10 degrees cooler, and moist. She was overheated (actually gasping) and seeking refuge, and so was I. I tried for the neck area but grabbed her a bit south of that and she tore me up, but I jerked back resulting in tearing of my skin near the wrist. (I still have a faint scar) This happened around 1987. For the most part, they get used to handling but still have their "moods" No matter what. They are like that. Always.

I have much more experience with pacific area garters. They are pretty much even tempered. One or two weeks into captivity and you have a pretty good idea of their disposition. They generally calm down and are consistant unlike gophers. A "moody" or occasionally hostile or biting garter, beyond a few weeks will stay that way, but they are rare in my experience. Every garter I have kept only striked (not biting) or bit when captured. For their remaining days in captivity, even for many years, the worst that they did was an occasional musking. All bites sustained after that were a feeding response. A.K.A. my skin was mistaken for food. And yes, they do have varying (perceived by me) intelligence. Females of sirtalis seem to be "smarter" and less likely to react on reflex by musking, biting, etc. than males.

@ confused: I still think that her preference for worms, and the colder weather resulted in her being present in an active burrow. Likely that of a mole or other rodent that feeds on worms. I'm thinking mole. Place any foreign object, alive or not, into an active tunnel and it will promptly get ejected. Usually in the middle of the night. I have found garters, early in the morning, usually in the fall when night time temperatures fall below freezing. they were ejected by moles or voles, and the snakes were small earthworm eaters. (T. ordinoides) and there they lay, too cold to move, until I found them.

If she likes worms, fine. No problem. Still, no reason to expect a garter to eat every other day, or even twice a week. If she gets picky about eating, and refuses to eat for 2-4 weeks and every thing else seems fine, it's no need to worry. She won't starve to death.

She could also be confused. Maybe she really does need to brumate. Personally, since garters are so common, I would try to find one with a sweeter disposition. I have occasionally run into individuals that just won't adapt.

[guidofatherof5]

Some of them can be rather particular with certain things in their lives. That is one of the things that attracts me to them. Not just variety in colors and patterns but also personalities. Some want approached with food in a certain way, some don't want touched while they are eating and others don't care. They will let you know if and when you cross the line.

As far as your worms go. Grab a shovel and start a collection. Walmart also sells Canadian Nightcrawlers(never buy the Panfish worms) A container should last you awhile. Cut them into very small pieces, your snake will love them.

[ConcinusMan]

My adult concinnus loved night crawlers. If they grab the worm by the tail, they tend to crawl back out though. For that reason, I would usually cut the worm in half or thirds. As adults though, I didn't feed them worms very often. If I saw a robin picking on a watered lawn in summer, and discovered a night crawler, or if I was digging around in the yard and found a good sized worm, I would of course grab it and feed it to the snakes. I guess you could call me an opportunistic feeder? When the opportunity arrived, and I found myself in possession of a meaty night crawler then yeah, my buddies got night crawler treats.

First year neonates were fed almost exclusively on red worms(Eisenia fetida) or diced night crawlers but they loved tiny pieces of raw trout, salmon, or even wild-collected frog meat too.

Canadian night crawlers, or just plain "night crawler", those big fat worms are all just Lumbricus terrestris. Native to Europe. They are the large worms that tend to come out at night, or after a soaking rain.

[guidofatherof5]

Eisenia fetida-I thought those were toxic :confused:Eisenia foetida - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eisenia_foetida)

[drache]

red wigglers are supposedly toxic
I've never tried feeding them to my snakes, and have always assumed the occasional worm that my worm eating snakes refuse to be one of them

[ConcinusMan]

Must not be toxic to garters. At least not sirtalis concinnus. They could just stuff themselves on them and seem to do just fine. Never heard about any toxicity.

[confused]

The more you handle your Thamnophis, the more accustomed it will be to you, most of the time. Mood swings are normal. If you are bitten, do not jerk you hand, it will tear your skin and harm the snake's teeth. This could lead to serious infection, for the snake! Learn your reptiles, and be aware of the realities when dealing with certain reptiles.

God Bless, good luck.

Thanks for your advice. She is grumpy today, I've been bitten 5 times or so trying to clean up her cage. :D I am trying to learn not to jerk my hand when she bites, unfortunately the instinct to jerk back is as strong as her instinct to bite. Doh. I hope I haven't hurt her. I can't even feel her bite me, she's way too small, I just see her do it. :rolleyes: I'm starting to wonder if she has a bit of brain damage. She has always shaken her head back and forth when confused or trying to decide where to move to, more at the beginning when she was weak. Is this normal? I was wondering if this was vitamin deficiency. I've seen her have what I would suspect is a slight seizure twice. She shakes and seems kind of spastic when over excited.

[ConcinusMan]

I think you just ended up with some sort of spastic weird snake, I dunno. Never heard of such a garter before. Maybe for that reason alone, you should keep her around.

[gregmonsta]

Eisenia fetida-I thought those were toxic :confused:Eisenia foetida - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eisenia_foetida)

They are ... I first met them when I had my first two ribbons ... they ate them and then almost immediately regurged them ... also, when I got back into the hobby, the checkered I ordered came with a tub of worms ... I assumed them to be safe as I'd gotten them from an exotics shop but on closer inspection they appeared remarkably similar to the previous offenders ... offered one worm .... same result!

Stay away from red wrigglers!

[ConcinusMan]

Interesting. I had actually never heard of that. I raised many clutches of neotate concinnus on a diet consisting of about half worms. Probably 60/40 red wigglers/night crawlers. They never regergitated a meal of worms, even if it was all red wigglers. It's just that they were abundant in my yard and and an easy to get source of food. I even fed them to adult ordinoides. Never had any obvious problems. Could be my "red wigglers" were this species, and possibly safe: Eisenia andrei - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eisenia_andrei)

They were ALWAYS found in leaf litter compost. Being worried about the contents of the worms' stomachs, I also always fasted them to clear the stuff out of their guts before feeding them to my snakes. But hey, thanks for the heads up on that. I think I'll avoid any red worms altogether from now on, just to be safe.

[guidofatherof5]

`I think I'll avoid any red worms altogether from now on, just to be safe.


Very wise decision. We have too many safe alternatives when it comes to feeding. It's in their best interest if we provide the safest possible food for them. Sometimes it's not the most convenient or economical but we take the extra steps for them.:)
They don't care as many if not most of mine would like a bowl of minnows every night. I just want them around for as long as possible.

[ssssnakeluvr]

concinnus may be resistant to the toxins....I have read they are resistant to certain newt toxins... won't feed them to any just to be safe!

[ConcinusMan]

For about the first 5 or 6 years of my pair's life, I fed them lot's of fish containing that thiamine enzyme, including pieces of red snapper! Never saw any symptoms of anything, but I still stopped that as soon as I found out. When I found out, goldfish weren't on the bad list. They still continued to get those pretty regularly throughout their lives. The toxic worms, the bad fish, you name it, they got it. Still lived to be 18 and 21. Still, even at that, I see no reason at all NOT to abstain from those foods from now on with my next pair, given that there are plenty of "good" foods for them to eat. TKS for the info.

[confused]

Anyone think another garter buddy that was more mellow might do her some good?

[guidofatherof5]

Absolutely. I've had strike happy ones calm down very quickly when place in a group of calm ones. I've also done it on an individual bases. I've never gotten the opposite effect. The more jumpy snake always calms down. I think you've got a good idea there.

[confused]

Thanks! Can I keep mixed species together or do I need to find another eastern?

Also, lol, now looking for a small, mellow eastern, preferably male. :D

[drache]

you can mix species (of garters) as long as you don't mix genders or sizes

[guidofatherof5]

Thanks! Can I keep mixed species together or do I need to find another eastern?

Also, lol, now looking for a small, mellow eastern, preferably male. :D


Mixed can be fine as long as they are same sex and about the same size. According to other member and somethings I've read, I would be concerned about housing any of my snakes with a Thamnophis elegans vagrans (Wandering Garter snake) for fear of cannibalism.
My two main snakes are T.radix and T.s.parietalis. In both I can say the females are the calmest. My males that are housed together are not near as calm as my females.

[confused]

Well, then change that to a small friendly female of just about any species! :D

[mustang]

treat all illnesses and handle her everyday w/o glove shell stop biting u eventually....i know i make it sound so easy and so much fun :)

[confused]

She has given me a few days of being nice again.

Tried the guppy trick again in a 1 gallon enclosure or so. She watched it for 30 minutes. It flipped out and landed on her head and stuck. She just sat there looking like "what are you doing to me". The guppy survived so far.

[confused]

Well, I think she is ready to hibernate, or she is sick. Her gut is empty and she is sleeping all day. Won't even take a worm now, she just looks at it.'

Sigh, I don't have any place to put her at all. :( Any advice?

[ConcinusMan]

King snake food. I'm only kidding. could be she needs a chill. Probably wouldn't hurt. Assuming she's not sick of course. The behaviors you are so concerned about wouldn't really get to me. A snake is a snake. It's not always going to be fully active, feeding and in a good mood.

[confused]

I know enough about reptiles to know that when a snake that was half dead 2 months ago and had a voracious appetite suddenly changes her behavior 100% and stops eating for the better part of a month besides a few snacks (plus she is not showing any sign of activity whatsoever for a week), its trying to tell me something. She's not going to die, she just needs proper care, which I am trying to find info on. I have no good place to brumate her. Whats next?

[drache]

I have no good place to brumate her.
depending on where you live, you might be able to come up with a creative solution for that
what have the outdoor temps been like where you are?

[ConcinusMan]

I was sort of lucky I guess. I had a huge uninsulated add-on room to my house. It reflected changes in temperature that occur outside, while at the same time, gave me some degree of control with air conditioning/heating. Simply turning off the heat in the dead of winter, and closing it off from the rest of the house resulted in 40-60 winter temps. I moved before my pair died, and at the new house, I put them in the attached garage in winter and monitored them closely. I knew a few other snake breeders that converted outdoor rabbit/pigeon enclosures for brumating quarters.

@ Confused: In the interest of staying on topic, I wanted to note that I recently acquired a healthy adult milk snake that defies what I would expect her to behave like. Sometimes she clings to the under tank heater for days even though ambient temps are around 70. Other times, she stays on the cool side for days even if the room is only 65.(she even did that after eating a large meal!) Sometimes she's quite active, and other times she hides for days and won't come out. But she's not a garter, and I have only kept kings, this is my first milk.

I wouldn't be so sure that your garter isn't going to die. With the exception of the bad attitude, she's behaving like the 3 garters that died of old age under my care, and behaving much like a fatally wounded gopher snake I had.(she had internal injuries and took months to die). Not drawing any conclusions though.

I don't know what else to say. The only other thing I can suggest is that if you can afford it, and you care enough, take her to a vet that is knowledgeable about snakes and is willing to do some tests. Fecal analysis can rule out parasites and/or problems related to internal organ functions.

[ConcinusMan]

I really don't think she's dying. Didn't mean for it to sound that way. She looks healthy, and I highly doubt she was half-dead 2 months ago. She looks healthy enough to go a month or two with no food at all. She's pretty fat. I think you're expecting too much from her to expect her to eat so often, or to behave in a certain way. Also, I wouldn't bother with the vet thing unless the snake was highly valuable. Set aside your preconceived notions of how much she should eat and how she should behave. Provide her with her basic needs and monitor her physical health. I think you are worrying to much.

[confused]

depending on where you live, you might be able to come up with a creative solution for that
what have the outdoor temps been like where you are?

Strangely oddly warm. About 50 degrees in the day and 30 at night. Within a week or two it will be down to about 30/20. Followed by about 20/10 within a few more weeks. The coldest room in the house stays in the 60-70 range and the entire thing is heated. I have a garage that stays at ambient temps (freezing).

If I can't get her to eat in a week or two, shes going to sleep. I don't want to buy her her own fridge, i doubt I can afford one stable enough for her to be in safely. I am kinda sad, because I fear the worst putting her into slumber, she is tiny, though healthier I think. She was so hungry when I found her she would eat pork, yes I know this isn't garter food, it was fresh and organic the night I found her, so I offered it and she took it. She ate her weight x10 in fish in a few weeks so she is better than she was by tons. Guess she will tell me whats best.

If I don't brumate her and she doesn't eat enough what will happen? (lol, I hope thats not the obvious answer)


She just sleeps all day now. If I pull her out she seems active, but she is friendly, which I take as a bad sign, she only does that on a totally emptty gut, no striking for two weeks again. (or whenever she bit me a ton in one day and I posted about it)

[confused]

I jinxed myself, she bit me almost as soon as I hit submit on the thread. :D

[guidofatherof5]

She's just keeping you in line and making sure you know who the boss is.:D

[ConcinusMan]

Never had a garter that continued to bite beyond the first day or two. I think she just hates you!

[drache]

If you have a garage with outside temps, you can rig something in a relatively small space
I put my snakes in tanks that are lined with that blue styrofoam insulation, filled with a deep substrate (aspen or carefresh), have an ample damp moss hide in addition to a good-size water bowl, and several cork and styrofoam slabs to crawl under; then I tent the entire set-up with space blankets, making sure there are spacers on top of the tanks, and monitored heat pads outside, or one of those little oil-filled electric heaters that have a good thermostat and do low settings
once the space is enclosed, it takes astoundingly little heat to maintain good temps, and space blankets are pretty safe (and low cost)
I've tented a group of six tanks that way one year, making a little tent I could duck into
it takes a bunch of monitoring in the beginning when you set it up, and some checking and upkeep if there's wind, but basically the idea is to create a little "personal" climate for them with insulation
it's not that hard finding free or cheap insulation materials either

[guidofatherof5]

If you have a garage with outside temps, you can rig something in a relatively small space
I put my snakes in tanks that are lined with that blue styrofoam insulation, filled with a deep substrate (aspen or carefresh), have an ample damp moss hide in addition to a good-size water bowl, and several cork and styrofoam slabs to crawl under; then I tent the entire set-up with space blankets, making sure there are spacers on top of the tanks, and monitored heat pads outside, or one of those little oil-filled electric heaters that have a good thermostat and do low settings
once the space is enclosed, it takes astoundingly little heat to maintain good temps, and space blankets are pretty safe (and low cost)
I've tented a group of six tanks that way one year, making a little tent I could duck into
it takes a bunch of monitoring in the beginning when you set it up, and some checking and upkeep if there's wind, but basically the idea is to create a little "personal" climate for them with insulation
it's not that hard finding free or cheap insulation materials either

Rhea,
You've got to post a few photos of that set-up. Sounds great and I know I'd like to see it. Maybe step by step photos to help us visual learners.
You can do it when you are trying to figure out what to do with all your free time:D

[confused]

Never had a garter that continued to bite beyond the first day or two. I think she just hates you!

Apparently she has gone emo, she has been striking at herself too! Her rear has surprised her coming around my fingers twice lately, and pow! :eek: She bit herself, it was pretty funny, and kinda sad.

Good news, I raised her temp and light hours, and have been harassing her and making sure she is awake. I was rewarded with a snake with a healthy appetite again. I think I woke her up, fingers crossed I can keep her in this spot for awhile. She gives me the "where the hell is my food stare" now, and is active all day. I'm so relieved for the moment.

[guidofatherof5]

Good news, I raised her temp and light hours, and have been harassing her and making sure she is awake. I was rewarded with a snake with a healthy appetite again. I think I woke her up, fingers crossed I can keep her in this spot for awhile. She gives me the "where the hell is my food stare" now, and is active all day. I'm so relieved for the moment.

You've created a monster:eek:

[ConcinusMan]

Well I'll say it again. You just got one of those rare individuals that just doesn't adapt well to human interaction. You got a biter. Not surprising though, that appetite/sleeping/hiding is affected by day length/ temperature. That's perfectly normal. It doesn't harm the snake to get cooled down and eat less for a while. Garters have evolved to do just that. Inactive and not feeding, up to 9 months a year for northernmost garters. I don't know where your relief is coming from, or where your worrying about inactivity and no appetite is coming from. Those two things are normal!

[confused]

You've created a monster:eek:

Hehe, nah. She is really a sweetie. If there is no one around she will hang out with/on me for hours now with no drama. However, if she sees movement that isn't me, something is probably going to get bit. I feel bad waking her up, but, I think considering how weak she was a few months ago, she has a better chance awake for now. Maybe I am wrong, but the temps are pretty extreme up here for me to feel safe with a home built brumater. I'm just too sloppy to get it right first time.

[confused]

I'm really sad. She managed to break out somehow, I'm sure I am to blame, but there was no gap I could see and she had three large books weighing down her lid. She jumped about 18 inches or so onto a wood floor, I just hope she is ok.

The good news: If she makes it through the winter qithout being caught she is where she wants to be. lol. I found where she is, she went right back to where we caught her, near my other computer under the floorboards. Easy access spot right there. I left flour trails and fish for her to eat. She left me a nice trail and ate the fish when my back was turned for 5 minutes, literally. So I put her lamp, some food and water, her heating pad and a few hides she likes in the area, and I am going to pray. I also have a wireless video camera on the area I can switch to on the tv and check every so often. Keep her in your thoughts.

Things have been going so well. =(

(it's kind of ironic, my girlfriend was complaining about sharing space with the snake this morning, her exact words were, "I never wanted a snake in the first place!". Well, now the snake is living "in" her computer desk again. ha!)

[confused]

Cheeky bugger ate another fish helping when I wasn't watching for ten minutes! I wish I had a vhs tape so I could verify I wasn't feeding a mouse or something. No mouse tracks, just smeared flour everywhere.

[ConcinusMan]

Hmmm.. fishy smell, smeared flour, and a snake on the loose. GF must be overjoyed!

[drache]

hey - you got yourself a free roaming snake
we've got a tortoise free roaming the house over the winter
it's okay as long as you don't have carpeting

[drache]

Rhea,
You've got to post a few photos of that set-up. Sounds great and I know I'd like to see it. Maybe step by step photos to help us visual learners.
You can do it when you are trying to figure out what to do with all your free time:D
my camera is out of commission, but I could use my cell - even make a video - but then I wouldn't know how to get it onto the computer
I suppose I could text it to someone more tech savvy

[confused]

I am starting to think there is more than one snake under there, or a mouse. I would think something was eating the flour it is so thoroughly smeared but piles not by the entrance aren't really touched. Three helpings of fish disappeared over the night, sushi at best would only eat a half a serving (only thing there I can think of if it is her is she just hated captivity that much) with all the flour smeared everywhere in two connecting entrances to the floor/wall space.

[ConcinusMan]

Time to get a rat snake or gopher snake and turn it loose in the house!

[confused]

We already have milk snakes in the walls, I found one dead who got stuck to tape, and I saw a brown something or other about adult garter size so I would hope they feast on any rodents.

[ConcinusMan]

ooooh, not good for Mr. garter. It's quite possible that he could become lunch for one of those milk snakes. Are you referring to eastern milk snakes? I wouldn't mind having one of those in a red phase.

[guidofatherof5]

Keep us posted on this mystery eater:D

[confused]

no more signs of her. :(

I will keep trying, but realistically, my house is one big hiding spot. I have base board steam pipe heating, which leaves a perfect hiding trough I cant access all the way around every room. There will be plenty for her to eat I am sure. I have seen three other garters IN my house. What more needs to be said?

A few things in retrospect;

1. She had brain or vision problems. I have been watching the videos you guys post, and she moved her head side to side before she would move. Like, she was dancing to bad techno with a head shake. Every time. I am going to guess her dimensional vision was way off. She was malnourished, maybe she can get a better diet. She would not eat food with vitamin powder on it.

2. She is probably better off, she was released where she was caught, 6 feet to the left, I would have never done that, released her back into my house.

I will miss her. A whole lot more then I realized.

[ConcinusMan]

I'm thinkin' maybe she was blind in one eye, or one eye had poor muscle control. The head shakin' thing is done to get depth perception. If one eye can't quite see, the back and forth thing helps to get an idea of distance to an object she's looking at. Heck, even some snakes that see just fine will do that if both eyes can't see forward at the same time. ALL coluber constrictors(Western Racers) I ever kept (all short term) did that, and so did my Rubber boas and some lizards at feeding time. Never saw a garter do that though.

I would be willing to bet that if all those "base board steam pipe heating" or all sources of heat(outside of your walls) were eliminated, and then you turn on a space heater,(away from, and not pointed at walls) and the shower to "steam up" your living areas on a cold night, and dim the lights, those snakes would follow the heat and moisture to end up in your living areas. In other words, they would come out, attracted to the heat and moisture.

If you try that, and happen to come across an attractive red phase eastern milk snake, or any U.S. native milk, it wouldn't break my heart if you held onto it for me. Remember, come spring, I will be surrounded by awesome T.s. concinnus and ordinoides. Ehem.