View Full Version : Not new to Thams, but new here!
Mike Spencer
09-28-2009, 05:11 PM
Hey everyone. I'm Mike. I'm a herper/breeder from Northern California. Thamnophis and Crotalus sp. make up a huge part of my herping interest and the only breeding I'm doing right now is with a few sirtalis spp.
I am currently working with T. s. pickeringi and T. s. concinnus including Anerys.
Here are a few of my animals:
This is a trio of T. s. concinnus (Redspotted garters) that I had on display at the Sacramento show last weekend. The two on the left are normal females, while the one on the right is my male Anery.
http://i81.photobucket.com/albums/j201/MikeMikeUxWxC/102_0988.jpg
This girl is the pride of my collection and I'm hoping she'll be ready to breed come spring. The pictures really do her no justice. I had her on display as well last weekend, and as far as I know, I'm the only one in the US working with Anery concinnus.
http://i81.photobucket.com/albums/j201/MikeMikeUxWxC/TSCON1.jpg
I have a few more pics of some of my normals and I have a gorgeous trio of Pugets that I need to get pics of soon.
Stefan-A
09-28-2009, 05:33 PM
Welcome aboard.
Snakers
09-28-2009, 05:33 PM
very beautiful snakes glad you joined this forum
guidofatherof5
09-28-2009, 05:38 PM
Great looking snakes.
sirtalis01
09-28-2009, 06:03 PM
sweet..the anery is kool...
Charis
09-28-2009, 06:19 PM
Welcome! Awesome snakes, the last one is especially pretty! Definitely need pics of the Pugets!
GarterGeek
09-28-2009, 07:03 PM
Welcome!:D Beautiful snakes.
count dewclaw
09-28-2009, 07:03 PM
Welcome, welcome! :D
Mike Spencer
09-28-2009, 08:20 PM
Thanks everyone!
I'll have pics of everyone else pretty soon. I just picked got my Pugets yesterday so I haven't had time to track down a camera yet (all my photo stuff got stolen a couple months ago) but hopefully within the next couple days I'll have stuff up.
bkhuff1s
09-29-2009, 09:38 AM
The anary looks like my puget to some degree... wonder if there's a relationship there somewhere
jitami
09-29-2009, 02:04 PM
Welcome :)
ConcinusMan
09-29-2009, 02:59 PM
Nice. The two normal concinnus look pretty typical of the one's found in my area (Clark Co. WA). Recently lost my female. She died after giving birth. She was around 24 years old (I had her for 21)and roughly 3 1/2 feet long. You said the two normals are females but I have to disagree. That long thin one with his tail at the top of the picture is most definitely male. I too once had a melanistic ordinoides. If one is patient, they can be found in my area. Perhaps one in a few thousand is melanistic in this area. I've even found a few that look strikingly like T. marcianus.
Great to have another T. concinnus fan with us.
Mike Spencer
09-30-2009, 01:15 AM
The anary looks like my puget to some degree... wonder if there's a relationship there somewhere
The anerys are locality specific and it is quite a bit south of Puget range. I have pugets too, and there are definitely differences. In person, the anery is a mint green, as opposed to a bluish hue.
Mike Spencer
09-30-2009, 01:48 AM
Nice. The two normal concinnus look pretty typical of the one's found in my area (Clark Co. WA). Recently lost my female. She died after giving birth. She was around 24 years old (I had her for 21)and roughly 3 1/2 feet long. You said the two normals are females but I have to disagree. That long thin one with his tail at the top of the picture is most definitely male. I too once had a melanistic ordinoides. If one is patient, they can be found in my area. Perhaps one in a few thousand is melanistic in this area. I've even found a few that look strikingly like T. marcianus.
Great to have another T. concinnus fan with us.
To be honest, when I first got her, I thought she too was a male. But she probed to be female that year, and she is a proven breeder, therefore making her 100% female. She is the same girl I listed in the classifieds, but I just sold her today to a friend and marked it as sold.
She is from Multnomah Co. Oregon stock while the female on the left is from a Polk Co. Oregon bloodline.
ConcinusMan
09-30-2009, 04:21 AM
Female? you must be kidding me! are you serious? are we talking about the same snake? The one with the tail at the topmost part of the picture? No way! Are you sure you didn't get that one mixed up with another snake? If what you're saying is true, and that snake is confirmed to have actually given birth, I'm blown away. Forget about probing. Not accurate or even necessary with this garter, but confirmed female? Forgive me, but I don't believe it. There has to be some mistake. It couldn't be more obviously male if it if it were dragging it's testicles and hemipenes (can I say that without getting into trouble?) behind it.
The Multnomah County, Oregon origin I have no doubt about. He looks just like the male that I had for about 20 years (wild-collected in Clark Co. Wa) and he looks just like any other typical male found in Multnomah or Clark counties. I also have no doubt as to the origin of the obvious female, as her mostly orange head/face is typical of Oregon and CA individuals found farther south such as those found in Polk Co., Benton Co., Oregon, and perhaps coastal northern CA.
BTW, females (and males) of those two (clark, multnomah) counties also have a mostly black head with blue-green neck and just a faint spot of orange on the largest upper labial scales. Some of the offspring produced by my Clark Co. pair and observed wild adults, also have indistinct side stripes which are atypical and usually only found on females.
In all these years, I have never been wrong about the sex of T. ordinoides, T.s. concinnus, or T. sirtalis, based only on examining the snakes or seeing a clear photograph as long as they were close to sexual maturity. No probing needed. If that is indeed a female, I'm thrilled to be blown away. First time for everything I guess.
All that said, I'm also thrilled and blown away to see, in one place, (this forum) in such a short time, more than one person other than myself, that keeps T. s. concinnus. All these years, and I've been online since around 1994, I never stumbled across anyone else who had this subspecies of T. sirtalis. I chocked it up to the limited range of the subspecies. Honestly, I came here because I am missing my babies. I must go out next spring and get a pair of youngsters and start all over for another 20 years enjoyment. Having a great time. Thanks for sharing!
gregmonsta
09-30-2009, 04:51 AM
All that said, I'm also thrilled and blown away to see, in one place, (this forum) in such a short time, more than one person other than myself, that keeps T. s. concinnus.
How can you not love that red and black contrast :rolleyes: ... I've got a het anery male and I'm picking up a het female for him in 11 days :D
ConcinusMan
09-30-2009, 05:25 AM
You must forgive me for being so naive. I really don't know what you mean by "het" other than heterosexual. I also had never heard of a "anery" T.s. concinnus until this thread. I know what you mean by "anery" I had just never known that there was such a thing for T.s. concinnnus. I tend to think that this "anery" is nothing more than a T. sirtalis with a pattern similar to concinnus. That's not so unusual. I've seen T. sirtalis in my area with a similar spotted pattern on the sides but habitat and habits distinguished these individuals from concinnus even though they often share the same habitat.
I have never seen an anerythristic T.s. concinnus in the wild and I've seen thousands of concinnus in the wild, over the years. Not even a melanistic or any other atypical one other than being very faint in color overall, and perhaps the oddball or two with distinct atypical latteral stripes or nearly all black with barely any orange spots, but I had chocked that up to intergrades with T. sirtalis. How are we sure that this "anery" is really concinnus? Someone enlighten me.
gregmonsta
09-30-2009, 05:55 AM
You must forgive me for being so naive. I really don't know what you mean by "het" other than heterosexual. I also had never heard of a "anery" T.s. concinnus until this thread. I know what you mean by "anery" I had just never known that there was such a thing for T.s. concinnnus. I tend to think that this "anery" is nothing more than a T. sirtalis with a pattern similar to concinnus. That's not so unusual. I've seen T. sirtalis in my area with a similar spotted pattern on the sides but habitat and habits distinguished these individuals from concinnus even though they often share the same habitat.
I have never seen an anerythristic T.s. concinnus in the wild and I've seen thousands of concinnus in the wild, over the years. Not even a melanistic or any other atypical one other than being very faint in color overall, and perhaps the oddball or two with distinct atypical latteral stripes or nearly all black with barely any orange spots, but I had chocked that up to intergrades with T. sirtalis. How are we sure that this "anery" is really concinnus? Someone enlighten me.
:rolleyes: Maybe it's because the phenotype appears to be concinnus and because the prevalent DNA genotype on the west coast is concinnus (http://www.faculty.virginia.edu/brodie/edb3pdfs/Janzen%20et%20al%20ME%202002.pdf) ;)
I don't think it can be debated that this is an anery concinnus - http://www.schlangenauge.ch/concinus.pdf ...
One of our European members has one (father of my concinnus)
http://gallery.dierenparadijs.be/data/500/medium/202_0251_klein.JPG
Definately concinnus ... definately anery :p
Stefan-A
09-30-2009, 07:26 AM
Definately concinnus ... definately anery :p
Hypo-, maybe. But not an-. :D Or did you mean the one in the necropsy?
drache
09-30-2009, 10:01 AM
welcome to the forum, Mike
I've got some concinnus also
mine just are the regular beautiful black and red with yellow dorsal stripe and blue underside kinds
Charis
09-30-2009, 10:35 AM
You must forgive me for being so naive. I really don't know what you mean by "het" other than heterosexual.
Most snake morphs are reccessive, needing a matched pair of genes, one from the mother & one from the father to show the phenotype. One having that matched set would be called homozygous, or homo. One carrying one normal gene & one, say anery gene, would look normal, but it would be possible for that snake to have offspring that show the phenotype, if it is bred to a homo snake or another snake carrying a normal & anery gene. Having the two different genes is called heterozygous, but is mostly shortened to hetero or just het. So I have two corn snakes that are homo charcoal & homo hypo, making them phantoms, but they are also possibly het for amel. If that makes sense.:o
gregmonsta
09-30-2009, 12:01 PM
Hypo-, maybe. But not an-. :D Or did you mean the one in the necropsy?
The one in the necropsy for sure :rolleyes: ... Hans' comes close though ... would that be Hypo-anerystic? ... or shall we call it a low-red :rolleyes: ... or 'green phase' lol :D ... too confusing, I know. But it definately is a red-diminishing trait ;)
Stefan-A
09-30-2009, 02:09 PM
would that be Hypo-anerystic? ... or shall we call it a low-red :rolleyes: ... or 'green phase' lol :D ... too confusing, I know. But it definately is a red-diminishing trait ;)
Hypoerythristic. Hypo- is reduced, an- is lacking.
gregmonsta
09-30-2009, 02:29 PM
:D
Hypoerythristic. Hypo- is reduced, an- is lacking.
:D Cheers
Mike Spencer
09-30-2009, 04:19 PM
Female? you must be kidding me! are you serious? are we talking about the same snake? The one with the tail at the topmost part of the picture? No way! Are you sure you didn't get that one mixed up with another snake? If what you're saying is true, and that snake is confirmed to have actually given birth, I'm blown away. Forget about probing. Not accurate or even necessary with this garter, but confirmed female? Forgive me, but I don't believe it. There has to be some mistake. It couldn't be more obviously male if it if it were dragging it's testicles and hemipenes (can I say that without getting into trouble?) behind it.
The Multnomah County, Oregon origin I have no doubt about. He looks just like the male that I had for about 20 years (wild-collected in Clark Co. Wa) and he looks just like any other typical male found in Multnomah or Clark counties. I also have no doubt as to the origin of the obvious female, as her mostly orange head/face is typical of Oregon and CA individuals found farther south such as those found in Polk Co., Benton Co., Oregon, and perhaps coastal northern CA.
BTW, females (and males) of those two (clark, multnomah) counties also have a mostly black head with blue-green neck and just a faint spot of orange on the largest upper labial scales. Some of the offspring produced by my Clark Co. pair and observed wild adults, also have indistinct side stripes which are atypical and usually only found on females.
In all these years, I have never been wrong about the sex of T. ordinoides, T.s. concinnus, or T. sirtalis, based only on examining the snakes or seeing a clear photograph as long as they were close to sexual maturity. No probing needed. If that is indeed a female, I'm thrilled to be blown away. First time for everything I guess.
All that said, I'm also thrilled and blown away to see, in one place, (this forum) in such a short time, more than one person other than myself, that keeps T. s. concinnus. All these years, and I've been online since around 1994, I never stumbled across anyone else who had this subspecies of T. sirtalis. I chocked it up to the limited range of the subspecies. Honestly, I came here because I am missing my babies. I must go out next spring and get a pair of youngsters and start all over for another 20 years enjoyment. Having a great time. Thanks for sharing!
Time to get blown away, because she is completely female. Both of the normals in that picture are female. I honestly couldn't believe it and got 2nd opinions on her as well, but I got babies from her this year.
It is nice meeting another concinnus fan, and just a little piece of information, but concinnus does not reach into California at all. I've lived in northern CA my entire life and have found 11/13 garter species in the state now, and will have the rest by early next year.
I'll have a lot of babies available next year. I'm sold out this year.
Mike Spencer
09-30-2009, 04:28 PM
You must forgive me for being so naive. I really don't know what you mean by "het" other than heterosexual. I also had never heard of a "anery" T.s. concinnus until this thread. I know what you mean by "anery" I had just never known that there was such a thing for T.s. concinnnus. I tend to think that this "anery" is nothing more than a T. sirtalis with a pattern similar to concinnus. That's not so unusual. I've seen T. sirtalis in my area with a similar spotted pattern on the sides but habitat and habits distinguished these individuals from concinnus even though they often share the same habitat.
I have never seen an anerythristic T.s. concinnus in the wild and I've seen thousands of concinnus in the wild, over the years. Not even a melanistic or any other atypical one other than being very faint in color overall, and perhaps the oddball or two with distinct atypical latteral stripes or nearly all black with barely any orange spots, but I had chocked that up to intergrades with T. sirtalis. How are we sure that this "anery" is really concinnus? Someone enlighten me.
Het stands for heterozygous. It is a term used when you breed an animal showing a recessive trait (which means it's homozygous) with an animal not showing the trait (meaning that it is either normal or het as well). A het animal will be a carrier of the recessive gene, but, as a recessive gene, it willl not be showing. Therefore, it will appear normal, but will carry the gene for the trait. The only way for it to produce offspring that will show the trait is to breed it to either another het (for the same trait) or one that is homozygous (showing the same trait). If you breedtwo hets together, then you 'should' get 1/4 homozygous babies, 1/4 normal babies, and 1/2 normal babies that are het for the gene. Now, because the normals and hets look the same, there is no way to tell the hets from the normals without breeding them out, they these are considered 66% hets, as 2/3 of them 'should' be hets.
If you breed a het to a homozygous animal (again, same traits) the outcome 'should' be 1/2 homozygous and 1/2 hets.
If you breed 2 homozygous animals, you'll get all homozygous animals.
Both of the anerys are WC stock from a locality that I found. I've heard of people trying to say that they are just pickeringi intergrades, but my locality for them is in west central Oregon. Way south of Puget range and I've only seen 3 at this locale out of the couple hundred I've seen this year.
When you say T. sirtalis, could you please be a little more specific? Because sirtalis is only the species name (unless of course you're referring to T. sirtalis sirtalis (eastern garter). Are you talking intergrades with pickeringi? Fitchi?
I only know of one other person who knows my locality where I found them, and I am not in a position to let it be publicly known.
There is a line of Anery concinnus in Europe as well, and I believe there is one in Australia, and they look just like mine... I have a lot of people that agree that mine are anery.
I hope this helped you understand some basic genetics.
aSnakeLovinBabe
09-30-2009, 05:03 PM
Female? you must be kidding me! are you serious? are we talking about the same snake? The one with the tail at the topmost part of the picture? No way! Are you sure you didn't get that one mixed up with another snake? If what you're saying is true, and that snake is confirmed to have actually given birth, I'm blown away. Forget about probing. Not accurate or even necessary with this garter, but confirmed female? Forgive me, but I don't believe it. There has to be some mistake. It couldn't be more obviously male if it if it were dragging it's testicles and hemipenes (can I say that without getting into trouble?) behind it.
Haha, quite honestly, I look at the tail of that snake and see quite an obvious taper, it looks female to me!!! The overall snake has a more male-like shape but it still looks like a female. All of my concinnus males are incredibly bulgey and long and thick at the tail!!! My female concinnus's have decently thick tails, sort of like that snake, but males are very, very obvious. I'm very good at visually sexing thamnophis... I think what is throwing you off, is the severe curve in the tail causing a bit of a thickness illusion!
Mike Spencer
10-01-2009, 01:01 AM
Haha, quite honestly, I look at the tail of that snake and see quite an obvious taper, it looks female to me!!! The overall snake has a more male-like shape but it still looks like a female. All of my concinnus males are incredibly bulgey and long and thick at the tail!!! My female concinnus's have decently thick tails, sort of like that snake, but males are very, very obvious. I'm very good at visually sexing thamnophis... I think what is throwing you off, is the severe curve in the tail causing a bit of a thickness illusion!
You're right on the money. She's definitely female.
It is often tough to sex just from a picture because there could be a number of factors that might make it appear different. Just like the curve you mentioned.
ConcinusMan
10-01-2009, 02:07 AM
Wow thanks everyone for all of the great info. I've been breeding snakes (mostly concinnus garters) and lizards and a few amphibians for many, many years but just as a hobby really so I never learned much about genetics, recessive genes, etc. This has been very informative.
@ aSnakeLovinBabe: Not you too! another concinnus owner? I can't believe it. 15 years ago, hardly any Thamnophis breeder even knew what I was talking about and was totally unfamiliar with the subspecies. Now I'm hearing about concinnus breeders on other continents and I've found so many right here in this forum. Wow. Oh, and it wasn't "thickness" that threw me off. It's the long, thin body and tail that made me think it was male. The overall gradual tapering. Of course, from the photo, I don't have the option of looking underneath to see the distance from vent to tail tip.
@ Mike Spencer. You know, I never even thought about it. I mean, we have T. sirtalis here (like I said, not very common though) that are NOT concinnus but I really don't know what they are. Or at least, they are sirtalis when using ID keys but lack the coloration/pattern of concinnus, and clearly don't fit any other local candidates' descriptions but do fit descriptions of T. sirtalis supposedly only found in the Puget Sound area. I just know that they are sirtalis and NOT any of the other species we have, and that they are NOT concinnus. I suppose I could be mistaken. That's for sure. It's a mess around here with garters. Some are easy to distinquish such as T. s. concinnus and T. ordinoides, but we also have Thamnophis atratus (usually in huge numbers where they are found) Thamnophis elegans, T. couchii, and those are just a few of the top of my head. Jeez, the list goes on. Even more confusing is some of the one's I listed have subspecies living in the same habitat, and there are many individuals that just aren't described or fit a description. It's confusing, that's for sure. Someone at the University of WA suggested to me that our local concinnus having approximately 30% or so with side stripes and almost no red on the sides/head meant that it was likely to intergrade with other sirtalis' but I just didn't agree for some reason I can't think of right now. Oh yeah, now I remember. My pair of concinnus produced a few offspring with lateral stripes even though both parents lacked them.
I did also have a question regarding our local melanistic ordinoides. Is that a trait that can be encouraged/promoted by selective breeding? I don't know how the genes work. I just know that melanistic individuals can be found here, but rarely and that all of my captive bred ordinoides varied greatly in color/pattern even in the same brood.
Mike Spencer
10-01-2009, 02:37 AM
Wow thanks everyone for all of the great info. I've been breeding snakes (mostly concinnus garters) and lizards and a few amphibians for many, many years but just as a hobby really so I never learned much about genetics, recessive genes, etc. This has been very informative.
@ Mike Spencer. You know, I never even thought about it. I mean, we have T. sirtalis here (like I said, not very common though) that are NOT concinnus but I really don't know what they are. Or at least, they are sirtalis when using ID keys but lack the coloration/pattern of concinnus, and clearly don't fit any other local candidates' descriptions but do fit descriptions of T. sirtalis supposedly only found in the Puget Sound area. I just know that they are sirtalis and NOT any of the other species we have, and that they are NOT concinnus. I suppose I could be mistaken. That's for sure. It's a mess around here with garters. Some are easy to distinquish such as T. s. concinnus and T. ordinoides, but we also have Thamnophis atratus (usually in huge numbers where they are found) Thamnophis elegans, T. couchii, and those are just a few of the top of my head. Jeez, the list goes on. Even more confusing is some of the one's I listed have subspecies living in the same habitat, and there are many individuals that just aren't described or fit a description. It's confusing, that's for sure. Someone at the University of WA suggested to me that our local concinnus having approximately 30% or so with side stripes and almost no red on the sides/head meant that it was likely to intergrade with other sirtalis' but I just didn't agree for some reason I can't think of right now. Oh yeah, now I remember. My pair of concinnus produced a few offspring with lateral stripes even though both parents lacked them.
I did also have a question regarding our local melanistic ordinoides. Is that a trait that can be encouraged/promoted by selective breeding? I don't know how the genes work. I just know that melanistic individuals can be found here, but rarely and that all of my captive bred ordinoides varied greatly in color/pattern even in the same brood.
The female in question might look long and skinny to you too because she just gave birth less than a month ago, and is very skinny. She dropped a pretty big clutch for her size. I'm still working on putting her weight back on.
There should 3 T. sirtalis subs in Washington state, I believe. Concinnus, pickeringi (Puget sound), and Fitchi (Valley garters). Depending on range, there can easily be intergrades between any of them, which will make the snakes either share traits from both subspecies or sometimes one sub will just pull some of the discerning traits from the other, making it seem like a whole new snake. For example, there are some ConcinnusXpuget intergrades that are completely lacking red, and only have stripes, but then there are some lacking all of the red, but retaining the red spots, although they are usually muted.
The elegans sp. that is in Washington would be T. e. vagrans. The wandering garter. The Atratus sp. would most likely be T. a. hydrophilus. The Oregon gartersnake. I don't believe that T. couchii live in Washington, but I'm not positive.
As far as Ordinoides, this if my first year working with them but I have too much going on with them to be able to breed them but I'm giving my pair to a friend so he can breed them out for me, because I am trying to figure out if melanism is, in fact, a breedable trait.
I'm going to send you a PM though and talk to you more about concinnus and the other WA garters.
ConcinusMan
10-01-2009, 04:28 AM
I have found a few "wandering garters" similar to this one, but prettier: http://www.nearctica.com/herps/snakes/colubrid/Telegan4.jpg. and, as far as appearances go, you could swear that they were T. marcianus. I just love that checkered pattern. However, I've never found one in Clark Co. WA. I have found them south of Portland, OR and south of Oregon City, OR. and only in certain limited areas. Keep in mind that in my area, they are generally a Willamette Valley snake and I am just north of the north end of that valley.
Also keep in mind that in my experience, ordinoides (besides being a very small snake, even fully grown) generally gives birth to very few offspring. Kind of ironic since it can be found in such huge numbers around here. Even gravid females collected from the wild, and around the size limit, give birth to 3-13 offspring usually no more. I had a pair for some years and the female was only 15 inches (and that's a big one) and she never gave birth to more than 7, but the young were pretty darn big. Also, they tend to breed spring or fall, give birth in late summer or right after emerging from winter rest. The young, although few, are bigger than the young produced by my 3 foot+ T. s. concinnus! So I'm thinking does that make it more difficult to selectively breed them? The few offspring, I mean. I wouldn't even know where to start selecting. They often gave birth to young with colors/patterns that are nothing like either parent.
Mike Spencer
10-01-2009, 09:07 AM
I have found a few "wandering garters" similar to this one, but prettier: http://www.nearctica.com/herps/snakes/colubrid/Telegan4.jpg. and, as far as appearances go, you could swear that they were T. marcianus. I just love that checkered pattern. However, I've never found one in Clark Co. WA. I have found them south of Portland, OR and south of Oregon City, OR. and only in certain limited areas. Keep in mind that in my area, they are generally a Willamette Valley snake and I am just north of the north end of that valley.
Also keep in mind that in my experience, ordinoides (besides being a very small snake, even fully grown) generally gives birth to very few offspring. Kind of ironic since it can be found in such huge numbers around here. Even gravid females collected from the wild, and around the size limit, give birth to 3-13 offspring usually no more. I had a pair for some years and the female was only 15 inches (and that's a big one) and she never gave birth to more than 7, but the young were pretty darn big. Also, they tend to breed spring or fall, give birth in late summer or right after emerging from winter rest. The young, although few, are bigger than the young produced by my 3 foot+ T. s. concinnus! So I'm thinking does that make it more difficult to selectively breed them? The few offspring, I mean. I wouldn't even know where to start selecting. They often gave birth to young with colors/patterns that are nothing like either parent.
That's the thing about ordinoides. They have such a high variance in color and pattern and I'm not sure whether they're able to be selectively bred or whether they just its all just random how they turn out. I've found brown ones, grey ones, greenish once, ones with a single stripe that is yellow, red, white, orange, tri stripes in the same colors, and patternless, so it's just hard to tell what's going on with them. My melanistic is about 15" and my male is about 12. They're not very big snakes at all.
aSnakeLovinBabe
10-02-2009, 04:50 PM
@ aSnakeLovinBabe: Not you too! another concinnus owner? I can't believe it. 15 years ago, hardly any Thamnophis breeder even knew what I was talking about and was totally unfamiliar with the subspecies. Now I'm hearing about concinnus breeders on other continents and I've found so many right here in this forum. Wow. Oh, and it wasn't "thickness" that threw me off. It's the long, thin body and tail that made me think it was male. The overall gradual tapering. Of course, from the photo, I don't have the option of looking underneath to see the distance from vent to tail tip.
oh yes! me too! I own 2.2 concinnus at the moment, 1.2 of those are my high black/reduced pattern project. With those I am aiming to make an all black snake with the bright green stripe and bright red head. My females are almost at that point, but not quite. and 1 is what I call the rainbow male. Concinnus is actually one of the very first subspecies of garter I worked with. Rhea (username Drache) is sending me her Concinnus female who has similar features to my rainbow male, so that we may selectively breed for the most colorful concinnus out there!:D I had a REALLY cool male that had some abberrant-looking splotches of black bleeding all through his normal colors, but sadly I lost him.
ConcinusMan
10-03-2009, 01:56 AM
Oh, that's another thing. You say bright green stripe and many around here do appear that way,(greenish yellow) but many also have a clearly yellow stripe, not greenish at all. Some of the offspring produced by my pair not only varied by a few having lateral stripes, but I saw perhaps 5 offspring in the 21 years that almost completely lacked red on the body, AND lacked lateral stripes. (2 out of 23 last brood) I mean, it was barely there, but the color intensity of what red (actually orange) was there, was normal. The only trait for which I never saw any variation, was the head and underside of the neck coloration. All my snakes had solid black undersides, fading to a light blue-green under the chin/neck and the same color on the upper labials, top of head black and just a faded spot of orange on the largest upper labials. Like this picture: http://www.californiaherps.com/noncal/northwest/nwsnakes/images/tsconcinnussr05head.jpg
When I say that a few have lateral stripes, even among a brood that mostly lacks lateral stripes, from parents that both lack lateral stripes, I mean like this one:
http://www.eitangrunwald.com/MISC/MISCp1_files/Red%20Spotted%20Garter.jpg
I haven't been out looking for snakes in a few years and I am hoping to find several Clark Co. WA concinnus showing various traits, next week when we are expected to have sun and highs in the 70's. If I am successful, I will bring them home, even if only temporarily, so I can get some high quality photos to post. Wish me luck.
Mike Spencer
10-04-2009, 11:39 AM
oh yes! me too! I own 2.2 concinnus at the moment, 1.2 of those are my high black/reduced pattern project. With those I am aiming to make an all black snake with the bright green stripe and bright red head. My females are almost at that point, but not quite. and 1 is what I call the rainbow male. Concinnus is actually one of the very first subspecies of garter I worked with. Rhea (username Drache) is sending me her Concinnus female who has similar features to my rainbow male, so that we may selectively breed for the most colorful concinnus out there!:D I had a REALLY cool male that had some abberrant-looking splotches of black bleeding all through his normal colors, but sadly I lost him.
I saw your 'rainbow' on KS. I believe I commented on it. Gorgeous concinnus. I have one I haven't gotten pics of yet that is rainbowed, but it's washed out as if it is hypo. So I'm gonna breed it out before I make any assumptions about him.
guidofatherof5
10-04-2009, 09:53 PM
Great head photo. Beautiful snake.
aSnakeLovinBabe
10-04-2009, 10:06 PM
I saw your 'rainbow' on KS. I believe I commented on it. Gorgeous concinnus. I have one I haven't gotten pics of yet that is rainbowed, but it's washed out as if it is hypo. So I'm gonna breed it out before I make any assumptions about him.
Thanks! One day I showed him to my brother who instantly said "he looks like a flaming rainbow"... the name stuck and thus he is the rainbow concinnus forever!!!! His lateral stripes are bright teal blue... and the coolest thing is the LIME green on his face, it hurts your eyes! I simply love him!
Three of my concinnus lack lateral stripes. I generally prefer them to be that way. The three that lack lateral stripes have green dorsals, and the rainbow male's is more of a brilliant yellow. Two of them have black stomachs, and rainbow man and one of my high blacks have blue stomachs. I have also seen concinnus with tan, and occasionally white dorsals. They are incredibly variable and don't be surprised when I end up with yet another phenotype of concinnus that I just could not resist!!!
Mike Spencer
10-04-2009, 11:15 PM
Thanks! One day I showed him to my brother who instantly said "he looks like a flaming rainbow"... the name stuck and thus he is the rainbow concinnus forever!!!! His lateral stripes are bright teal blue... and the coolest thing is the LIME green on his face, it hurts your eyes! I simply love him!
Three of my concinnus lack lateral stripes. I generally prefer them to be that way. The three that lack lateral stripes have green dorsals, and the rainbow male's is more of a brilliant yellow. Two of them have black stomachs, and rainbow man and one of my high blacks have blue stomachs. I have also seen concinnus with tan, and occasionally white dorsals. They are incredibly variable and don't be surprised when I end up with yet another phenotype of concinnus that I just could not resist!!!
I have a female with a black belly and yellow dorsal, as well as a female with a lime green dorsal and turquoise belly. One of my anerys have almost a solid black belly, and the other has a black belly with whitish speckling. They are highly variable. I have a few more that are all in between as well.
ConcinusMan
10-06-2009, 03:04 PM
Hmm... all of this from captive breeding? I suppose it would be better for getting variations like this from wild collected specimens if I get them from different geographical areas? I already mentioned all the very few variations I get from Clark Co., WA specimins.
Oh, and can someone provide a link to the picture of this "rainbow" you're talking about? I know that my concinnus actually do give off rainbow colors in the black areas right after they shed, but surely that's not what you mean.
aSnakeLovinBabe
10-06-2009, 03:13 PM
Here is the aptly named Rainbow Man!
http://i286.photobucket.com/albums/ll86/aSnakeLovinBabe/P1090535.jpg
http://i286.photobucket.com/albums/ll86/aSnakeLovinBabe/P1090546.jpg
http://i286.photobucket.com/albums/ll86/aSnakeLovinBabe/P1090530.jpg
http://i286.photobucket.com/albums/ll86/aSnakeLovinBabe/P1090547.jpg
GarterGeek
10-06-2009, 03:21 PM
Beautiful!!! :D
ConcinusMan
10-07-2009, 12:49 AM
Yeah, nice. Thanks for the pic. I thought you were talking about some new captive bred morph or something. It's not too difficult to find one in my area (Clark Co. WA) with a body that looks just like that. Undersides are like that on all of them around here. The only thing different from my local concinnus is the colorful head and neck area. The yellow on his upper labials, and behind his jaw would be blue or blue/white(like the uppermost underside) and mostly black head lacking all but a tiny bit of faded orange. There's something about that little detail difference in the head and neck that somehow makes the whole snake look prettier!
I sure do like the look of the Benton County OR ones though. Mostly or completely orange head and lots of orange on the side. Did you say you were attempting to breed one that was all or nearly black in the body but an all orange head? That would be so cool.
aSnakeLovinBabe
10-08-2009, 04:20 PM
Yeah, nice. Thanks for the pic. I thought you were talking about some new captive bred morph or something. It's not too difficult to find one in my area (Clark Co. WA) with a body that looks just like that. Undersides are like that on all of them around here. The only thing different from my local concinnus is the colorful head and neck area. The yellow on his upper labials, and behind his jaw would be blue or blue/white(like the uppermost underside) and mostly black head lacking all but a tiny bit of faded orange. There's something about that little detail difference in the head and neck that somehow makes the whole snake look prettier!
Yes, he is sooo pretty! The "yellow" on the labials is actually a lime green color. Hard for a camera to capture. It actually contrasts with the red so much it clashes and makes his cheeks glow!!!
I sure do like the look of the Benton County OR ones though. Mostly or completely orange head and lots of orange on the side. Did you say you were attempting to breed one that was all or nearly black in the body but an all orange head? That would be so cool.
Yes, I am working on something like that. I have two females, they are both nice, but one of which is pretty darned close to the goal already. Solid red head, very black body with only tiny red markings, and a lime green stripe. Now to just remove the rest of those red spots!!! The male that I had gotten with these two females was actually even MORE reduced red. But he never grew and he died. I see concinnus for sale every hamburg show, but the majority of them are mistreated and emaiciated, so it's rare to come across such a stunning specimen in great shape!
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