Why F/T mice(food)

[guidofatherof5]

It's not a garter but it brings the point home about not leaving live pray in with a snake. This Fox snake lost both its eye because the owner left the mouse in with the snake and didn't monitor the fed. This snake was brought to me today and will live out its life here on the Ranch.
I must admitt I too am captivated by constrictors when they feed. When I've had Bull snakes on the Ranch I have always fed them live mice. The person responsible for this injury could have avoided it if F/T were used. Seeing this snake brings home the reality of what live pray can do if not monitored.
http://www.thamnophis.com/thamphotos/data//500/medium/blind.jpg
http://www.thamnophis.com/thamphotos/data//500/medium/blind1.jpg

[GarterGeek]

Wow, what a tragedy. It's a beautiful snake though. I'm guessing wild-caught?

[guidofatherof5]

Wow, what a tragedy. It's a beautiful snake though. I'm guessing wild-caught?

I'm not sure. I don't know much about its history. I only know I hope it has a good future here at the Ranch.

[sirtalis01]

im sure it will have a great future in the ranch...couldnt be in better hands..

[ConcinusMan]

That is tragic. But I must say, that's one surgical rodent. No other injuries? Just missing eyes? That's amazing.

[guidofatherof5]

That is tragic. But I must say, that's one surgical rodent. No other injuries? Just missing eyes? That's amazing.

There is some damage to the skull. I'll post a photo after the snake gets settled in. I guess she's been off food for about 3 weeks so I'm not sure, she might need a chill sometime soon.

[ConcinusMan]

That is a gopher, bull, or pine snake isn't it? I've kept a few over the years. If well nourished, (it appears to be) 3 MONTHS without food is nothing to worry about. The thing that concerns me is that she obviously can't see. My bull snakes have always been visual hunters. Movement is what has always induced a feeding response and they have always refused dead food.

[Snakers]

gl with him a fox snake is something ive always wanted to see reminds me of the milks at my house

[ConcinusMan]

I believe you are right. It does appear to be a fox snake. It's just so similar to certain pattern/color phases/ size of western "gopher" or "bull" snakes. In fact, I believe they are VERY closely related. Gopher snake, pine snake, bull snake, fox snake, whatever you want to call it, there's very little difference other than location/habitat. Fox snakes are an endangered species however, while western gopher and bull snakes are abundant and not protected. How you concluded that it even comes close to a milk snake, I don't know. There are obvious differences. milk snakes are more like King snakes than bull, pine, fox, or gopher snakes. Most milk snakes I have encountered in the wild were under 2 feet long, brilliantly colored, secretive, and not very aggessive. Gopher snakes I have encountered in San Diego county, CA were usually fairly large, around 4 feet long, very well camouflaged in their desert/semi desert habitats and extremely aggressive when handled/captured/molested. They retain the "attitude" even after years of captivity. Even captive bred individuals are aggressive. But heck, what do I know. That's just my experience.

[Stefan-A]

In fact, I believe they are VERY closely related.
They're all Pituophis.


milk snakes are more like King snakesYeah, they're all Lampropeltis and quite similar, with the exception of the Eastern milk snake and the prairie kingsnake.


Pituophis and Lampropeltis are Lampropeltinine snakes. In other words, they are closely related.

[ConcinusMan]

I never got so much into the scientific categorizing of snakes but if I'm not mistaken, you have just told me that science confirms my statement of their relationships. Thanks Stefan. Everyone likes to feel like they are "right" sometimes.

At the same time, you're saying that Pituophis (gopher, bull, pine snakes) are closely related to King and milk snakes? (Lampropeltis)

Fascinating. I really didn't know that, even though I have kept members of both groups. What blows me away is that wild-caught adult CA king snakes I have kept (striped and ringed phases) were much better adapted and better tempered than any captive bred pet store individuals I have kept or encountered. I never understood why. Still don't.

[Stefan-A]

At the same time, you're saying that Pituophis (gopher, bull, pine snakes) are closely related to King and milk snakes? (Lampropeltis)
These two, Pantherophis, Arizona and a couple of others are very closely related. I have an article somewhere, where it was suggested that perhaps they all should even belong to the same genus.

[ConcinusMan]

I dunno about that. I think we need give the whole system a gradual transformation based on genetic reality instead of relying on physical similarities. It's pretty obvious that most species of Garter snakes are going to be very closely related genetically, but I do believe that some other (older) species that have been traditionally considered closely related may turn out to be fairly far from closely related. We need rely more on genetic relationships because that is where the reality of relationship lies. this will take many years, perhaps decades, of course, to sort out. Who knows, it might turn out that some species of Pituophis may be closer related genetically to some species of Lampropeltis and visa/versa. Just for example.

[Stefan-A]

This particular suggestion was based specifically on genetics, not external similarities.

[ConcinusMan]

Well good. That's how it should be.

[guidofatherof5]

Great news.
She started eating tonight(2 full size f/t mice). The guy I got her from said she's been off food for 3 weeks. I couldn't be happier. This is a big step to her continued recovery.

In addition to her I also recieved a male Eastern Fox Snake. He's a beauty. He ate 3 f/t mice tonight. They have really settled in fast.
This has been a good night.

[Charis]

That's really good to hear! I needed that too! Tikki refused food today, but all my snakes have been a bit upset, they are working on the road in front of our house & the whole house vibrated ALL day long. Have to see if I can get her to eat tonight after a few hours of peace.

[Brewster320]

How you concluded that it even comes close to a milk snake, I don't know. There are obvious differences. milk snakes are more like King snakes than bull, pine, fox, or gopher snakes. Most milk snakes I have encountered in the wild were under 2 feet long, brilliantly colored, secretive, and not very aggessive.

Eastern Milk snakes look very different from other milks, they look more live a corn snake or a great plains rat snake actually. There body and head shape though is what gives it away.

I can't believe it, that poor fox snake! Hav you seen those pictures out the bal python that was mauled by a rat? That picture and this one really give you an idea why we don't feed live adult rodents.

[ConcinusMan]

Oh yeah, It's terrible. Bad husbandry too. I had a gopher snake I collected from the wild in San Diego county that I occasionally fed live mice. Very small mice. She had no trouble making a quick strike and immediately constricting a small mouse to death but she was nearly 5 feet long and I always kept watch until the mouse was dead. Usually in the summer I fed her baby birds taken from European House Sparrow or starling nests.