New Garter owner!

[Melmo]

I just recently purchased a small Common Garter. First off, it is a beautiful snake with a bright, broken, orange stripe on each of its sides. It's about one foot and a half long. Being a Garter Snake keeper noob, I'm having "new animal anxiety". I know my stuff about keeping Easterns, but I've never actually owned one. I tried feeding an earthworm to it, but the Garter slithered away. It is probably just getting used to me being around it's cage (tomorrow, I'm putting black construction paper on the sides, so it will be more secure) a lot. I'd be sitting by the cage, then stand up, and suddenly the snake jumps a almost a foot high on the wall. I've put my hand in the cage after it settled down for a day, and slowly proceeded to picking it up, and it dashed away to the wall leaving musk on me. When I actually did get to pick it up it was slithering in my hands, relativley calmy, sometimes pulling back from a finger being too close. My main questions are: How do I get it to calm down around me, or is it a slow natural process? How long should I wait before feeding him for the first time? Thanks in advance.

[guidofatherof5]

For some it's a slow process and others it happens rather quickly. Be patient. It sounds like you're doing fine. Take baby steps with it. Try offering the food and then leaving the area. Put it in a dish the worm can't get out of. Put some dirt in with the worm and let nature take its course. Good luck. Keep us posted.

[Melmo]

Well, as a small little update: It doesn't freak out as much now when I tried to handle it, ad no musk. Once in my hands, it gets very calm. I'm going to leave it alone for a while, so it can get used to its surroundings.

[jitami]

Sounds like you're off to a good start. Welcome :)

[Melmo]

Alright, I don't want to post another thread. I do have some urgent issues with my garter. I've tried earthworms, but they have been refused. I recently found out that the store I bought it from was feeding minnows six times a week to the snake. I won't lie, I expected something like this to happen, but I tried to be optimistic. How should I fix this? I want to try to get it on earthworms supplied with calcium+d3. Maybe I should scent? Is there a way I can try to stop the thiaminase problem?

[GarterGeek]

How long have you had the snake? Sometimes it takes them a while to get used to the new surroundings. It may be a week or two before it eats.

You could try feeding it a minnow, then when it's all worked up in a feeding frenzy offer a worm that's been soaked in minnow water.

I hope this helps.

[Melmo]

I fed it a minnow. It was very eager to eat it, especially because that was all it's been fed for who knows how long. I've had it happen a lot, where I feed my animal one thing it's used to, and then it will eat anything. Hopefully this is one of those cases, but I'll try scenting. I will look for guppies to replace the minnows too. What supplement should I use to help reverse the effects of the thiaminase it has ingested? Thanks.

[guidofatherof5]

I use Rep-Cal.
Rep-Cal Rep-Cal Calcium - <i>Ultrafine</i> with Vitamin D3 - 4.1 oz (http://www.reptilesupply.com/product.php?products_id=31)

[Melmo]

I just managed to feed it a frozen thawed silverside. It seems to be very happy in its surroundings and is very willing to eat from tongs. Although I have one question, when I had the silverside in the tongs near the snake, it was digging its head into the dirt, and it looked like it was eating some of it. This is probably because little fish flavored water drops were dripping from the fish. What I'm worried about is the dirt it swallowed harming the snake. It is organic top soil mixed with Eco Earth, but it can probably still cause some problems I think. If there is any advice you can give, please go ahead and tell me. After swallowing the fish, the snake was opening its mouth occasionly, is this normal? It seemed to have stopped after the fish was far down its body. Thanks in advance.

[Mommy2many]

Welcome to the forum. My snakes all open their mouths after eating. My kids and I say it looks like the snake is saying "Yum". Probably pushing the food down more. Dace Minnows are ok for the snakes, no goldfish. The pet stores will pass off some goldfish as "minnows". You really want to find guppies if you can.

Try the frozen pinkies thawed or salmon. All of mine love salmon; even the W/C.

Good luck with your new friend!

[mustang]

WELCOME hey id love to c some pics of ur garter! :)

[Melmo]

Thanks for the reply! Yeah, I assumed the snake opening its mouth was just helping push down the fish more, just wasn't too sure. In the stores near me, there are guppies, but only Fancy Guppies, but they're just to expensive to keep buying though. I'll try scenting pinkies, because I know they help faster growth anyway.

[ConcinusMan]

Why no goldfish? I have always fed my T. s. concinnus goldfish for over 2 decades now. Of course I also feed them night crawlers and an occasional Pacific treefrog. They also love salmon or any fish really. Saltwater fish should be avoided but when used I always cook it first.

[ConcinusMan]

Sorry for the double post, but...

@ mustang : why do you want a coachwhip? (red phase, otherwise known as a red-racer). They are nasty boogers, remain aggressive and poorly adapt to captivity. I've seen them in Oregon and believe me, you don't want one. Dang thing outran me at full sprint in the open. I've only seen zoos keep them successfully in the long term.

@ melmo : Fast growth is not necessarily a good thing. It can lead to health problems and short life span. I am a firm believer in inducing a winter rest for any snake that does this normally in the wild, and not promoting rapid growth. It's bad for the snake. Also, I would never force or encourage my snakes to eat something they wouldn't normally eat in their natural habitat. mammals are NOT on the menu for garter snakes in the wild, generally speaking, and there's no good reason to do this.

[Stefan-A]

mammals are NOT on the menu for garter snakes in the wild, generally speaking, and there's no good reason to do this.
That would be incorrect, they are in fact on the menu for several species of garter snake in the wild, most notably T. sirtalis and T. elegans.

[ConcinusMan]

That's kinda why I said "generally speaking". I was saying that most garter snakes don't eat rodents.

There's plenty of T. sirtalis in my area but one would rather starve to death than to eat a rodent around here. They just won't do it unless coerced, scenting, or whatever you have to do, to get them to eat it. There's plenty of amphibians for a large T. sirtalis to eat around here and that's what they prefer. At the same time, I'm sure that there are certain areas of the continent and certain populations that do eat rodents, probably pinkies or fuzzies, but I think it's not near as common as those that do not eat rodents.

There are several species of garters in my area. The most common is T. ordinoides (Northwestern Garter snake). If you encounter one, there's usually thousands, perhaps more, in one small area. They absolutely will not even consider rodents. For one thing, the species is just too small, and they stick with worms and slugs mostly.

We also have T. elegans. Again, you will never get one collected from this area to eat rodents voluntarily. They love fish, frogs, and worms however.

The only T. sirtalis I have personally encountered in my area is T. s. concinnus, which is quite limited in range and has specific habitat requirements. It can only be found in undisturbed wetland habitat. They are our largest garter around here, but again, any individuals collected from the wild in this area will not touch rodents. There's way to much fish, frogs, worms, etc. to be found as food. I've seen member sirtalis01 I believe, who has captive bred concinnus and states that they are fed rodents. His appear to be very similar to Benton county, oregon wild snakes. Again, in the wild, even that location, they do not eat rodents. I don't know what else to say.



(http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&ct=res&cd=1&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.californiaherps.com%2Fsnakes% 2Fpages%2Ft.ordinoides.html&ei=CZjASpOsCY_WsgONjr1D&usg=AFQjCNEX5Y1OOjHshFyN8kFtazf2jtayQA)

[Stefan-A]

That's kinda why I said "generally speaking". I was saying that most garter snakes don't eat rodents.
I'm not convinced that even most would refuse. The specialists, like ordinoides, are far more likely to ignore rodents, but they are ultimately relatively few.


There's plenty of T. sirtalis in my area but one would rather starve to death than to eat a rodent around here. They just won't do it unless coerced, scenting, or whatever you have to do, to get them to eat it.Their behavior in captivity when confronted with non-native species, is not a very good indicator. It's also not unheard of for snakes to refuse to take domestic mice, but readily accept local species of rodents. Point is, refusal to behave a certain way in captivity, does not imply that the behavior is unnatural for the animal. The opposite is also true. For example, I have never had to scent a mouse or otherwise coerce a snake to get it to accept mice. In fact, nearly all my garters have displayed far more aggressive feeding behavior when offered mice, than any of the dozen or so species of fish I've offered. I still would not consider their behavior typical of their species based on their behavior while in my care.

I would also like to point out, that the location is known to be a far better predictor of diet, than the species of snake. Many of them are generalists and opportunists, after all.

[guidofatherof5]

In my area T.radix is everywhere and nightcrawlers are the main food source. I have had w/c radixes take unscented pinkies moments after being caught. I can't imagine a radix coming across a nest of baby mice and passing that food opportunity up. I think the same can be said for the other less abundant food sources(frogs, salamanders,etc) I think they are very opportunistic.

[ConcinusMan]

Well maybe that's just it. Could just be that the snakes around here have such an abundant supply of non-rodent food, that they just don't bother. I have tried to offer baby wild mice to my concinnus on several occasions. They were completely uninterested. However, if they smell fish, even from across the room, they go nuts. These snakes were captured in an area which is flooded most of the year.

[guidofatherof5]

Well maybe that's just it. Could just be that the snakes around here have such an abundant supply of non-rodent food, that they just don't bother. I have tried to offer baby wild mice to my concinnus on several occasions. They were completely uninterested. However, if they smell fish, even from across the room, they go nuts. These snakes were captured in an area which is flooded most of the year.

I know what you mean. In my colony of radixes the heads pop up out of the hides when they smell whatever is on the menu. If it's mice, lookout. They bum-rush me and grab the container of food.:D I have to do a finger count when I'm done. My radixes go crazy for mice. They are agressive with other foods but mice seem to get them all worked up and for many out of control.

[MichaelSmith]

The 'natural diet' discussion comes up from time to time, and it does not seem that anyone has done the work to give a definitive answer. Should garters only be fed what that subspecies eats in the wild? The garter I work with most is the eastern blackneck, which I'd put money does not eat mice in the wild. Yet, it's not so hard to switch them to mice using frog-scenting. Am I depriving them of essential nutrients or loading them up with too much of other nutrients? The only answer I can offer is that mine eat a rodent diet and seem quite healthy. And ... lots of people keep garters on a completely mouse diet with good results. I think even those species that take some mice in the wild do so opportunistically, so that a 100% mouse diet is probably "unnatural." That does not necessarily mean it is unhealthy.

I'd offer this speculation: could it be that in the course of speciation, many members of the genus Thamnophis may have evolved certain behavioral prey preferences, but perhaps their digestive systems have not changed in such a way that they (most, anyway) cannot thrive on a mouse diet. That would seem to be in line with the experiences of garter keepers that feed mice. Not that I 'know' this to be the case, but it seems like an interesting guess.

It would be nice if someone were able to do some controlled experimentation with one group being fed mice, and the other matched group being fed a diet based on whatever is known of their wild diet (from habitat, observation, stomach contents studies). Growth, mortality, reproduction, and other measures could be recorded and compared, to see what differences there may be.

[ConcinusMan]

Honestly that's a very level headed logic you have. You have to also understand that in the case of a snake such as T. s. concinnus is that even though it's only subspecies of Thamnophis sirtalis, (which with it sometimes breeds) it's really restricted in it's habitat needs. It is never found far from water, prefers wetlands near lakes streams, etc.,(loaded with small frogs) has a very limited range and seems this is a result of specializing and naturally, what's on the menu in wetlands? you don't have to guess.

However, just plain old T. sirtalis doesn't seem to very common around my area, but I have found a few over the years and like concinnus, they're on average much larger than any of our other 2 species, but I usually find them fairly far from water unlike concinnus. Seems to me that these individuals are likely to readily eat a few baby mice if they encounter a nest since there's not much frogs or fish around where I find them. So, if you look at the range of the eastern blackneck, (in spite of it's wet habitat and food preferences) is prone to drought so it's not such a stretch to imagine that they will eat mice too, if they encounter a vulnerable nest and their main food has become scarce.

You said "could it be that in the course of speciation, many members of the genus Thamnophis may have evolved certain behavioral prey preferences, but perhaps their digestive systems have not changed in such a way that they (most, anyway) cannot thrive on a mouse diet"

I would say that is very likely. I'm sure any Garter species could be maintained in perfect health on a rodent diet. Even if you had to chop it in little pieces for small ones, if they'll eat it and digest it, then there's no problem health wise. I'd say with a garter in captivity, even if it's far from the wild removed C.B. concinnus, it's a good idea to offer them a variety of foods including fish, tadpoles, frogs, worms, etc. if you have a source for that, and see what they prefer, instead of raising them exclusively on rodents from birth.

You are right though. Even if it's unnatural for concinnus (for example) to eat rodents, it doesn't mean it's unhealthy. If a c.b. loves them and is healthy, but after offering a variety of it's natural foods, feed it what it seems to prefer.