not eating - calcium?

[ephemerata]

Hi All.
Our Lovely Sugar the eastern garter snake is not eating.
Things to know to advise me:

He has eaten nothing for three weeks, and since late July or so has only eaten once a week, just one worm with reptivite or thawed natural trout. He usually eats up to 8 worms and a whole lid of fish twice a week.

He has 3 hard bumps near the end of his tail. 2 are above his cloaca and 1 is below. Both a herp store in town and a scientist friend think it is calcium. I plan to go back with Sugar to the herp store this weekend to see someone who knows more. They thought calcium and not fat (my first guess) because they are hard, slide around, and do not bother him when you push them. I've seen them appear in May or June and thought they were just digesting bones back from when i fed him some live goldfish.

He spent his first 6 months in an elementary school science lab before I rescued him in December (they did not want him anymore because all but he and the anoles had died). There he was fed only fatty minnows in the goldfish family and kept too cold and too humid. I've changed his diet (no more goldfish) and habitat of course.

He does not have mites and his mouth looks great on the inside.

He shed mid July, and has shed 3 times this summer. Seems almost full size. He is a little dull, since he hasn't shed for a month but my first guess is not that he is not eating due to an upcoming shed since he is so especially mobile and wanting contact. Usually him hiding out is the way I know he will shed, as his eyes barely cloud now and clear quickly.

His inside temp reads 84. He is in a room with doves so this room with a window unit is pretty stable at ambient 80ish. I do not have a heat lamp on him this time of year (it is 100 outside), but have a fluorescent bulb for light that puts out some heat. He is by a window where some heat might come in but does not get direct sunlight.

He is very active and happy, searching for food at his water dish and climbing branches. Behavior, which is social and sweet, is normal.
I continue to offer him worms with reptivite and trout every few days. He glides right over them, sometimes smelling it but not interested. I even tried live minnows in his bowl but he didn't go for it and they died overnight, a sad waste of life. Thinking he might want some variety, the herp store tried a pinkie but he has never been into those.

OK, that's my novel. I have the specialty vet number handy but wanted to try you all before i shell out the big bucks! thanks:o

[Stefan-A]

My recommendation is to contact a vet.

[ephemerata]

My recommendation is to contact a vet.
OK, i have made a vet appointment.

Has anyone ever had a snake with calcium deposits or something similar to what i have described? can it be treated? :confused:

[drache]

Jen
I just got to this
has there been any news? did you do the vet visit?
how is Sugar doing?

[ephemerata]

Jen
I just got to this
has there been any news? did you do the vet visit?
how is Sugar doing?

Update on Sugar:
Last week I took Sugar to the specialty reptile vet who looked closer at two things: the bumps and his mouth.

The bumps were my first concern and suspected cause. The xray was to look for metabolic bone disease - specifically bone spur or bony fusion or a bone infection. At his first glance he thought the spine looked OK, but is having their expert take a second look. I am getting a copy - a snake spine is beautiful!:)

This was the surprise because the pet store said his mouth was fine...but when in a dark room with a flashlight, you could see tiny slightly red blood spots/flushed area of erosion in his mouth. To get a culture to know how to treat it, they had to do a rinse with a tube of sterile liquid all the way down to his lungs, then get it out and take a culture. I had to think hard about allowing this seemingly invasive way to get a culture be done but went ahead because they said it might wash out whatever is wrong too & help it heal. I'll know next week and will probably get whatever kind of antibiotics needed - which can be oral or a shot !?! :eek: who ever heard of giving a snake a shot? i won't do it.

When they returned him and I asked about THAT smell (he musked them!) they said they had to turn him upside down and massage the liquid out, along with stretch him out for the xray. so the little guy went through a lot. BTW even though he musked them the vet and the assistant fell in love with Sugar. Even when the macaw in the next room was having a fit he was calm, cool, collected. Everyone who meets him is enchanted and says they have never met a nicer snake!;)

A good thing is that when I got home and took him swimming to get the smells and liquids off he pooped right away in the warm water: he had not done that for weeks, maybe a month, since he has not been eating.

He is still not eating, in fact an hour ago I tried fresh trout from whole foods and he smelled it but would not indulge even though he acts hungry. The vet did recommend i provide more whole body meals for him (as a vegetarian i was getting into the shortcut of thawed fish over live alternating with live worms) to up his calcium over his phosphorus and increase sunlight. I also brought back his heat pad underneath since it is cooler here this week (less than 100).

..Also, a different post but much debated, the vet said that handling Sugar and cleaning his space is Ok when pregnant... but he is also like me and into probiotics and not germaphobe..probably depends on who you talk to.

cheers:)

[drache]

:eek: who ever heard of giving a snake a shot? i won't do it.
I've given several snakes antibiotic injections, and it's kind of less stressful than forcing their mouth open to slide a tube down their throat
if you have to administer oral antibiotics, you should ask whether you can mix it in with some kind of carnivore care recovery formula and just tube feed him the food while you're at it

He is still not eating, in fact an hour ago I tried fresh trout from whole foods and he smelled it but would not indulge even though he acts hungry. The vet did recommend i provide more whole body meals for him (as a vegetarian i was getting into the shortcut of thawed fish over live alternating with live worms) to up his calcium over his phosphorus and increase sunlight.
some of my difficult eaters were won over by the frozen SF Bay Brand silversides from the petshop, and those are whole fish

Also, a different post but much debated, the vet said that handling Sugar and cleaning his space is Ok when pregnant... that's good news

[ephemerata]

I've given several snakes antibiotic injections, and it's kind of less stressful than forcing their mouth open to slide a tube down their throat
if you have to administer oral antibiotics, you should ask whether you can mix it in with some kind of carnivore care recovery formula and just tube feed him the food while you're at it

some of my difficult eaters were won over by the frozen SF Bay Brand silversides from the petshop, and those are whole fish
that's good news

thanks rhea
vet just called and culture is fine, there is no reason why sugar is not eating & no need for antibiotics... so i'll keep at trying to feed him & gather a poop- will try a few varieties of fish like the one you say and maybe guppies, so hard though with their beautiful swooshing rainbow tails like aqueous peacocks

they said they could forcefeed him in 2 weeks if he still did not eat, any opinions on this?

[drache]

thanks rhea
vet just called and culture is fine, there is no reason why sugar is not eating & no need for antibiotics... so i'll keep at trying to feed him & gather a poop- will try a few varieties of fish like the one you say and maybe guppies, so hard though with their beautiful swooshing rainbow tails like aqueous peacocks

they said they could forcefeed him in 2 weeks if he still did not eat, any opinions on this?
you're welcome
the SF Bay brand silversides are frozen
many petshops have feeder guppies, which look nothing like the peacocks of the sea you're thinking of - think same shape body in a dull colour with a relatively short no-nonsense tail fin
to me, force feeding is very last resort
sometimes it helps to just back off for a while, leave them alone, let them get hungry and bored in some quiet darkish corner of the house with not much traffic, and then leave them something

[Odie]

to me, force feeding is very last resort
sometimes it helps to just back off for a while, leave them alone, let them get hungry and bored in some quiet darkish corner of the house with not much traffic, and then leave them something

My Red took 2 months off from eating this summer but eat again now :D

[ephemerata]

UPDATE: Sugar STILL has not eaten. It has been since mid July. Help me decide what to do. I have never had a snake before so am calling on your expertise.
If he had not eaten now is the time in which the vet recommends force feeding him...he is real thin now but active, searching for food at night. He is so sweet and just one year old; I don't want to do invasive procedures if it is really just his time

The latest developments and what the vet recommends:
His fecal float and other test both came out clear of parasites.
The xray expert says his vertebral column is fine. The bumps are soft tissue.
Choice 1: Take a soft tissue biopsy to see what it is since he still has these unexplained bumps.
Choice 2: Pursue that he has some type of infection and give him antibiotic shots. I have noticed a clicking from his head. The clicking does not necessarily seem to correspond with his breathing. It is almost as frequent as a metronome. However a culture showed he was fine.

Of course I have been hopeful I don't have to do anything invasive and HE WILL JUST EAT - trying to feed him thawed fish and I have been putting a live worm in his tank while it is still dark out in the morning for a few hours. He expresses interest, pushing it with his snout and smelling it, but not going for it.
Another logistical concern: I have spent $300 at the exotic pet vet so far..and haven't learned anything other than 'he is fine'

[guidofatherof5]

Have you tried guppies? Put the snake on a small tall container that put him in close proximity to the fish. Put the live guppies(10 or more) in, no water. This was worked on countless non-eaters.

You could also try earthworms. They are differnt than nightcrawlers and my snakes have proven that to me. I keep a ready supply of those pale looking little worm close. Between the guppies and the earthworms I would say my success rate of around 99%.
If he's showing signs of interest you may not have to force feed.
Good luck and keep us posted.


I quickly read this thread and hope I'm suggesting anything you have already tried.

[Herps 4 Life]

Hi Jen, thank you for the comment!
the bumps may look similar, my garter wasn't eating but because he was new and due to the changes he had to experience.. Like Steve said guppies are great, they worked for mine too! Have you tried them yet?
Keep us posted, I can't stand to see one of my animals getting to starve, hope little Sugar will start to eat soon!

[ephemerata]

Have you tried guppies? Put the snake on a small tall container that put him in close proximity to the fish. Put the live guppies(10 or more) in, no water. This was worked on countless non-eaters.

.

OK, I finally found guppies today. I put Sugar in a tall plastic container, like the kind for storing spaghetti, then poured the guppies into a strainer, then tapped them in. The ten guppies just laid on him and were plastered on the bottom and side with some but little movement. He just looked out at me like, "why did you put me in here?" I will give them a rest then maybe try them in a centimeter of water so they move more?:confused:
Yesterday I also found some earthworms in my yard, he did not care for those as an alternative to his usual nightcrawlers.
A few days ago I also tried the silversides like Rhea suggested a while back. He did not like those on a plate on a towel on my lap (like I usually would do) or in his tank while it was still dark and he was active, and I assume, looking for food by the way he perches at his waterbowl. At least my cats love them since I had to get a huge package..
I guess if I don't get any more magic tips on the guppies I've tried everything then I need to take him to the vet and begin forcefeeding tomorrow since it has been since midJuly since he has eaten. But I have very mixed feelings about this...I'm not taking care of the cause, just the symptom...:( This is sad

[ephemerata]

I don't feel sure enough to act tomorrow on the vet's choices of getting a skin biopsy and force feeding so I'll let one more week pass of trying to get him to eat ..

[Mommy2many]

Good luck with him. Have you tried the salmon? I know you said the other kind of fish. Keeping fingers crossed!

[MichaelSmith]

Hi All.
Our Lovely Sugar the eastern garter snake is not eating.
[snip]

He spent his first 6 months in an elementary school science lab before I rescued him in December (they did not want him anymore because all but he and the anoles had died). There he was fed only fatty minnows in the goldfish family and kept too cold and too humid. I've changed his diet (no more goldfish) and habitat of course.

[snip]:o

Hi - what was this snake eating between the time you rescued him and this summer? If there was something -even goldfish - he was taking, then I'd try that again rather than force-feeding. You might then gradually be able to shift over to something healthier.

Do you have a photo? You're sure it's an eastern garter?

Hope things get better.

[ephemerata]

I am posting two photos:
one of Sugar from the side today, I have counted 8 bumps
another eating his last big meal in July, to see whole body and if he is an eastern garter
Thanks to all for their ideas - will try anything

[Snakers]

omg that's a beautiful eastern

[ephemerata]

Good luck with him. Have you tried the salmon? I know you said the other kind of fish. Keeping fingers crossed!

I tried salmon with Sugar last night and, although he seemed to be attracted to it more than anything I've tried so far, he just went up to it, rubbed his nose on it, then slid right past it.
My cats sure like this experiment in buying fish that don't get eaten.

He has four guppies I saw him watching in his waterbowl this morning during his active, dawn, hunting time that my husband will take out if they are not gone in an hour, which is likely.

Besides not eating, I am still hearing a frequent click (every few seconds) and count 8 bumps along his whole body. He can't feel very well but is sweeter than ever, crawling up into my hand.

[ephemerata]

omg that's a beautiful eastern
and his personality is even more amazing

funny, before him I did not know snakes had personalities

now we just have to get him eating - keep sending ideas please - or if it is his time let it be easy

[ephemerata]

Hi - what was this snake eating between the time you rescued him and this summer? If there was something -even goldfish - he was taking, then I'd try that again rather than force-feeding. You might then gradually be able to shift over to something healthier.

Do you have a photo? You're sure it's an eastern garter?

Hope things get better.

I'll un-liberate a goldfish from my pond soon. Back before I knew goldfish weren't the best diet, we used to have a snake act (along with a hoop jumping cat trick) for visitors to my in-home museum where I would hold the fish from tail and Sugar the snake would eat it in a few seconds. The kids loved it. Maybe he will remember that and do it again.

[ephemerata]

Sugar ate three earthworms!
He has broken his fast...hasn't eaten since mid July!

Gardening today I found some juicy, wild, wriggling earthworms, all fat from organic soil, and I put one in his tank. It was gone when I checked a few minutes later and I could not find it ... Wasn't too sure til took him out and while he was basking in the afternoon sun up in the avocado tree, I dangled another in front and he ate it up! I was so excited when he went for it I got goose bumps. Since then he ate one more in his tank ... or at least it has disappeared

Yahoo:)

[guidofatherof5]

Sugar ate three earthworms!
He has broken his fast...hasn't eaten since mid July!

Gardening today I found some juicy, wild, wriggling earthworms, all fat from organic soil, and I put one in his tank. It was gone when I checked a few minutes later and I could not find it ... Wasn't too sure til took him out and while he was basking in the afternoon sun up in the avocado tree, I dangled another in front and he ate it up! I was so excited when he went for it I got goose bumps. Since then he ate one more in his tank ... or at least it has disappeared

Yahoo:)

Great job, Jen & Sugar. I have found feeding too much all at once to a long time non-eater can cause them to regeurgitate. Take it easy for a day or so. Check to make sure they are pooping. After that, pile it on, someone has some catching up to do.

[ephemerata]

Great job, Jen & Sugar. I have found feeding too much all at once to a long time non-eater can cause them to regeurgitate. Take it easy for a day or so. Check to make sure they are pooping. After that, pile it on, someone has some catching up to do.

Thank you, Steve. It has not passed yet so I will hold on more. That is good to know.
cheers!:)

[Charis]

That is wonderful news! I'll bet you were pretty jazzed!

[NikkiSixx]

Exciting! good you got him eatng again!:)

[drache]

great news, Jen!
what a relief - whew!