sad news(and hopes for a new beginning)

[Herps 4 Life]

1.bad news

Hi everyone,
I have to bring a sad update. bad news.
Remember the little T.pulchrilatus? A couple of weeks ago I checked on him one morning to find him just... dead.:(:(:( I felt really bad for the little one; I felt so demoralized I didn't even came here to post, sorry!!! It was all apparently going good and then suddently just to end up like this! I'm still not shure about what killed him, but if this has to be a harsh lesson for a beginner then I must learn to avoid it happening again in the future. So, I want to ask you guys an opinion on what could had possibly gone wrong. Here is some information, I hope it can help.
As I said all was apparently going well,the little one was regaining weigth, but in the last days I noticed a significant decrease in activity. The weather wasn't particularly hot, not more than usual at least. Untill that moment I was feeding him a couple of small guppies at time, but then I decided he could take on a bigger(medium sized) one. It had no problem eating it. Then, two days later, the morning I found him dead I first noticed the presence of the regurgitated guppy; well, at least I think it was regurgitated but the tail half of the fish seemed reduced to just...poo. There was other material with the same consistance scattered around the tank. The little guy was in his hidebox, lying completely upside down, with the belly facing the ceiling. Such a sad wiew..:( Now, remember I had mentioned in another post about the little deformity I had found on his back? Well, in the belly portion EXACTLY under that deformation there was an underskin dark-looking stain(hemorrhage?). About this little bulk, I've noiced it first when he loosed weigth afther the first two weeks without feeding. I thougth it was some skeletal malformation(from calcium deficency,or by getting hurt someway before i bougth him,etc..) but when the snake started to regain weigth, for a couple of days it looked to me like it had "grown" a little, but i thinked it was just an impression of mine. I have some photos here to help, they were taken during the little one's last week before it died, sorry if they are not too clear:

So,could this have something to do with it? spinal malformation,injury,internal parasite or what else? any thougths?

-I am going to split this topic in 2 parts to avoid creating another thread and to spare some space in the threads, I will start part 2(about the new beginning) when I think I have it clear with part 1..
Thanks for any reply!

[CRIKEY!]

You have my sincerest condolences. :( I wish I could help. Please keep us posted.

[guidofatherof5]

I'm very sorry to hear about your loss. Finding them that way is so disturbing.
I think you are right in your assumption that the kink in the back may has played a part in his death. Sounds like some developmental issue or possibly a tumor.
It sounds like that area may have caused a blockage leading to his death.
Once again I'm very sorry to hear about his passing.

[drache]

so sorry for your loss
it does sound like he may have had some kind of blockage, likely a result of that kink
there probably wasn't anything you could have done

[ephemerata]

so sorry to hear about your loss

I can't say what the bump is but my snake has similar multiple bumps - not hard, they are soft tissue - and is not eating. Read the post "not eating - calcium?" and maybe you can compare what is happening with my snake for similar symptoms and what the vet has ruled out...however i don't pretend to know why or what and what to pursue to help my own

sorry again, when a snake squirms into your heart it can be very hard to lose them or watch them slowly starve

[ssssnakeluvr]

sorry for your loss. the dark spot on the belly is normal when snakes die, I see it all the time...I think the gall bladder degrades quickly after death and causes quick necrosis in the surrounding tissues.

[gregmonsta]

Sorry for your loss :(

[mustang]

sorry for your loss , tumor or a birth defect either way it dosnt matter you made his last few days a lot more enjoyable...at least you know he aint in any more pain

[jitami]

I'm so sorry. Finding him that way must have been horrible. I agree with the others, though. It doesn't seem like anything you could have avoided. Again, so sorry...

[Herps 4 Life]

Thank you for the kindness, I was very attached to the little guy; not only he was my first garter but also my very first snake! Not really the best way to start...:( So you think that could have killed him?
As it was my first experience I'm still a bit obsessed if I've done something wrong caring for him after all, do you see something wrong from my welcome thread? I was still housing him in the same conditions, and feeding him SMALL sized guppies every second day. So, did that last bigger(but still medium) sized guppy contributed?

[guidofatherof5]

I can't imagine that larger guppy causing its death. I would say that was a coincidence.
Speaking for myself I can say I'm on a learning curve with my snakes. I'm alway learning and observing new things about them. I don't think that will ever change.
Your feelings for your snake are refreshing. They do have a way of getting into our hearts. My hopes are that you will get another, soon.
This forum is a great place to learn. So many of the members have that feeling in their hearts for their snakes.
I think the love we have for them only helps us to care for them more and pushes us to do all we can for the few that enter our lives.
A little Garter snake bit me in the heart when I was only 5. 45 years later the poison is still infecting me.
My daughter Gabby has been biten and I can only hope the wonderful poison infects her for the rest of her life.



Thank you for the kindness, I was very attached to the little guy; not only he was my first garter but also my very first snake! Not really the best way to start...:( So you think that could have killed him?
As it was my first experience I'm still a bit obsessed if I've done something wrong caring for him after all, do you see something wrong from my welcome thread? I was still housing him in the same conditions, and feeding him SMALL sized guppies every second day. So, did that last bigger(but still medium) sized guppy contributed?

[Herps 4 Life]

2. Don't want to give up

Glad to hear that Steve :)
As for getting a new one, after I've lost my little joy I couldn't help but take it as a personal failure, with all the frustration that comes along. Still, I want to try one more time. But the fact is, I have some serious doubts about buying another T. pulchrilatus. First, I have done research, but it seems it is an almost unknown snake. I mean, I couldn't find any useful information apart from maximum size registered, distribution, hypothetical(-what!?) habitat, some rare photos and inexistent or unknown reported presence in the trade!!! Along with that, as one of the common names implies(mexico highland garter snake) it's a highland species(in fact, mine seemed happier on cooler days), and from what I've read about other reptiles it seems that tropical mountain species may be more delicate or challenging to keep properly in captivity.. So I'm not shure afther that if this garters could still be suitable for beginners... Any opinions on this? Ironically, they seem the garter more commonly found in stores around here! All the snakes I could find where occasional cornsnakes, kingsnakes, lampropeltis, small boids, burmese, reticulated(!) and ball phytons plus LOTS of boa constictor but... NOT ONE SINGLE NORTH AMERICAN GARTER!!!!! Just these little guys, wich I can presume are ALL wildcoughts. But a few days ago, in the same petshop where I've buyed my previous snake I spotted two of this garters(pics below): they seem a very different snake, they are more heavily builded(or just fatty:D) and somewhat less slender than the "standard".. Yeah, I know, they are no beauty compared to the pulchrilatus :rolleyes: but I don't really care about it, all I just want is to have a nice, happy, and healthy garter in the end!
But guess what? I can't seem to be able to identify them! Does anyone know what they are?? (hey Don,still have that garter snake book over there?;))

[Herps 4 Life]

...any advice ? :confused:

[gregmonsta]

Does look like a southern species again :rolleyes: can't be sure which one. I would also think it could be another WC. A better lit picture could help ... one of the southern marcianus :confused: or scaliger :confused: ... ;) try to get a better photo if you can.

[Herps 4 Life]

eh eh, they were taken with a phone, sorry...:rolleyes:
Here is one again, I've tryed to get it brighter but it's still bad...:( The snake was pretty dark anyway, the first time I've seen it I hardly noticed the line and blotches. Yeah, I'm sure it's a WC too however that specimen was a really calm one, it not even got frightened by opening the jar(yes they still have that bad habit of keeping garters in plastic jars in that store!!!:mad:)

[Stefan-A]

Does look like a southern species again :rolleyes: can't be sure which one. I would also think it could be another WC. A better lit picture could help ... one of the southern marcianus :confused: or scaliger :confused: ... ;) try to get a better photo if you can.
Does indeed look like T. scaliger, at least to me. It resembles T. marcianus bovallii a lot.

[Stefan-A]

Time to count supralabial scales. 6 or 7, it's T. scaliger, 8 it's T. marcianus. Additionally, what colour is its tongue, completely black, or black and red?

edit: Judging by that picture of its head, with the last supralabial scales obscured, I'd say 6 or 7, meaning it's probably T. scaliger.

[Herps 4 Life]

Hi!
uhm...unfortunately I couldn't see the tongue...
Yes, it seems like they are 6 or 7.. A scaliger?:confused: ...hmm starting research! :D

[Herps 4 Life]

Oh wow, another garter with almost no information...:rolleyes:
And another mountain species too! But.. I don't know, in the few (3) photos I could find the head seems to have a different shape, like more elongated, but may be the age.. no? Also the color seems to bee alot brigther in those, but we all know there are geographical variations... Aah, if only MY photos were clearer!!! :mad: However personally, from the body form it gives me the impression that they are not a very aquatic species, like they are not SO agile as others, what do you think?

[Stefan-A]

The head shape is the same as on the one in The Garter Snakes - Evolution and Ecology. It could be the age, the gender, or just variation. The coloration, too.

[Herps 4 Life]

I think I'll go for it. Over here it's the end of the "garter season" at least for juveniles, and looking around, it seems like he/she (not good yet at sexing) is the last garter in the entire city!:eek: -I think next opportunity would be next year... Besides that, it looks in good shape too! I've checked on him/her this morning and the superlabial scales seem to be 7 so it could be a scaliger. He/she also shed skin yesterday, and now looks indeed more brigther! So now the last thing I was thinking about was if I should think of it more like a temperate climate garter, considering the habitat where it theorically lives..

[gregmonsta]

Scaliger is reported as living in desert scrublands and oak forests. Check the climate of the centre of the Mexican Mesa Central ;)

[Herps 4 Life]

And finally, some (almost)decent pics!
In the end I brought him/her home friday:), I took the photos just before putting it in the enclosure.
From deserts to oak? wow,that's quite a range of habitats.. At least it means they are adaptable! I've found it's also reported as present near pine tree. It seems to be not afraid of humans - that is, untill they stay one the other side of the glass...:rolleyes:
Are 5 days of rest fine before starting with the handling?? or should I wait more?:confused:

[Quibble]

Hmm, Interesting. My snake had a lump/kink very similar to this, and just passed away today. Sorry to hear about your loss, I know how you feel.

[mtolypetsupply]

Herps 4 Life,

Sorry to hear about your loss, and thrilled to hear you've gotten another!!!

I think it's great that you have very different species available to you than do we here in the States. I know you want success with keeping a snake, but once your confidence is up (you'll do great with this one, I'd bet), please get some more of the less common, VERY interesting species!!!!

Looking forward to hearing more about your new baby!!!

:)
Stephi

[ssssnakeluvr]

I'd say its a scaliger also. very nice.....wish we had some of them here.... :(

[Herps 4 Life]

Thank you all :D
And yeah, surely (whith more experience) I'd love to try again in the future with T.pulchrilatus, that species had already gained a little place in my heart you know...:rolleyes: But meanwhile, I'm happy with my new guy(or girl:confused:) and I would indeed prefer practicing with more common species before that..;)
- Oh, and about that handling thing?

[gregmonsta]

5days to a week seems like a good grace period. :) then you can start working on introductions (mind you ... when changing water, etc you could always leave your hand in the tank for a couple of minutes ... your new friend might just get curious ;) )